Tuon, The Seanchan, Egwene, & The White Tower

[cloglord]

There have been some fairly comprehensive theories put on on the topic of the relationship between Egwene and the Seanchan in relation to the upcoming attack on the white tower.  I spent some time tracking down every mention of the seanchan in prophecies, foretellings, and dreams, and withe the exceptions of the ones that I felt were too vauge or had obviously been fulfilled I think that it is possible to make some assumptions about how the Seanchan and the Tower will interact in AMoL.

 

Okay to start there are the two most obvious references to how the attack and subsequent relationships will develope.  Egwene had two dreams regarding the Seanchan and the White tower.  One is Egwene climbing a crumbling ledge, and she is rescued by a Seanchan Woman with a shifting face and a sword.  The second involves two ravens striking a lamp and flying on without a pause.  In the first dream, the faceless Seanchan woman offers Egwene help so that they can, "reach the top together."  In the second dream, egwene asserts that she fully understands, for the first time, one of her dreams.  Her assesment of this dream is that it signals an emminent attack by the Seanchan.  At first these two dreams seem contradictory, as we know that Egwene despises the Seanchan, and would not normally accept the help of one of the Seanchan, especially if they had attacked the tower or were about to.  It also leaves questions about how this faceless seanchan woman is or whether this person is really a person at all or is representative of something else.  So how do we reconcile this?

 

First I think that we should attempt to answer the question of who the faceless ally is.  We can assume that there will be some sort of arrangement worked out between Egwene and the Seanchan.  We do not have to rely on the "Reach the top together," comment as our sole evididence.  We also know from ACoS Ch 10 that there is a golden hawk that will touch Egwene and tie them together.  Not only does this reinforce the idea that Egwene will make an agreement with the Seanchan, it gives us a possible clue as to who the anonymous swordmaiden is.  The Golden Hawk is the symbol of the Empress, and also appears on the banner of the Seanchan Hier.  In either case this would seem to point a steady finger at Tuon as the faceless woman.  Her facelessness can be explained by the fact that she wore the viel, that she is currently in mourning, or by the fact that she has not yet chosen a new name.  Her unwavering sword could signal an unwavering march towards war or simply mean that she will meet Egwene during the raid on the White Tower.  Whether Tuon turns out to be the faceless woman, clearly an agreement will be made, as read in  TDR Ch. 48 Rand will confront her and the women with her, and one of those women will be a seanchan.

 

 

The second aspect of this that we know will happen is an attack upon the White Tower.  NOt only is this clearly foretold in Egwene's Ravens & Lamp dream, it is hinted at in innumerable ways by Seanchan characters, and hinted at by dreams and viewings by Min.  From my reading of the Ravens & Lamp dream it appears to be that the attack will be two lightning fast attacks, as there are two ravens, two hits, and they move on without so much as stopping.  I know that others have other interpretaions of this, but simply reading the imagery of the dream gives me these impressions.  Regardless, we know that an attack will occur.  Further, we have a 3 viewings from Min back in TSR that indicate captivity.  One Aes Sedai with chains around her head, one appled cheeked Accepted (Theodrin?) behind bars, and a random Aes Sedai collared and almost immeadiately released.  Since, we have no indication that any aes sedai, (other than Suian or Leanne,) or accepted were detained, (or collared) in conjunction with the tower split and subsequent fight, I am inclined to think that these three viewings have not yet been fulfilled.  Even the viewing of the collaring, can not be easily explained away as having already occurred, because with the exception of Jolene's brief capture in Tuon's Wagon we have no indication that ANY Aes Sedai has been so briefly captured as to warrant a viewing were the collar appears so briefly before being shattered.  We have further indication that there are to be a great number of Aes Sedai captured at once.    In TDR Ch. 25 Egwene dreams of women with lighting on their dresses collaring a long line of Aes Sedai and forcing them to call lightning against the Tower.  Since I can only think of only a handful of Aes Sedai who have ever been collared, and to my knowledge none have been forced to call lightning against the White Tower, I can't imagine that this dream has already come true.  It seems that during the course of this raid, a great number of Aes Sedai are going to be captured, and possibly abducted.

 

So, if we assume the inevitability of some sort of agreement between Egwene and the Seanchan, and we also assume that the Seanchan will attack and abduct sisters, we must find some way to reconcile these two things.  I think that the clue comes in the form of Carlinya.  In TFoH CH. 26 Min sees a Raven Tatoo floating in the air near Carlinya.  Obviously Egwene would never ally herself with any group that holds women who can channel as pets.  Similarly, Tuon can not agree to allow Marath Damane to roam free.  We also know that a Raven Tatoo is a symbol of ownership by the Seanchan Throne.  Since Damane are not viewed as people by the Seanchan, and we have seen no such tatooing of Damane, even those claimed specifially for the Empress, we can pretty safely assume that it is not common practice to mark Damane as property in this fashion.  Similarly, we haven't seen Grolm, Torm, Raken, etc. marked as imperial property.  It appears that such a Tatoo is reserved to human slaves of the throne.  If Carlinya is destined to be owned by Tuon, then it stands to reason that Tuon will at least acknowledge Damane to be more than Animals.  If Egwene can come to see that the custom of hereditary slaves is in many cases an honored position, she may be able to accept this as a comprimise, especially if Carlinya, or any other possible owned Aes Sedai, (Mylen springs to mind,) chose to stay voluntarily.  Further, it seems that Tuon's major objection to  unleashed Channelers is that they may attempt to abuse their power, and usurp order.  There is of course a mechanism built into the process of becoming Aes Sedai that ensures that they will not attempt to control events by force, the 3 oaths.  Considering that we know that Egwene is willing to entertain the idea of doing away with the oaths, we can assume that she is similarly willing to entertain ideas about changing them.  An oath to uphold order, an oath to serve, an oath to fight injustice would all serve to placate the Seanchan notion of channelers run amuck.  It seems foretold that the Seanchan are going to move toawrds the middle ground, IE acknowledging the humanity of channelers, and it seems possible that Egwene might be willing to change the oaths.  If either/both were to occur it would give a reasonable justification for a truce between the two sides.  That is of course if Egwene can negotiate the release of the "long line" of Aes Sedai that seem fated to be captured.

