The DO and Body Swaps - Does this power only exist while the Bore is Open?

[wvlr]

Just curious if this has been brought up before or to RJ and if there was an answer.

[Luckers]

Its uncertain if the link was formed by the cross of balefire, or by the cross of One Power and True Power, however the first seems more likely given that the True Power and the One Power must surely have clashed in the War of Power. In that case the Dark Ones influence is unnessasary, and the status bore is irrelevant.

[RobertAlexWillis]

On the off chance that you were talking about transmigrating a soul (such as has occurred with Aginor/Osangar/Dashiva, Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima, and Lanfear/Cyndane), then it is very unlikely that it could be done, at least in the same way, when the Bore is non-existent.  RJ's quotes on that subject imply direct intervention by Shia'tan, within a limited time frame, and when the Bore does not exist, it seems that Shai'tan cannot act within the Pattern at all.

 

As far as I know, the question has not been asked of him directly (and, to my knowledge, no one has asked him about the Moridin-Rand body-swap idea either).

[wvlr]

Sorry Luckers for my misuse of the Body Swap term.    As Robert guessed, I ment the DOs  transmigrating of the Forsaken and just did not word it correctly.  My BAD!

 

Thanks to both.

 

 

[Mat is Better]

What you said was perfectly clear.  The DO is not responsible for Rand and Moridins' current predicament.

[Majsju]

What you said was perfectly clear.  The DO is not responsible for Rand and Moridins' current predicament.

 

Well, the DO is indirectly responsible, since I strongly doubt anyone would be able to access TP if there was not at least a small opening in the Bore. And without TP, no funky channeling disorder.

[Luckers]

Sorry Luckers for my misuse of the Body Swap term.    As Robert guessed, I ment the DOs  transmigrating of the Forsaken and just did not word it correctly.   My BAD!

 

Thanks to both.

 

 

 

In that case Robert is incorrect. Whilst we have never seen the specific events that are suggested in the Rand/Moridin body swap, we have seen many things influence the movement of soul beyond just the direct action of the Dark One. Here is a list of the soul manipulations we have witnessed.

 

1. Mordeth--His soul survives his bosies death, he then inserts that soul into Fain, and supposedly should have been able to remove Fain's soul except for the fact that the Dark One touched it--This is direct soul transmigration, and the Dark One's only influence was as resistance.

 

2. Machin Shin (and possibly Mashadar)--consumes souls.

 

3. Dreamers--Their souls leave their bodies to enter Tel'aran'rhiod (Which we know for sure via Perrin, Berelain and Annoura). Part of their soul remains in contact with their body, though it is possibly for their entire soul to enter the dream, though this causes death.

 

4. Dreamers with others--Dreamers can pull peoples souls out of their bodies and into tel'aran'rhiod.

 

5. Dream ter'angreal--Power manipulations allowing for partial soul excursions.

 

6. The Hedgehog--Power manipulation allowing full soul removal.

 

As you can see, many options, and thats ignoring things like the fact that the effect of soul removal on the body is so common that every Aes Sedai knows it.

 

The fact is soul manipulation is relatively common, and in no way requires the Dark One's influence. That being said, we have no seen the specific form of soul manipulation that is suggested will occur with Rand and Moridin (and the includes the Dark Ones actions).

[RobertAlexWillis]

Nice Luckers.  Nice.

 

I was talking about transmigration, genius.  As in taking a person, after they die, and putting them into a brand spankin new body, after evicting the previous tenant. 

 

I didn't comment on the feasibility of a Rand-Moridin bodyswap at all.  Its interesting though that you state that I am unequivocally wrong, in what you mistakenly assumed I was talking about.  Last time I checked, the Rand-Moridin bodyswap is not proven.

 

Reading my post (and then understanding the words in it) before stating that I'm incorrect, might be a good idea.

[Luckers]

Wow, whats with the hostility? And I did read your post, and my very first point was a direct comment about transmigration (ahem, as in, putting a soul in in a brand spankin new body, after they die--sorry--die, and evicting the old soul. I was saying that you were incorrect, and so do i believe you to be, since yes, we have seen others manage it, thereby making the comment then it is very unlikely that it could be done when the Bore is non-existent incorrect.

