Perrin as Lord of Two Rivers ( who loves it and who hates it)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Still, not set up that way in the first couple of books. Which is what you do in series.

 

Um ... Min had a viewing with Perrin and "a broken crown" in TEoTW, ch 15.  That's early in the very first book.  Faile was introduced in book 3, and her connection to Saldaean royalty established in book 4.  Thats all in the first third of the series ...

 

Seems like it was "set up that way", early on in the series to me.

 

Assuming the world remains in its current physical configuration after Tarmon Gai'don, Perrin will likely end up ruling a nation that stretches from what is now the Blight, south all the way to Ghealdan, and includes what is currently Saldaea, the currently unoccupied stretch of forest north of Baerlon along the River Arinelle (possibly opened to Seanchan settlers), the Two Rivers, and Ghealdan.

 

Roughly, this area: 

 

Perhaps in future times it will be known as "The Boot of Perrin".

[Guest silver89]

Wonder what Elayne would have to say about that map. Dare say she would finally be able to use her collection of swear words. :)

 

If something like this was to happen there would be war. Perrin would be given a title say Lord of Two Rivers, but would hold those lands at the sufference of the Crown of Andor. He could still be King of Saldea and Ghealdan but not of any lands that historically belong to Andor.

 

So his list of ranks would be like King of Saldea, Overlord of Ghealdan, the King of Wolves, Lord of the Two Rivers, Companion of the Dragon etc. ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wonder what Elayne would have to say about that map. Dare say she would finally be able to use her collection of swear words.

 

Actually, I'm betting Elayne would be fine with it, after some negotiation.  There's a big difference between having someone rebel against you, and letting certain territory go because you weren't really controlling it anyway.  Consolidating her position in Cairhien will be much more valuable than trying to hold on to the Two Rivers, especially if she knows that the new ruler will be an ally, which Perrin certainly would be if Elayne just let the Two Rivers go.  It would be a brilliant political move by Elayne ... she gets a free ally and buffer against the Seanchan, and doesn't really lose anything ... the Two Rivers hadn't seen a tax collector in generations.

[Guest silver89]

Very true, it would be a nice move on her part. Though it would be hard for any ruler to give up any land. It would set a bad precident so soon into her reign, unless as you stated, she grabbed onto Cairhein with a firm grip. Elayne would have to have a massive victory on another front before hand otherwise she would be commiting political suicide on a grand scale.

 

Even with a gain on the Cairhein front she would face massive opposition from amoung her own nobles and so new to the throne that can be a dangerous thing.

[VampireGoat]

I don't see there being much of a confrontation between Elayne and Perrin over two rivers, course that all depends on Elayne. Perrin will in most likely case bow to andor queen and ask for forgiveness while explaining the situation given the chance, not something Elayne is likely to go to bonkers over. If, however Elayne goes right into a hiss fit then sparks may well fly.

 

On the flip side, morgase's renouncing of the throne of andor is far from official and in writing which means that technicaly she is still queen of andor and in service of the Aybara's. Though it'll never come

into play, it's possible to see Perrin with simular ruling of Andor as he has over the errr over country :P(name escapes me at this particular moment).

 

Of course it all boils down to the facts concerning what perrin has done for andor and its queen

 

a) protected her lands from a trolloc army

b) removed an unauthorised white cloak incursion

c) saved the queen/queen mum on two occasion and placing her in his personal care

d) played a strong clearing cairhen's throne for elaynes rise, admitedly it was mainly rands doing but without perrin playing fetch the true ruler back from AS and faile's spying she'd have once less throne to claim

e) Saved the father of her children(tho that came later)and being his close friend could really makes things awkward if she starts dishing out the punishments.

 

Of course we know how well elayne gets on with showing gratitude, just ask mat, but then again she had reasons for disliking mat, albiet shallow ones. None of thoose however apply to Perrin. Given the list she should be doing all bar taking him to her bedroom, and lets be fair even that shouldn't be off the cards given Rand's throwing himself around and Faile was probably minutes away from doing the same.