 

The faceless Seanchan woman of Egwene's dream seems to be in a much less precarious situation than Egwene in that dream, yet she still says that they will, "reach the top together."  If we know that the seanchan are going to capture Aes Sedai, and we know that Egwene and the Seanchan will reach an agreement, and we know that Egwene would never negotiate with a party that was holding Aes Sedai as Damane, we must assume that something happens that removes this captive Aes Sedai roadblock.  That something must either come from Tuon or Egwene.  I would include Rand as a possible intermeadiary, but the dream from  Ch 48 of TDR seems to indicate that Egwene has already reached an agreement with the Seanchan before confronting Rand.  If we assume that Tuon has no reason to release any Damane, then we must look for some reason that Egwene can give Tuon that would induce her to give them up.  One option could be that Egwene could physically force Tuon to do it, individually or by force of arms.  The idea of a direct and proplonged confrontation between the two sides seems to make the idea of reconcilliation less likely not more.  Another option would be a trade.  Egwene could offer to trade something in exchange for their release.  Considering that the Seanchan Empire is relatively wealthy, with a strong military, and a powerful channeling force, seems to indicate that the tower would have little to offer.  But that would be a mistaken assumption, what the Seanchan empire currently lacks, and lacks to the point of endangering its very existence, is stability.  Stability , (with the exception of its current situation,) is something that the Tower knows quite a bit about.  The tower has been the only constant political power for the last 3,000 years, this can be credited in large part to the rigid structure of the tower under the constant framework of the three oaths.  The use of the oath rod, or the gift of the oath rod to the Seanchan throne would go a long way towards solving the imminent crisis that the revelation that Suldam can channel is likely to bring to the Empire.  Also, the tower, under Egwene, can offer knowledge.  The knowedge of the traveling weave, would allow  at least some of the Seanchan forces to quickly return and attempt to restore order to the Empire.  Both things, could be bargaining chips to help Egwene reach the top with a seanchan ally.

 

So, we know that there will be a fight, (probably two if you ask me,) btwn the seanchan and the tower, and that sisters will be taken captive.  We also know that Egwene will reach some sort of agreement with the Seanchan, (Specifically Tuon if you agree with me on the hawk thing,) and that at least one of Egwene's advisors, Carlinya, will be seen as more than an animal by the Seanchan Throne.  Agree?  Disagree?  Why?         

 

 

 

[Luckers]

 

 

and a random Aes Sedai collared and almost immeadiately released.  Since, we have no indication that any aes sedai, (other than Suian or Leanne,) or accepted were detained, (or collared) in conjunction with the tower split and subsequent fight, I am inclined to think that these three viewings have not yet been fulfilled.  Even the viewing of the collaring, can not be easily explained away as having already occurred, because with the exception of Jolene's brief capture in Tuon's Wagon we have no indication that ANY Aes Sedai has been so briefly captured as to warrant a viewing were the collar appears so briefly before being shattered.

 

We do have a comprable viewing in The Fires of Heaven.

 

First I think that we should attempt to answer the question of who the faceless ally is.  We can assume that there will be some sort of arrangement worked out between Egwene and the Seanchan.  We do not have to rely on the "Reach the top together," comment as our sole evididence.  We also know from ACoS Ch 10 that there is a golden hawk that will touch Egwene and tie them together.  Not only does this reinforce the idea that Egwene will make an agreement with the Seanchan, it gives us a possible clue as to who the anonymous swordmaiden is.  The Golden Hawk is the symbol of the Empress, and also appears on the banner of the Seanchan Hier.  In either case this would seem to point a steady finger at Tuon as the faceless woman.  Her facelessness can be explained by the fact that she wore the viel, that she is currently in mourning, or by the fact that she has not yet chosen a new name.  Her unwavering sword could signal an unwavering march towards war or simply mean that she will meet Egwene during the raid on the White Tower.  Whether Tuon turns out to be the faceless woman, clearly an agreement will be made, as read in  TDR Ch. 48 Rand will confront her and the women with her, and one of those women will be a seanchan.

 

I agree that Tuon is, for some intents and purposes, the woman displayed, though my intepretation is a little different. Before I state it though, here is what Egwene specifically says about that dream.

 

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. [...] Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

 

[Crossroads of Twilight: Chapter 20 - In the Night]

 

Firstly, note the importance of the sword. It is what is significant about the woman. Her face never settles clearly, but the sword is as solid as stone.

 

My interpretation is that this is a Seanchan army that is coming to Egwene's aid. The blur face that never settles is because it is made by more than one individual. The sword, as solid as stone, is the basis of its overall nature as an army, and the overall femininity is established by the fact that it is led by Tuon, or at least sent by her. It is an extension of her.

 

Good catch on the Golden Hawk though, i never saw that, though it fits in nicely.

 

Whether Tuon turns out to be the faceless woman, clearly an agreement will be made, as read in  TDR Ch. 48 Rand will confront her and the women with her, and one of those women will be a seanchan.