 

Unless you were saying that it is unlikely that shai'tain specifically could transmigrate someones soul without a bore, which seems rather self-evident to me, the comment is incorrect.

 

I don't know what the rest of your post is about since i only mentioned the bodyswap insofar as to address the fact that we havn't seen any precedent of that specific scenario. In the rest of the post I was doing as the poster asked, supplying information about events of soul manipulation outside the influence of the Dark One.

 

Colour me confused.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And I did read your post, and my very first point was a direct comment about transmigration (ahem, as in, putting a soul in in a brand spankin new body, after they die--sorry--die, and evicting the old soul.

 

Where does it say Mordeth ever died?  He certainly didn't "die" in the classic sense ... he was available for a chat with the boys in Book 1.  And certainly not the way the Forsaken died, and since the person who asked the question specifically cited them before your reply which called me unequivocally "wrong".

 

Not to mention the fact that he did not really successfully transmigrate himself.  He did it halfway.  We only have Moiraine's "best guess" at the cause of his failure to complete the process.  Perhaps it was because Fain had been touched by the Dark One.  Or perhaps its because Mordeth was trying to accomplish something he wasn't really strong enough or had the skill to do.

 

The ONLY completely successful transmigration we've seen has been done by Shai'tan, while the Bore exists.

 

Unless you were saying that it is unlikely that shai'tain specifically could transmigrate someones soul without a bore, which seems rather self-evident to me, the comment is incorrect.

 

That happens to be exactly what I was saying, because the person asking the question referred to "The DO and body swaps".

 

Last time I checked, the "DO" is Shai'tan.

 

And yes, it seemed rather self-evident to me too.

 

Wow, whats with the hostility?

 

Colour me confused.

 

Its called "return fire" mate.  You misunderstod the question, and turned it into a forum on your pet theory, and then fired one across my bow.  Even if I HAD been talking about the thing that 5 of your 6 points addressed (the Rand-Moridin bodyswap), calling me unequivocally wrong about your theory which is far, far from proven is at best, a little arrogant.  Doing it in a thread in which you purely misinterpreted the intent of the question being asked is ...

 

... well, its annoying and hostile.

[Luckers]

Where does it say Mordeth ever died?  He certainly didn't "die" in the classic sense ... he was available for a chat with the boys in Book 1.  And certainly not the way the Forsaken died, and since the person who asked the question specifically cited them before your reply which called me unequivocally "wrong".

 

Mordeth is clearly not a physical body, which in the terms of the series is classified as death, but in any case how is that relevant? I was stating him as an example of a disenbodied soul being placed into the living body of another person without the Dark One's intervention. Which, yes, mate, is transmigration, and is why i concider you to be incorrect in your statement.

 

Now, I may be mistaken as to the original posters question--its already happened once in this thread--if he was asking specifically whether the Dark One personally could transmigrate a soul without the bore, than you are right... more the unlikely, we can state it to be inpossible, given the Chosen that died during the breaking.

 

I still don't know why your upset. I concider your comment to be incorrect... this whole 'innevocably wrong', harsh caste to my comments are all in your head.

 

Not to mention the fact that he did not really successfully transmigrate himself.  He did it halfway.  We only have Moiraine's "best guess" at the cause of his failure to complete the process.  Perhaps it was because Fain had been touched by the Dark One.  Or perhaps its because Mordeth was trying to accomplish something he wasn't really strong enough or had the skill to do.

 

I commented on that.

 

Quote

Unless you were saying that it is unlikely that shai'tain specifically could transmigrate someones soul without a bore, which seems rather self-evident to me, the comment is incorrect.

 

That happens to be exactly what I was saying, because the person asking the question referred to "The DO and body swaps".

 

Last time I checked, the "DO" is Shai'tan.

 

And yes, it seemed rather self-evident to me too.

 

Perhaps this is the source of our conflagration... maybe i concidered it to be a little too self-evident, yet i can see how you could interpret the comments in that manner.

 

Its called "return fire" mate.  You misunderstod the question, and turned it into a forum on your pet theory, and then fired one across my bow.  Even if I HAD been talking about the thing that 5 of your 6 points addressed (the Rand-Moridin bodyswap), calling me unequivocally wrong about your theory which is far, far from proven is at best, a little arrogant.  Doing it in a thread in which you purely misinterpreted the intent of the question being asked is ...