 

Of course lets not forget that it's not just Alliandra(sp?) in his company but Berelain as well and of course his wife, current daughter-hier to saldea.

 

Heck who's the one who should be doing the kneeling at this rather fateful meeting?

 

On the topic of the map, its soon going to be a matter of devide of what's owned by either rand mat or perrin, with the AS in their little corner and with elayne in andor(lets face it she may end up being queen of cairhien but its still rands) jumping up and down going 'look im a real queen!'.

 

In all fairness though it's more about emporers and empresses these days since nobody really owns a single country anymore that isn't somebody elses underling or at least going to be. Murandy and Far madding have pretty much declared themselves muppet countries, and im not sure what Far Madding even classes as. The Borderlands will be the last free kings providing it's just Tenobia that bites the bullet.

 

 

Oh and yea i like Perrin as a lord :P

 

 

[Kass]

*spoiler for book 11*

 

All this of him becoming a king really just doesn't sit well with me :-\. I am sorry to say but I don't think he has it in him, I mean come on look what a mess he is just not caring about Rand just saying he has to save Faile, and he tells Tam that Rand is perfectly alright just after getting his hand cut off. That right there is something that shows he doesn't really care for who he is ruling. I can see him, once again, rushing off, risking the lives of his supposed subjects :( to save his presciouse Faile who put her self in a pile of quicksand. This is not responisble or thoughtful action. All it shows is just why Perrin should not be a lord.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You know ... people talk about him haring off after Faile, risking his people, blah blah blah (and while I am responding to your statement, Kass, I'm certainly not singling you out as the only one). 

 

But if you look at what actually happened, he took pretty good care of his people while he was going after her.  He forged a diplomatic alliance with the Seanchan (which should prove very important in a post Tarmon Gai'don world), accomplished the task he had been set by Rand (collecting Masema), and broke two potentially dangerous armies (Masema's rabble and the Shaido).  All while accomplishing his own goal of rescuing his wife. 

 

I'd say he has exactly what it takes to be an effective ruler.  Especially considering that he's done all this with no formal command education, all before the age of 25.

[Guest silver89]

What RAW said^. Can't really add anything to his statement, can only agree. ;D

[Kass]

Hmmm, I can see what you mean about that but still, lying completely to one of your lead advisors, and I see no real good care done for his people, but I could just be that I am being blinded by stubborness, please point out specific places where he does this. As for the Senchaen, you must notice that Mat accomplished something like that with marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons ::) so the thing with the Saenchan could probably be taken off that list, unless it backfires in his face but I am keeping it simple for the time being. You must also see that the main real reason, that I remember, it has been nearly a year since I have read book 11 so I could be wrong, that Perrin acctualy went after the Shaido was because of Faile, not because it would help Rand or the greater good. Like I said, stupid reason, and no offense meant, stupid leader.

 

No worries I got what you meant. Sorry if I am being a bit repetative :-[.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I see no real good care done for his people, but I could just be that I am being blinded by stubborness, please point out specific places where he does this.

 

How many of his people died in the battle at Malden?  Not very many.  He didn't just throw them in blindly, he waited, even though it was killing him inside, until he had a truly workable plan.

 

As for the Senchaen, you must notice that Mat accomplished something like that with marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons  so the thing with the Saenchan could probably be taken off that list, unless it backfires in his face but I am keeping it simple for the time being.

 

I fail to see how Mat's marriage to Tuon makes Perrin's alliance any less valuable.  The more friendly connections between the Seanchan leaders and Randland leaders, the more likely it is that war can be avoided after Tarmon Gai'don.  Keep in mind Nicola's Foretelling stating that after Tarmon Gai'don, "the world [is] not done with battle. The land divided by the return [thats the Seanchan], and the guardians [Asha'man] balance the servants [Aes Sedai]. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."  With the future teetering on the edge, every friendly alliance will matter, and Perrin has made one, with one of the top Seanchan military leaders.