 

This I don't think is Tuon. The Seanchan woman supporting Egwene seems more to me to be suggestive of a Seanchan woman becoming an Aes Sedai--Bethamin or Seta maybe. Either way i don't see Tuon individually standing beside Egwene in that manner.

 

Altogether i see it as being that Tuon leads an army to join Egwene and the Aes Sedai in fighting of a Shadowspawn assault. 'we can make it together', clearly the threat is face by both of them, and they are made allies by that thread, but the way that Egwene is struggling whilst Tuon descends easily suggests to me that it is Egwene that faces the initial brunt of the assault, whilst the Seanchan watch until Tuon arrives and directs them to aid the marath'damane.

 

a silvery collar suddenly appeared, snug around the woman's neck, and as suddenly seemed to shatter. Min shivered. She did not like viewings connected to the Seanchan. At least Edesina would escape somehow.

 

[FoH: Chapter 26 - Sallie Daera]

 

No idea whether the random Aes Sedai from tSR is the same as Edesine--the fact that Min does not recognize her may suggest that it isn't, but on the other hand... one glimpse six months prior?

 

So, if we assume the inevitability of some sort of agreement between Egwene and the Seanchan, and we also assume that the Seanchan will attack and abduct sisters, we must find some way to reconcile these two things.  I think that the clue comes in the form of Carlinya.  In TFoH CH. 26 Min sees a Raven Tatoo floating in the air near Carlinya.  Obviously Egwene would never ally herself with any group that holds women who can channel as pets.  Similarly, Tuon can not agree to allow Marath Damane to roam free.

 

I believe that that is what all that about scaling a cliff is about. Them joining to face a common foe.

 

I personally don't see either side accepting this as a method of reaching understanding. It's my belief that Carlinya serving the imperial throne comes much later, after tarmon Gai'don, and that she is attempting to assist Tuon in dealing with the backlash recent events will have on Seanchan cultures--specifically the revelation about the sul'dam and the fact that having fought beside Aes Sedai, there will likely be some degree of change of opinion. I believe this is in part what the book in ten years will be about.

 

I would include Rand as a possible intermeadiary, but the dream from  Ch 48 of TDR seems to indicate that Egwene has already reached an agreement with the Seanchan before confronting Rand.

 

Well, again, i don't know. That dream to me doesn't seem to suggest alliance, it seems to suggest that the Seanchan woman is a part of Egwene's group. I don't think it relates to the same 'scaling the cliff' dream.

 

Considering that the Seanchan Empire is relatively wealthy, with a strong military, and a powerful channeling force, seems to indicate that the tower would have little to offer.  But that would be a mistaken assumption, what the Seanchan empire currently lacks, and lacks to the point of endangering its very existence, is stability.  Stability , (with the exception of its current situation,) is something that the Tower knows quite a bit about.  The tower has been the only constant political power for the last 3,000 years, this can be credited in large part to the rigid structure of the tower under the constant framework of the three oaths.  The use of the oath rod, or the gift of the oath rod to the Seanchan throne would go a long way towards solving the imminent crisis that the revelation that Suldam can channel is likely to bring to the Empire.  Also, the tower, under Egwene, can offer knowledge.  The knowedge of the traveling weave, would allow  at least some of the Seanchan forces to quickly return and attempt to restore order to the Empire.  Both things, could be bargaining chips to help Egwene reach the top with a seanchan ally.

 

I would agree with the assessment that currently Seanchan culture is unstable--or rather, it is about to become very very unstable. And yes, i see the tower assisting, as i said above. In fact i agree with most of the comments you made (though i dont think Egwene will give the Seanchan the ability to travel so easily). But i see all this taking place after tarmon gai'don.

 

The sul'dam, the damane, dealing with their reintergration into society, and the backlash therein... no, i think this will be the plot of the Mat and Tuon book to come.

 

So, we know that there will be a fight, (probably two if you ask me,) btwn the seanchan and the tower, and that sisters will be taken captive.  We also know that Egwene will reach some sort of agreement with the Seanchan, (Specifically Tuon if you agree with me on the hawk thing,) and that at least one of Egwene's advisors, Carlinya, will be seen as more than an animal by the Seanchan Throne.  Agree?  Disagree?  Why? 

 

I hope you dont mind that i skipped some of your points--i did read them, i just think you already no my answer, and i didn't want to distract this thread with that old debate. :)

[cloglord]

We do have a comprable viewing in The Fires of Heaven

 

Yup, I missed that one, I remember it now.  Like you said, it isn't for sure that it was the same, but it seems highly coincidental to me that Min would have the same brief viewing of the same person, six months apart, escpecially taking the dream about "a long line of Aes Sedai." into account.  It still doesn't explain the visions of captivity, which to my mind have not yet been fulfilled either. 

 

Before I state it though, here is what Egwene specifically says about that dream.

 

Thanks for the citation, I was just being lazy.  As for your interpretaion of the dream, I can not deny it entirely, however, I will use this same quote to disagree with your assesment of the shared enemy theory you suggest.  Clearly, the faceless Seanchan woman is experiencing no discomfort from her surroundings.  Where Egwene is frantically trying to get a handhold, the mystery woman is deft and walking as though down stairs.  They do not seem to share the same danger.  In fact, I think that the danger that Egwene is experienceing is the treacherous nature of her climb to the top of Aes Sedai politics.  This is a climb that does not pose the same risks for any Seanchan, escpecially Tuon.  The question must be asked however, what would any seanchan get from helpin Egwene?  You posit some sort of shared threat, but I don't see that from the prophecies, dreams, and viewing on the matter.  I understand that you have some personal theories that help to explain this, but I find that it is simpler and more likely to be accurate to stick with the things that we know, without having to invent hypothetical scenarios to fit the pattern.  From what I can see, at the time that dream will come true, the Seanchan, who ever she is, will not be in the same type of precarious position that Egwene will be in.