 

... well, its annoying and hostile.

 

I'm sorry, none of my points were addressing the bodyswap. Again, i only raised the bodyswap insofar as to state it wasn't proven. Your hostile attacks are groundless.

 

Whatever arguement you think your having, you arn't.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I was stating him as an example of a disenbodied soul being placed into the living body of another person without the Dark One's intervention.

 

Which, since the question was about "The DO and body swaps", is completely irrelevant.

 

I still don't know why your upset. I concider your comment to be incorrect... this whole 'innevocably wrong', harsh caste to my comments are all in your head.

 

I believe your words were, "In that case Robert is incorrect."

 

Not, "I disagree with Robert", or, "My opinion differs".  Robert is wrong.  As if you have authoritative proof.

 

But hey, maybe it is in my head.  The left hemisphere language cortex.  Then the frontal lobes.  Then the right ventromedial prefrontal cortex.  Those are the parts that integrate literal meaning with context.

 

Perhaps this is the source of our conflagration... maybe i concidered it to be a little too self-evident, yet i can see how you could interpret the comments in that manner.

 

Very generous of you, considering that he restated it, and you quoted his restatement, to exactly that effect ...

 

I'm sorry, none of my points were addressing the bodyswap. Again, i only raised the bodyswap insofar as to state it wasn't proven. Your hostile attacks are groundless.

 

Ah .... here are a few.  Your inital post:

 

Its uncertain if the link was formed by the cross of balefire, or by the cross of One Power and True Power, however the first seems more likely given that the True Power and the One Power must surely have clashed in the War of Power. In that case the Dark Ones influence is unnessasary, and the status bore is irrelevant.

 

Yes.  Thats not addressing the bodyswap at all.  ::)

 

Then you concluded your next post (the one with the points I claimed were your means of turning this into a forum on the bodyswap) with this sentence:

 

That being said, we have no seen the specific form of soul manipulation that is suggested will occur with Rand and Moridin (and the includes the Dark Ones actions).

 

The Rand and Moridin situation sums up your paragraph ... but you're not addressing the bodyswap? 

 

Luckers ... that may be the single most disingenuous disclaimer I've ever seen from you.  Literally.

[Luckers]

Clearly I have upset you, and I am sorry for that. I think that perhaps this conversation should end until everyone is feeling calmer. I look forward to that time.

[Cadsuane]

Seems to be time for a group hug. Gather 'round, everyone...  ;D

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Look ... I'm sorry.  My reaction was peevish ... mostly out of surprise.  You are normally very consistent, and it didn't ... well, it still doesn't really, to me ... seem that way this time.  It looked, and felt, like a blatant attack for no reason that I could see ... I deliberately tried to approach the question in a diffident manner in my initial post, because I was pretty sure you misinterpreted the question, but didn't want that to become the focus of the thread.  Which it subsequently did.

 

So, I apologize for my over-reaction. 

 

But I'm not hugging all those little girls ... I'll end up spending too much money if I do.

[Cadsuane]

On bail? Probably.  ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

:o

 

Yikes.  I was thinking more along the lines of "Can you buy me this ... Mr. Robby?" (cue the pitiful face).  I have two younger sisters, I know how little girl hugs are actually a form of profit generation.

[Cadsuane]

Well, my original intention was to insinuate that you all were the little girls, but clearly I wasn't obvious enough... ^_^

 

Also, clearly I don't spend enough time with little girls, or I would have known what you meant!  ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, they don't do it to the women.  I mean, they give them hugs, but not for the same reason.  Different tactics for the mommies/aunties/big sisters.

 

And honey ... I would be one ugly, ugly female, as a woman or little girl.  I'm not even really a treat as a man ...  ;)

[Cadsuane]

But ohhh, that mind!!  Fabulous. ;)

 

 

It's true, girls (and females of any age, really) have a special sort of smile and look they use when they want something out of a man. However, when you get older, it's only fun to use on men who know you're using it and decide to play along because it's good fun.  ;D

[Luckers]

I'm not a little girl! The surgery saw to that, and I don't appreciate the implications.

 

 

[lou]

i have a grand-daughter who will incidentally be two on halloween (how cool is that?) and i am sorry to say that the big blue eyes and the little pout does work on nanas....the hugs are supreme.