 

You must also see that the main real reason, that I remember, it has been nearly a year since I have read book 11 so I could be wrong, that Perrin acctualy went after the Shaido was because of Faile, not because it would help Rand or the greater good. Like I said, stupid reason, and no offense meant, stupid leader.

 

That was what he said to himself, and certainly it was his main personal motivation.  But even in the depths of his own personal despair, he did not abandon his other responsibilities.  Yes, he said things like, "The world can go to the Pit of Doom if I don't get Faile back" blah blah blah.  But actions speak louder than words.  I'd rather have a leader who occasionally said something stupid, but cared for his people with his actions, than a leader who said all the right things, but let his people get screwed.  Remember, Faile was not the only one taken.  Perrin was also rescuing the Queen of Ghealdan, an important ally for Rand, and someone he was sworn to protect.  And he was clever enough to use the battle to basically get two of his enemies to kill each other (Masema's army and the Shaido).

[Covenant]

As for Perrin's confrontation with the queen of Andor I don't imagine alot of groveling is going to take place. I see it more as a "you did exactly squat for us for as long as I've been alive.  You're like a child with a toy she hasn't so much as thought about for years until someone tries to take that toy away. Then she throws a temper tantrum because someone has taken something from her she never really valued in the first place. Get over yourself your majesty"

 

As for the Senchan alliance he made a deal never to raise the flag of Manatheran again...but has anyone concidered that maybe he'll be the "regent" of that province, ruling in the name of the empress (may she live forever) In light of the fact that Mat will be right at the top of the high blood food chain and the good feelings all around that Perrin has garnered with the Senchan that seems like a fairly likely scenario.

[DemandredFO]

I see the borderlands being split between Perrin and Lan.  I think all four rulers will be biting the dust, hopefully Algamar won't join them in dying.  Perrin will have saldea, Ghealdon and the two rivers, Lan, if he lives, will get Sheinar, Candor and Arafel.  Elayne has the rest of andor, Cairhien and maybe Murandy but who knows with Murandy.  As for Tear and Illian, I could see them becoming one country or remaining two, it depends on what happens to Mattin Stephaneous.  I have no idea what will happen with the Gaurdians and the "servants".  Mat won't rule anything, to borrow what Moiraine said to Thom, a quiet life would kill him.  Rand, if he survives, will probably take a century-long vacation, I mean barring getting killed he has 6 of them in front of him.

As for Perrin's destiny not being set up, I'll refer you to what others have said.  And isn't that one reason people read books, to be surprised with unforseen plot twists.

As for Egwene, I think she'll just generally be pissed, at least at first, Because I doubt she'll have much control over rulers.  thats my 2cents

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm sorry, but Lan is not going to be the King of anything.  First off, for alot of reasons, he's the least likely character to survive Tarmon Gai'don.  Second, he has no claim to any throne but Malkier's, and Malkier is not coming back.  Third, he doesn't want the job, so even if he survives, and all three other rulers die, he won't be taking the job.

[DemandredFO]

I agree but there is a chance that he could survive.  However, I don't think everything will be neatly divided into who gets what.  I mean, aside from Nicola's foretelling, Randland will be in serious need of a redecorater after TG and with the death or disappearance of the dragon all treaties of his making will end.

[CUBAREY]

Let's talk of the world after T.G.  Perrin will not be king of Saldea(sic) he will be Prince Regent (as Mat is Prince of the Raven's in Seanchen Empire).  Perrin will be Lord of Two Rivers nominally a part of Andor but pretty independent. He is liege lord of Queen of Ghaldea(sic) not king or emperor of it.  His friendly relations with the Seanchen probably means that in time he can establish a buffer state between Sanchen and Andor. This is not necessarily all that great especially for his descendents that might not have the personal relationships that Perrin has with the monarchs of Andor-Caihern and the Seanchen Empire.

 

Also Elayne may be a bit of a ninny but she is not stupid when it comes to dealing with other  royals. The Prince Regent of Saldea will be talked to differently by Elayne then she would otherwise talk to  the Lord of the Two Rivers.  The upshot is that Perrin is going to have a lot of titles and allegiences that might cause him (and will definately cause his descendents) a lot of grief.