 

This I don't think is Tuon. The Seanchan woman supporting Egwene seems more to me to be suggestive of a Seanchan woman becoming an Aes Sedai--Bethamin or Seta maybe. Either way i don't see Tuon individually standing beside Egwene in that manner.

 

I don't think that this is possible.  Since this dream is of Rand facing Egwene with a Seanchan woman with her, it seems unlikely that there would be time for Bethamin or Seta to become accepted as novices, let alone become full Aes Sedai.  While several of your points about prophisized events occuring after the scope of AMoL are well taken, this one, doesn't seem to fit there.  I read this to mean that some sort of agreement will be made between Egwene and the Seanchan prior to the showdown with Rand.  Further, if there is an agreement within the timeframe of AMoL then I have to assume that there is something that preciptates this agreement.  Since I don't believe in the common enemy argument, I must make my assumptions based on what I know about the nature of Seanchan need, and that is a need for stability and a quick way to snuff out the chaos back home.

 

 

In fact i agree with most of the comments you made (though i dont think Egwene will give the Seanchan the ability to travel so easily).

 

I do see Egwene giving away the ability to travel.  For two reasons.  One, it is quickly becoming the worst kept secret in the world.  Egwene has personally handed it over to the Wise Ones, and knows that Nynaeve and Elayne have taught it to the Seafolk.  It won't be a secret from the seanchan for much longer, and if she can use it as political currency now, she has to know that it won't be something that she can use for long.  Secondly, as you yourself have pointed out, there is a sense of urgency about TG.  As some point in the course of AMoL everyone is going to come to the realization that they can't keep fighting each other any longer if they hope to defeat the DO.  What will Egwene do at that point?  Keep the secret of traveling from the Seanchan and risk defeat, or share these helpful skills in the hope of success?  We already know that Egwene wants the tower to include all channeling women from all groups, if the Seanchan can bend from their viewpoint on channelers enough, I believe that Egwene could find it in herself to include them too.

 

 

I hope you dont mind that i skipped some of your points--i did read them, i just think you already no my answer, and i didn't want to distract this thread with that old debate. Smiley

 

I appreciate it, which is why I tried to keep my opinions about the attack to myself,...mostly

 

:)

[Luckers]

Yup, I missed that one, I remember it now.  Like you said, it isn't for sure that it was the same, but it seems highly coincidental to me that Min would have the same brief viewing of the same person, six months apart, escpecially taking the dream about "a long line of Aes Sedai." into account.  It still doesn't explain the visions of captivity, which to my mind have not yet been fulfilled either.

 

Indeed, I only really included it as a curioso.

 

It does make one point, however. In your post you cited that the shattering of the a'dam implied that the Aes sedai would only be held very briefly (I believe you cited Joline as a possibility), yet the viewing about Edesina was worded exactly the same, and yet she was held for several months, (she was captured in Tenchico and held throughout the fall of Amadacia and Altara).

 

Mmm. I still think its possible that the two Aes Sedai are the same, though like you i think it unlikely.

 

 

As for your interpretaion of the dream, I can not deny it entirely, however, I will use this same quote to disagree with your assesment of the shared enemy theory you suggest.  Clearly, the faceless Seanchan woman is experiencing no discomfort from her surroundings.  Where Egwene is frantically trying to get a handhold, the mystery woman is deft and walking as though down stairs.  They do not seem to share the same danger.

 

Firstly, I would not get that from the dream. The Seanchan woman is dealing deftly with the danger of being on a cliff face, whilst Egwene is struggling. Both women are in danger, but the Seanchan woman is in the stronger position. As she says "We can make it together". She doesn't say "I can save you." or "Come with me if you want to live." She says that together, they can face the danger and the struggle of the situation they are both in.

 

  In fact, I think that the danger that Egwene is experienceing is the treacherous nature of her climb to the top of Aes Sedai politics.  This is a climb that does not pose the same risks for any Seanchan, escpecially Tuon.  The question must be asked however, what would any seanchan get from helpin Egwene?  You posit some sort of shared threat, but I don't see that from the prophecies, dreams, and viewing on the matter.  I understand that you have some personal theories that help to explain this, but I find that it is simpler and more likely to be accurate to stick with the things that we know, without having to invent hypothetical scenarios to fit the pattern.  From what I can see, at the time that dream will come true, the Seanchan, who ever she is, will not be in the same type of precarious position that Egwene will be in.

 

Irrespective of my theories, the dream itself posits this. They are both on a cliff--yes, Tuon is clearly in a better condition, and much more in control, but they are both of them on the cliff, and Tuon states 'WE can get through this TOGETHER'. She herself establishes the shared threat.

 

Egwene takes on the danger first, that is clear, and at threat of being in danger. The Seanchan are not directly at danger at first, yet they are on the cliff too, merely higher up. Tuon will decide to descend and share the danger, rather than both facing it seperately.

 

I understand that you have some personal theories that help to explain this, but I find that it is simpler and more likely to be accurate to stick with the things that we know, without having to invent hypothetical scenarios to fit the pattern.

 

Don't make snide little comment like that Cloglord, it makes discussions with you unpleasent.

