The Oath Rod: Our Savoir from the Breaking!

[The Dragon Reborn]

Out of curiosity, would it have been possible to bind male channelers against doing harm with the oath rod? ??? As far as I can remember, it works on male channeler too, as in AOL it was used to bind criminals. It potentially could have stopped the breaking and avoided the stigma associated with male channelers. At least that way, when they go mad they can't hurt anyone. I don't going insane could 'over-ride' the oath. The oath rod make the oaths a part of you.

 

The best example that I can see to demonstrate why this should work is when a leashed Aes Sedai was told to lie by her sul'damane, she was in agony writhing on the floor....

[Lune]

You have to believe what you're doing goes against the Oaths in order for the Oaths to work. For example, it's possible to lie if you yourself are unaware that what you're saying is a lie. For a person who has gone mad, they have no distinction between friend and foe, the insanity can easily override whatever restrictions the Oath has made on them unless they swear to never channel or kill anyone.

[cloglord]

No, we have to take this distinction further.  We know it is possible to lie is the person believes the lie is true.  Therefore it would be possible to kill if the person believes that they aren't killing.  LTT POV from the prolouge in TEotW, seems to indicate an unawareness of the atrocities he had commited.  He didn't know that he had killed anyone, and in this specific case, an oath against violence would have not been effective.

 

Of course, if the madness were to take a different form, it might be effective.  An agoraphobic, would be bound to do no harm, but a schitzophrenic might not.

[Luckers]

Cloglord has hit upon a key issue... beyond which however, the number of male channelers going insane during the breaking makes any attempt to control them with binders absurd. And since that marks the end of knowledge of male binders, any intention beyond the breaking does not exist. Besides, to bind them would allow insanity.... to sever them is much more humane (though i dont agree with the way Aes Sedai gave up on male channelers.)

[lou]

indeed. further, it would be unlikely that the male channelers would willingly be bound at all,psychotic or not. in which case, how likely would it be to gather them all in to put the binding on them? this would most likely have resulted in a near extermination of most of the women who could channel. it would most likely have ended in a breaking in any case.

[Gentled Ben]

Well, apparently quite a few of them gathered in steddings in an attempt not to channel and go mad, so those male Aes Sedai might have been willing to be bound against channeling, but yeah, Luckers is right; severing them is kinder. After all, they couldn't stand not being able to channel, and they all eventually left the steddings and went mad, too. To bind them against channeling would have been torture in the long run, whether they agreed to it initially or not.

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, binding them against channelling might conceivably work, as long as they weren't bound against embracing the Source- it's the embrace that's addictive, not necessarily doing anything with it.

[dlan4327]

"Under the light and by hope of my rebirth and salvation I SWEAR I won't go gaga and run around killing people and blowing up god knows what"

 

Problem solved... well it could work, couldn't it?

[The Dragon Reborn]

Actually, binding them against channelling might conceivably work, as long as they weren't bound against embracing the Source- it's the embrace that's addictive, not necessarily doing anything with it.

 

They would still go loony by only embracing saidin and once they go mad they may no longer be conscience of what they were doing so they would be channeling without having knowledge of it. That mean that the oath would be bypassed. Be I figure that there must be an oath that works...I'll have to think on it.

 

[Mr Ares]

"Under the light and by hope of my rebirth and salvation I SWEAR I won't go gaga and run around killing people and blowing up god knows what"

 

Problem solved... well it could work, couldn't it?

Only if they knew they were gaga and blowing up gods know what - if they didn't believe they were breaking the oath then they wouldn't be. How about "I swear not to touch the Source until the Taint is cleansed"? That would solve the problem, as if they don't touch the Source they won't go any crazier.

[Luckers]

You know what i dont understand. The Aes Sedai who get captured by the Seanchan clearly don't want to be used by them, so why don't they swear to never do anything the sul'dam wants them too. It's been proven the oaths are stronger than the torture--always struck me as silly.

[The Dragon Reborn]

The only problem with swearing no to channel cold turkey is that there would be no way to investigate a way to cleanse saidin. Something like:

 

'I swear never to embrace/channel saidin without express supervision/permission of female Aes Sedai. Also I swear never to embrace/channel for any reason other than to aid in it's cleansing.'

 

This way, they can still channel and if supervised every time they channel, they can never be allowed get to a point of delusion where the oath not longer holds. Also they can help to investigate a possible cleansing method. The supervision/permission thing I'm sure would grate to no end, but better than going crazy and killing everybody you love...Also they would be able to channel, which is better than an all out binding to never channel again. Not perfect but certainly better than the breaking.

 

Of course it would all be done with the understanding that they would be released from this oath upon cleansing.

[Lord_Naryb]

On a related yet separate note, do we know of Oath Rods still in existance that will work on men. Sevanna's only works on women(as said by Sammael) and I am not certain if the Tower Rod will work on both or only women. Has a male Oath Rod been found?

[Luckers]

No, binders seem to be gender specific. We only know of two, and both are female oriented, though Sammael implies that he has a male version--of course that implication is inherently suspect, but nevertheless it is there.

[Lord_Naryb]

Thanks Luckers, I remembered him saying that a binder for non-chanellers would be very expensive if he could find one, but I had forgotten about his claim that he had a male Oath Rod

[Luckers]

His claim is more that he 'has a way to control Rand', and he connects this to the oath rod in his conversation. But yeah.

 

As to the method of controlling non-channelers, thats mentioned in the BWB. My guess is Sammael was referencing those binding chairs, yet did not have one himself.