 

As to how the world will be devided up after T.G. the love combo of the First of Mayene and Galad will have their two cents to contribute. Mayene is small but with the Cildren of the Light on her side the First will be a player.  Also everybody seems to forget that through his father Galad has a claim to the Caihern Thrown (The fact that Elayne is the head of house Trakand really does not stop Galad from having the best legitimate claim to the thrown of Caihern as the oldest hier of his father). 

 

After T.G. the blight will also likely recede so if he survives Lan could be the king of a reconstituted Malkier.  Also depending on the actual losses to the Borderland royals at T.G. the free borderland states might concievably devide themselves up between Lan (Melkier) and Faile-Perrin (Saldea).  Lan's reluctance in leading men into the blight and in attempting to reconstitute Malkier are due to his wish not to lead men in a futile attempt that has no chance of succeeding. After T.G. this will no longer be true especially if the blight recedes.

 

In the centuries to come after T.G. the descemdents of Mat,Tuan, Rand, Perrin,Faile, Avi, Galad, Lan, Naydiene(sic) and Min will pass the time trying to kill each other to gain control of Randland.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9sic)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Let's talk of the world after T.G.  Perrin will not be king of Saldea(sic) he will be Prince Regent (as Mat is Prince of the Raven's in Seanchen Empire).

 

I'm sorry ... do you have some information we don't?  The Seanchan system is nothing like the Saldaean system ... we don't know the specific rules of succession, but it is indicated during Nynaeve's testing for Accepted that common practice in the Borderlands is that married couples rule jointly.  To quote, from Lan:

 

As my wife, how could you not be Queen? We are Malkieri here, not southlanders.  You were crowned in the Seven Towers at the same time we exchanged rings.

 

(TGH ch 23)

 

Three of the four Borderland monarchs happen to be single right now (Ethenielle is a widow, Easar Togita a widower, and Tenobia, of course, has never been married).  But Paitar Nachiman's wife Menuki is Queen of Arafel, not First Consort or some such nonsense.  Every indication is that, married to Faile, Perrin shares her place in the line of succession, and with the deaths of Queen Tenobia and Davram Bashere, Perrin would be King of Saldaea, ruler of that nation every bit as much as his wife and Queen.

 

As to how the world will be devided up after T.G. the love combo of the First of Mayene and Galad will have their two cents to contribute. Mayene is small but with the Cildren of the Light on her side the First will be a player.  Also everybody seems to forget that through his father Galad has a claim to the Caihern Thrown (The fact that Elayne is the head of house Trakand really does not stop Galad from having the best legitimate claim to the thrown of Caihern as the oldest hier of his father).

 

Yeah, except Galad has no interest in ruling Cairhien, and obviously does not consider it his duty either, so thats not going to happen.  Plus the Children will be all but destroyed after TG, so they won't be players at all.

 

If Elayne Trakand doesn't eventually rule Cairhien, Caraline Damodred will.  And, married to the King of Tear, they'll make a powerful combination.

 

After T.G. the blight will also likely recede so if he survives Lan could be the king of a reconstituted Malkier.

 

Malkier. Is. Not. Coming. Back.

 

The Fourth Age is a new Age, not the old one regurgitated.  Lan is not interested in resurrecting Malkier, only avenging it.

[The Dragon Reborn]

The Seanchan system is nothing like the Saldaean system ... we don't know the specific rules of succession, but it is indicated during Nynaeve's testing for Accepted that common practice in the Borderlands is that married couples rule jointly.  To quote, from Lan:

As my wife, how could you not be Queen? We are Malkieri here, not southlanders.  You were crowned in the Seven Towers at the same time we exchanged rings.

 

Are you certain that everything shown in that ter'angreal can be taken as fact, I remember I got straight fairly quickly when I made that assumption! I've come to believe that it's a combination of the truth and what the person in it wants to be the truth.