 

I don't think that this is possible.  Since this dream is of Rand facing Egwene with a Seanchan woman with her, it seems unlikely that there would be time for Bethamin or Seta to become accepted as novices, let alone become full Aes Sedai.  While several of your points about prophisized events occuring after the scope of AMoL are well taken, this one, doesn't seem to fit there.  I read this to mean that some sort of agreement will be made between Egwene and the Seanchan prior to the showdown with Rand.  Further, if there is an agreement within the timeframe of AMoL then I have to assume that there is something that preciptates this agreement.  Since I don't believe in the common enemy argument, I must make my assumptions based on what I know about the nature of Seanchan need, and that is a need for stability and a quick way to snuff out the chaos back home.

 

I said on the path to becoming Aes Sedai. Any initiate of the Tower will do... in truth, even a non-initiate, like, say Leilwin. My point was that the Seanchan woman seemed to be an individual that was on Egwene's side--as in, part of her group. The dream simply does not fit--Tuon as one woman in many support Rand as she confronts Rand... it's just not likely. Tuon would a) never take a back seat to Egwene. If she were going to stand with the Aes Sedai against the Dragon for some reason, it would be as the Empress, an ally, and a forefigure. b) would never stand with Aes Sedai anyway. She might permit them to remain unleashed provided there is a more powerful need, or threat, as she does with Joline, Edesina and Teslyn, but she would not support Egwene against Rand.

 

I find it hard to think you don't believe in a common enemy? Do you claim the Seanchan don't believe in the Shadow? Aside from which, whilst Tuon would wont to re-establish herself back home, she needs to deal with the realities on this side of the ocean first, which she has shown a direct awareness of.

 

 

I do see Egwene giving away the ability to travel.  For two reasons.  One, it is quickly becoming the worst kept secret in the world.  Egwene has personally handed it over to the Wise Ones, and knows that Nynaeve and Elayne have taught it to the Seafolk.  It won't be a secret from the seanchan for much longer, and if she can use it as political currency now, she has to know that it won't be something that she can use for long.  Secondly, as you yourself have pointed out, there is a sense of urgency about TG.  As some point in the course of AMoL everyone is going to come to the realization that they can't keep fighting each other any longer if they hope to defeat the DO.  What will Egwene do at that point?  Keep the secret of traveling from the Seanchan and risk defeat, or share these helpful skills in the hope of success?  We already know that Egwene wants the tower to include all channeling women from all groups, if the Seanchan can bend from their viewpoint on channelers enough, I believe that Egwene could find it in herself to include them too.

 

I really doubt it will be the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan to facilitate that peace. Even the mere fact of rand insisting the Seanchan stop leashing marath'damane will be hard to swallow, and Egwene's going to throw a fit when she learns of it.

 

So yes, i very much doubt that she will share travelling. Especially since amongst the first enemies that the Seanchan will use it on would be the Tower.

[cloglord]

It does make one point, however. In your post you cited that the shattering of the a'dam implied that the Aes sedai would only be held very briefly

 

Yeah, that's my bad, I was mixing the two occurrences in my mind.  The first instance, the one that I ment to cite, showed a brief glimpse of a random, collared, Aes Sedai.  The shattering that I attributed to that quote indeed came from the later instance that you brought up.

 

Firstly, I would not get that from the dream. The Seanchan woman is dealing deftly with the danger of being on a cliff face,

 

This dream mentions that she is deftly moving as though she is on stairs.  Not as if she is deftly climbing a sheer rock face.  While I do not deny that stairs can be dangerous, they are not nearly as dangerous as the place where Egwene finds herself.

 

Don't make snide little comment like that Cloglord, it makes discussions with you unpleasent.

 

Who said it was snide?  It occurs to me that you might be looking for snideness where it is not.  Admittedly we have not always had the smoothest of interactions, however, I wasn't taking a jab at you here.  I was merely saying that it is more accurate to predict based on what we know and then test that hypothesis, rather than to try and form a hypothesis that seems to fit, and then try and make the evidence fit it.  It is my belief that that is what you have done, in regards to your theories about an attack on the White Tower, but I am content to disagree with you on that point and debate others.  I wasn't taking a swipe at you or your theory, merely disagreeing with a methodology that I think that you have used.  I think that if you were able to divorce yourself from your theories on the white tower attack, you would would see this dream in a different light, based soley on the facts that we have available.  There was no anomosity.

 

My point was that the Seanchan woman seemed to be an individual that was on Egwene's side--as in, part of her group.

 

And my point is/was that in order for a seanchan to be a part of her group some sort of arrangement would have to be worked out.  I don't think that even Bethamin or Seta would be allowed to become Novices without some deep soul-searching and definate changes in the attitude of Egwene.  What precipitates this change is what I believe to be represented in this dream.

 

I find it hard to think you don't believe in a common enemy?

 

Good, because that is not what I believe, in fact I believe that I cited such an enememy as a meand of possibly bringing them together.  What I don't believe is that this dream, or the danger represented by the cliff, is representative of a common enemy.  In fact I think that the Cliff is much more likely to be a representation of politics.  True, it would be a danger that the two of them have in common, but it is not an enemy as such.  How about this for a hypothesis?

 

The mountain represents politics, this seems especially apt, given the Seanchan sayings in regard to the paths being paved with daggers, etc.  Egwene who has never been to the top of this mountain is in a precarious situation, in fact it is dire.  Tuon, who has reached this pinnacle, has found herself slipping from the top recently, but has managed to deftly arrange for her loss of elevation, and is planning to return.  Tuon comes down from on top, Egwene is struggling to reach the pinnacle.  Tuon could probably regain the top on her own power, yet for some reason decides it would be beneficial to her to assist Egwene, presumably in return for some assitance in return.  Such an agreement would help to explain the presence of a Seanchan woman in Egwene's coterie in the later dream. 