[robcar71569]

The only problem with swearing no to channel cold turkey is that there would be no way to investigate a way to cleanse saidin. Something like:

 

'I swear never to embrace/channel saidin without express supervision/permission of female Aes Sedai. Also I swear never to embrace/channel for any reason other than to aid in it's cleansing.'

 

This way, they can still channel and if supervised every time they channel, they can never be allowed get to a point of delusion where the oath not longer holds. Also they can help to investigate a possible cleansing method. The supervision/permission thing I'm sure would grate to no end, but better than going crazy and killing everybody you love...Also they would be able to channel, which is better than an all out binding to never channel again. Not perfect but certainly better than the breaking.

 

Of course it would all be done with the understanding that they would be released from this oath upon cleansing.

 

I didn't think the AS allowed study of Saidin because it was tainted, and if that is the case why would they worry about binding someone against channeling except under those conditions to cleanse it?  The only time I know of any reference to cleansing it was when Rand first started considering the possibility.

[The Dragon Reborn]

I'm discussing ways that could have prevented the breaking. If men  were bound in this fashion, they might at least concider it over going mad, as they would still be allowed to channel and try to work towards a method of cleansing saidin. Completely bound against channeling and they would surely have rejected it.

 

Also the condition about permission from female Aes Sedai having to give permission means that if men were suspected of bordering madness, they could withdraw permission to channel, therefore stopping the decent into madness. Even if one was let reach madness (to the point where the oath didn't hold anymore, it's better than all male Aes Sedai going mad.

 

One or two going mad here or there surrounded by female Aes Sedai would have alot easier to manage than the vast numbers that they actually had to face.

[lou]

ok, let's settle this: LTT and the companions went and sealed the bore. quote from TGWB: noone counted on the DO's counterstroke.

they did not know the men would go insane and break the world. if they did not know this, then they could not prepare against it. after the men started going crazy, it was just simply too late.

[The Dragon Reborn]

ok, let's settle this: LTT and the companions went and sealed the bore. quote from TGWB: noone counted on the DO's counterstroke.

they did not know the men would go insane and break the world. if they did not know this, then they could not prepare against it. after the men started going crazy, it was just simply too late.

 

True, nobody expected the taint or the counter stroke. However, bar the 100 Companions every male channeler would have noticed the taint (even if they didn't know what it would do). 100 insane men was surely tough to deal with. But remember there were still 1000+ men who could channel and were not yet insane.

After a few of them went insane (a small still semi-managable number) it would not have been difficult to know what was going on. They should then have taken action before it got any worse.

 

after the men started going crazy, it was just simply too late.

 

Clearly alot of the doomed men knew all too well what was to happen to them (and were willing to try unusual methods to prevent madness) as they went to the steadings to avoid channeling. It must have been a fairly significant number of men as I don't believe a small number of men could have made The Ways.

[lou]

but, now you are talking post-breaking. that was not your initial point. i am merely pointing out that there was no way to bind these men before the breaking, they simply didnt know until it was too late.

[The Dragon Reborn]

I'm talking early-to-mid breaking, while there was still enough time to prevent alot of the damage. Remember the breaking happened over a long period of time (at least 10 years if I remember rightly.)

 

Also remember some Aes Sedai are of the opinion that the males hiding out in the steadings extended the breaking, whereas others believe that doing this prevented the total destruction (too many going crazy at the same time.) This proves that the breaking was still underway while the men were hiding out in the steadings.

 

People had plenty of time to figure out about the taint during the breaking. Granted it may have taken another 20-30 going crazy (after the 100 Companions) to figure out what was going on but no more than that.

[Digbe]

Hey guys!!! A little off topic but certainly relevant to all of us:

 

I just heard on CNN that the polar caps have decrease 4 times the amount than initially predicted for this year.  The report from that scientific convention earlier this year had predicted that lower manhatten & miami would be under water by 2070-- Now there is a claim that it will probably occur in as little as 25 years!  What to do, Oh what to do?

 

Do you think that this ages scientists can figure how to make us adapt or some type of channel in order to save our carcasses from the breaking?

[lou]

your math is off. that would be just under 63 years. i will be dead, but it might effect my children, should they decide to move to miami(and since that would put them at 70-85 it is a real possibility). i will put a new clause in my will that all monies and/or properties shall be forfeited should they move southeast or northeast.

[Digbe]

your math is off. that would be just under 63 years. i will be dead, but it might effect my children, should they decide to move to miami(and since that would put them at 70-85 it is a real possibility). i will put a new clause in my will that all monies and/or properties shall be forfeited should they move southeast or northeast.

 

Sorry ... There isn't an equation here.

 

Let me elaborate:

 

Originally, scientists predicted disaster by the year 2070 , which is 63 years from now (give or take a couple/few months)

 

The scientists new evalutaion indicates that the disaster will happen in as little as 25 years from now, which is ... TWENTY-FIVE years from now give or take the newly calculated margin of error.

 

Hmm.  No math here. However, I do believe that this data is subjective for I haven't access to reports or anything.  As I said, "I just heard on CNN ... "

 

Perhaps it was the 4x that put a spin on it, but look closely:  The Ice cap melted 4x the amount they expected it to this year.  And no other information is supplied.  There is not a statement supplied that surmounts to the scientists expectations of the following years.  I suppose if I were more inclined to apply a little algebra to it, I could come up with a way to say it doesn't work.--But then again, some of the worlds top scientist are having difficulties with these calculations.  Everytime they come across new data they seem to shorten the amount of time we have left before our Breaking.