Given the person we know Nynaeve to be, it's just as possible the her stubbornness not to be treated as inferior brought that line out of 'imaginary Lan'

[Wayhey]

...Perrin will be the Prince Consort to the Queen of Saldea.  It's very likely Bashere and Tenobia will die, perhaps all the borderland rulers.

 

Isn't it convenient that Saldea is directly north from the Two Rivers?

:)

[Wayhey]

Never mind that, remember that Perrin has bigger claims than Lord of the Two Rivers these days...Alliandre's oath of fealty gives him rights to Ghealdan. Also there is the ties an titles that marrying Faile provided....Hell, he could end up a King!

 

He is already!  The Wolf King! :)

[Wayhey]

 

Perhaps in future times it will be known as "The Boot of Perrin".

 

Looks more like a sock.

[Lune]

It looks more like some kind of animal leg actually. Saldaea's the haunch and the rest of it is the leg and bendy bits.

 

Anyway, truth be told I don't see Perrin as King material. He's got the advantage of being Ta'veren, but that is as big a disadvantage as it is an advantage if Rand is any indication. He's been reluctant to lead unless pulled into it, and only really stepped up when Faile was kidnapped. Who's to say he'll manage to keep up the pace now that he has his wife back? As for ruling Saldaea, it's all good he can go head to head with Trollocs but culturally? Like I've said before, he's incompatible, and if the Saldaeans we've met are any indication, they won't put up with his quiet wishy-washy. He'll have to settle for Prince Consort I reckon.

[Wayhey]

I'm sorry, but Lan is not going to be the King of anything.  First off, for alot of reasons, he's the least likely character to survive Tarmon Gai'don.  Second, he has no claim to any throne but Malkier's, and Malkier is not coming back.  Third, he doesn't want the job, so even if he survives, and all three other rulers die, he won't be taking the job.

 

Why wouldn't Malkier come back?  The land was swallowed by the Blight, and since Rand will likely win TG, wouldn't the Blight completely disappear afterward?  Now if Lan doesn't survive (along with many of his fellow Malkieri in exile) then of course forget it, but it could happen.  I think Lan will die only if Nynaeve dies.

[Wayhey]

Malkier. Is. Not. Coming. Back.

 

The Fourth Age is a new Age, not the old one regurgitated.  Lan is not interested in resurrecting Malkier, only avenging it.

 

Sometimes things don't work out as planned.  Lan never intended to marry anyone either.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Are you certain that everything shown in that ter'angreal can be taken as fact, I remember I got straight fairly quickly when I made that assumption! I've come to believe that it's a combination of the truth and what the person in it wants to be the truth.

Given the person we know Nynaeve to be, it's just as possible the her stubbornness not to be treated as inferior brought that line out of 'imaginary Lan'

 

No, I'm not.  Thats why I corroborated it with the example of Paitar Nachiman.  To add to the equation, Min's viewing of the Broken Crown around Perrin (separate from her Falcon viewings of Faile), and Bashere's attitude toward Perrin.

 

Also, we do know that the testing ter'angreal can pull real details from the real world.  Like Sharina Melloy.

 

Any one of these things alone would not be proof.  Indeed, together they are not absolute proof, but they constitute a pretty strong case.

 

Sometimes things don't work out as planned.  Lan never intended to marry anyone either.

 

He didn't plan to, but he secretly wanted to all along.  That much is evident from his interactions with Edeyn Arrel.

 

I think he honestly doesn't want to be a King.  He fights his war out of duty, but Malkier is dead.  Beyond avenging her, he does not have any further duty.

 

That is only my opinion, but I think its correct.

 

Frankly ... I'm not entirely sure (as I've expressed elsewhere) that the post Tarmon Gaidon world will really resemble, physically, the current world at all, so most of these questions may be moot points.  I think its gonna be alot worse than some people think ...

[DemandredFO]

I agree with Lune, Perrin is NOT king material.  As I've said before he is ONLY a moderately good leader because he has pulled people around him with Ta'veren.  When he is no longer Ta'veren he will want to fade away.  He reminds me of Frodo, by  that I mean after he came back from his great adventure he wanted to and in time he did fade away.