 

I really doubt it will be the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan to facilitate that peace.

 

Who would then?  It seems clear from the later dream that the Seanchan and Egwene have already worked out some sort of arrangement before the confrontation between her and Rand.

 

Especially since amongst the first enemies that the Seanchan will use it on would be the Tower.

 

Why?  This whole thread is an attempt at trying to reconcile how the Seanchan can attack the White Tower, and still reach some sort of agreement.  If the attack comes first, and traveling were the basis of some sort of treaty, why would the Seanchan use traveling against their allies?

[DemandredFO]

I have an Idea for the raven dream:  Since there are two ravens hitting the wite flame couldn't one be the seanchan attack and the second raven be seanchan help against shadowspawn.  I know dreamers know what they know but Min thinks her viewing of Moiraine failed even though no other viewings ever have.  A seanchan attack would certainly shake the tower but having to accept help would shake it just as much.  No one ever said the tower was rational, some AS still want to sever rand even knowing what that would mean.

    As for that Seanchan woman with Egwene, couldn't it be alivia or, more likely Egeanin because as Luckers if it were tuon she would be empress, not randomly with egwene.

[cloglord]

I know dreamers know what they know but Min thinks her viewing of Moiraine failed even though no other viewings ever have.

 

Ordinarily I would agre with you, but Egwene mentions this dream specifically as the first Dream that she completely understood.  She doesn't mention anything odd or different about the second raven, so I'm not convinced that it would be, I'm not discounting the possibility, but I don't agree.

 

As for that Seanchan woman with Egwene, couldn't it be alivia or, more likely Egeanin because as Luckers if it were tuon she would be empress, not randomly with egwene.

 

Both of those women have faces.  Tuon is the one who has spent her entire time onscreen wearing a viel, or more recently between names.  As Seanchan custom dictates, upon the death of the Empress the Heir immeadiately become the Empress, yet custom also dictates that Tuon not take her new name until the mourning period is over.  My interpretation is the dream woman has no face, because Tuon has no name.  Don't forget, there is a dream about Egwene being bound to a golden hawk.  Egwene is destined to be connected to Tuon, even if she is not the woman from the cliff dream.

[Anajon]

 

Both of those women have faces.  Tuon is the one who has spent her entire time onscreen wearing a viel, or more recently between names.  As Seanchan custom dictates, upon the death of the Empress the Heir immeadiately become the Empress, yet custom also dictates that Tuon not take her new name until the mourning period is over.  My interpretation is the dream woman has no face, because Tuon has no name.  Don't forget, there is a dream about Egwene being bound to a golden hawk.  Egwene is destined to be connected to Tuon, even if she is not the woman from the cliff dream.

 

Egeanin is in between names and has a major identity crisis, even so I think Tuon is more likely just playing devils advocate. –

 

As for the golden hawk, I have a different theory: it is mostly connected to Berelain ; quote form the encyclopaedia: “The First of Mayene and High Seat of House Paeron. She wears the Diadem of the First, a golden hawk in flight” It is also the sign of her army’s armour. Berelain is a descendent of Artur Hawkwing, used to negotiate for her city kingdom, an ally of Rand, with Perrin and Morgase and possibly soon to be in love with Galad - which would put her into a good position as negotiator between the tower and the Seanchan.

 

 

[lou]

my initial thought on this dream was also berelain. she may be the one and only descendant of hawkwing (with the lineage to prove so) that the seanchan may pay special attention to. though, i really think the seanchan are not going to be as much of an obstacle as some do.

[cloglord]

I have made similar points in other thread.  I do believe that Berlain will have a special place in the Seanchan solution.  HOwever, I don't know that that role will be fulfilled for her until after TG. 

 

Obstensibly, the Forerunners first goal was to see if Hawkwings descendants still ruled in Randland.  Once they discovered that they did not, they began their conquest.  If you believe that they would have honored the rulership of a Hawkwing decendant, then it isn't too far of a leap to think that Berlain would have some degree of legitimacy in the new Seanchan regime.

 

Now if you take that one step further, and consider the recent scarcity of Imperial highblood, then I can easily see a situation were Tuon, would name Berlain as heir to the empire, or even empress of the seanchan held lands in Randland, while she to Seanchan to try and regain control.

 

Of course this theory has been poopooed on these forums as well, so take it for what its worth.  I believe it, and I have said as much before, but don't expect it to be a very popular POV.

[Luckers]

Yeah, that's my bad, I was mixing the two occurrences in my mind.  The first instance, the one that I ment to cite, showed a brief glimpse of a random, collared, Aes Sedai.  The shattering that I attributed to that quote indeed came from the later instance that you brought up.

 

Ah that's cool... they are really close in wording, and I totally made the same mistake.

 

This dream mentions that she is deftly moving as though she is on stairs.  Not as if she is deftly climbing a sheer rock face.  While I do not deny that stairs can be dangerous, they are not nearly as dangerous as the place where Egwene finds herself.

 

Yes, it does. And yes she is still on the cliff face. As I said, it shows that the Seanchan are in more control of the situation than Egwene, yet nevertheless, on the cliff face they remain. "We can get through this together." Shared danger.

 

Who said it was snide?  It occurs to me that you might be looking for snideness where it is not.  Admittedly we have not always had the smoothest of interactions, however, I wasn't taking a jab at you here.  I was merely saying that it is more accurate to predict based on what we know and then test that hypothesis, rather than to try and form a hypothesis that seems to fit, and then try and make the evidence fit it.  It is my belief that that is what you have done, in regards to your theories about an attack on the White Tower, but I am content to disagree with you on that point and debate others.  I wasn't taking a swipe at you or your theory, merely disagreeing with a methodology that I think that you have used.  I think that if you were able to divorce yourself from your theories on the white tower attack, you would would see this dream in a different light, based soley on the facts that we have available.  There was no anomosity.

 

Look, i dont want a fight here, but if you dont see how implying that my position was merely a function of my desire to believe in the theory i suggest was snide, then I am deeply sorry for you.

 

And my point is/was that in order for a seanchan to be a part of her group some sort of arrangement would have to be worked out.  I don't think that even Bethamin or Seta would be allowed to become Novices without some deep soul-searching and definate changes in the attitude of Egwene.  What precipitates this change is what I believe to be represented in this dream.

 

I don't see how that is sustainable. For starters we have many Seanchan 'channelers' acting outside the influence of the Seanchan hierarchy--why would an alliance be required for them to be accepted into the Aes Sedai order. Secondly, the Aes Sedai draw on woman of any national background. I see no reason for denying Bethamin and Seta (or indeed any of the captured sul'dam, much less the captured demane)... especially given the nature of the contention with the Seanchan. If you think that Egwene would not see the value of having ex-sul'dam Aes Sedai... well, yeah... then your silly. (said for drama, not any intention to be offensive. :))

 

The only other issue is age, and thats a non-issue now...

 

 

Beyond that, though, I again draw you to the pure nature of the vision... a single woman, as a part of a group that Egwene leads. I find that singularily antithetical to any conception of this being a dream of a collaboration of an alliance.

 

Good, because that is not what I believe, in fact I believe that I cited such an enememy as a meand of possibly bringing them together.  What I don't believe is that this dream, or the danger represented by the cliff, is representative of a common enemy.  In fact I think that the Cliff is much more likely to be a representation of politics.  True, it would be a danger that the two of them have in common, but it is not an enemy as such.  How about this for a hypothesis?

 

The mountain represents politics, this seems especially apt, given the Seanchan sayings in regard to the paths being paved with daggers, etc.  Egwene who has never been to the top of this mountain is in a precarious situation, in fact it is dire.  Tuon, who has reached this pinnacle, has found herself slipping from the top recently, but has managed to deftly arrange for her loss of elevation, and is planning to return.  Tuon comes down from on top, Egwene is struggling to reach the pinnacle.  Tuon could probably regain the top on her own power, yet for some reason decides it would be beneficial to her to assist Egwene, presumably in return for some assitance in return.  Such an agreement would help to explain the presence of a Seanchan woman in Egwene's coterie in the later dream. 

 

Um... honestly? I don't see any of it. Sorry.

 

Who would then?  It seems clear from the later dream that the Seanchan and Egwene have already worked out some sort of arrangement before the confrontation between her and Rand.

 

Firstly... Rand would. Secondly... what? All that is clear from that dream is that a single Seanchan woman joins Egwene.

 

Why?  This whole thread is an attempt at trying to reconcile how the Seanchan can attack the White Tower, and still reach some sort of agreement.  If the attack comes first, and traveling were the basis of some sort of treaty, why would the Seanchan use traveling against their allies?

 

Because there would be no 'sort of treaty'. Lol.

 

 

[cloglord]

Quote

Who would then?  It seems clear from the later dream that the Seanchan and Egwene have already worked out some sort of arrangement before the confrontation between her and Rand.

 

Firstly... Rand would. Secondly... what? All that is clear from that dream is that a single Seanchan woman joins Egwene.

 

Under what circumsatnces do you forsee Egwene allowing ANY seanchan to stand with her?  She is physically revolted everytime the topic of the Seanchan is brought up to her.  I reject the idea that Rand would be the one to bring them together, because of the timing.  Clearly Egwene has made the decision to allow at least some Seanchan into her fold, before the prophecized confrontation with Rand.  This leads me to believe that her apparent change of heart towards the Seanchan is brought on by something else, I believe that something else is what is prophesized in the cliff dream.

 

 

Yes, it does. And yes she is still on the cliff face. As I said, it shows that the Seanchan are in more control of the situation than Egwene, yet nevertheless, on the cliff face they remain. "We can get through this together." Shared danger.

 

I feel the need to point out that the dream woman doesn't say that they will get through this together, rather she says that they can reach the "top' together.  Surely you will agree that the actual wording of this dream has signifigantly different connotations than the statement, "We can get through this together."  The latter does imply a shared situation, while the correct wording does not specifically imply this.

 

Look, i dont want a fight here, but if you dont see how implying that my position was merely a function of my desire to believe in the theory i suggest was snide, then I am deeply sorry for you.

 

No need to be deeply sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your position was a mere function of your methodology, I meant to say that your position was, IMO, negatively influenced by your methodology.  I wasn't discarding your theory based on what I feel to be an error in perspective, merely pointing out that I don't think that you are coming at this argument from an unbiased perspective, because of the means by which you reached your conclusions in the other thread.  If none of that made sense, then just take my apology for any percieved snideness, as a sincere token of my respect for your opinions.

 

{quote]I again draw you to the pure nature of the vision... a single woman, as a part of a group that Egwene leads. I find that singularily antithetical to any conception of this being a dream of a collaboration of an alliance.

 

I agree that Tuon would not fit well into such a vision, however, I do not agree with your interpretation of this dream.  It says that there are women with her, and that one of them was Seanchan.  I read nothing that implied any overt sense of leadership on Egwene's part.  The fact that Egwene appears to be the focus of this dream could simply be because it is Egwene who drempt it.  Perhaps if Tuon were a dreamer she would have seen herself faceing Rand with a group of women, and one of those women would have been Marath Damane.  Who knows?  I have a feeling, that because we both interpret both of these dreams differently, that we are unlikely to make any further progress.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Under what circumsatnces do you forsee Egwene allowing ANY seanchan to stand with her?  She is physically revolted everytime the topic of the Seanchan is brought up to her.  I reject the idea that Rand would be the one to bring them together, because of the timing.  Clearly Egwene has made the decision to allow at least some Seanchan into her fold, before the prophecized confrontation with Rand.  This leads me to believe that her apparent change of heart towards the Seanchan is brought on by something else, I believe that something else is what is prophesized in the cliff dream.

 

I'm a bit confused, you challange me on the fact that Egwene would allow a Seanchan woman into the Tower, and yet state that it is clear that Egwene decides to allow some Seanchan into the fold. A conservative Seanchan would never join her, and therefore whoever it is is not a conservative Seanchan, and yes, I do see Egwene being able to accept a Seanchan woman into the fold if she had diverged from the socialized Seanchan belief.

 

Note too that Egwene has changed from the days where she simply cannot bring herself to percieve the Seanchan. She has grown stronger in herself, and no, i dont see her being shaken by fear or memories of her time with the Seanchan. Even her anger with Rand, I suspect, will not be because he reached an alliance with the Seanchan. She will understand that. Her fury will stem from him allowing them to keep the women they already have leashed.

 

And Rand will be the one to bring Tuon and Egwene together, not the one to bring the Seanchan woman into Egwene's group--that seems relatively clear by the fact that she is standing with Egwene in opposition of Rand.

 

I feel the need to point out that the dream woman doesn't say that they will get through this together, rather she says that they can reach the "top' together.  Surely you will agree that the actual wording of this dream has signifigantly different connotations than the statement, "We can get through this together."  The latter does imply a shared situation, while the correct wording does not specifically imply this.

 

Nope. There is a joint struggle resulting from joing adversity, and joint danger. I'm sorry if this wasn't the reply you wanted....

 

No need to be deeply sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your position was a mere function of your methodology, I meant to say that your position was, IMO, negatively influenced by your methodology.  I wasn't discarding your theory based on what I feel to be an error in perspective, merely pointing out that I don't think that you are coming at this argument from an unbiased perspective, because of the means by which you reached your conclusions in the other thread.  If none of that made sense, then just take my apology for any percieved snideness, as a sincere token of my respect for your opinions.

 

Ok, but i still think you have the egg and the chicken misrepresented. My beliefs about the way it will work stem from the prophecy, not the prophecy from my beliefs. Beyond that, i never mentioned my beliefs here... i only ever addressed the very specific wording of the prophecy.

 

But yeah, I appreciate it.

 

I agree that Tuon would not fit well into such a vision, however, I do not agree with your interpretation of this dream.  It says that there are women with her, and that one of them was Seanchan.  I read nothing that implied any overt sense of leadership on Egwene's part.  The fact that Egwene appears to be the focus of this dream could simply be because it is Egwene who drempt it.  Perhaps if Tuon were a dreamer she would have seen herself faceing Rand with a group of women, and one of those women would have been Marath Damane.  Who knows?  I have a feeling, that because we both interpret both of these dreams differently, that we are unlikely to make any further progress.

 

You see, i think it does imply leadership--specifically that Egwene is confronting Rand out of her position as leader of the Aes Sedai. But I guess we can agree to disagree here.

 

But I honestly dont see anyway in which an event could occur in which Tuon would be described as a woman standing with Egwene as a part of a singular larger group. Unless each of the women present were leaders in their own right, and somehow this event is a vast alliance of matriarchies that are standing against Rand--which i dont see as possible--than i dont see anyway for Tuon and Egwene to be part of that sort of group together.

[cloglord]

I'm a bit confused, you challange me on the fact that Egwene would allow a Seanchan woman into the Tower, and yet state that it is clear that Egwene decides to allow some Seanchan into the fold. A conservative Seanchan would never join her, and therefore whoever it is is not a conservative Seanchan, and yes, I do see Egwene being able to accept a Seanchan woman into the fold if she had diverged from the socialized Seanchan belief.

 

It is precisely this point that I'm trying to iron out here.  1. We know that Egwene will accept a Seanchan woman to stand with her.  2.  We know that the Seanchan are about to further alienate themselves from Egwene by attacking the place that she considers to be her home.  The question is, how will these two things be reconciled?  You say that Egwene could accept a moderate Seanchan.  Would a moderate Seanchan accept a radical Egwene?  What will moderate the Seanchan?  What will moderate Egwene?  What will bring them together, as the vision of the golden hawk touching and tying itself to Egwene demonstrates?

 

Nope. There is a joint struggle resulting from joing adversity, and joint danger. I'm sorry if this wasn't the reply you wanted....

 

I wasn't looking for your agreement with my POV, merely an acknowledgement that the two sayings don't neccesarily mean the same thing.  It's not really that important... It was just a clarification.

[Jagen Sedai]

Has anyone thought about Egeanin? I would think the shifting face would be her if anyone, esp with a sword. The shifting face could indicate her changing of names every time she advances a rank. Maybe Mat has Egeanin and some other Seanchan actually help Egwene?

 

Though anyway, this does bring up something interesting about what will happen between the Seanchan and Aes Sedai, since it seems very unlikely the two will live side-by-side peacefully and the Seanchan won't want to leave the lands...