Encounters

[DemandredFO]

I haven't seen this done before but if it has, ah well.

 

People who I am confident will have fatal or severing encounters

Matt vs. Demandred

Matt got that ter'angreal for a reason and I think Matt and Demandred will meet because Matt is the Light General and Demandred is the Shadow's General

Nyneave vs. Moghedien

this has been coming since tSR.  w/wo Moridin's permission this is coming

 

These are the fairly confidents

Toun, with Mat's help, vs. Arangar

I am not sure but I believe this will happen cuz Arangar tried to kill Matt in Salidar and failed.  I think Toun will actually fight and kill her because of the two river's mens absurd reluctance to harm women who are trying to kill them.

Aviendha and Greandal

Both women have had no significant challenge yet and they are near to each other.  I am unsure as to whether Greandal will escape from this clash or not.

Perrin vs. Slayer

coming since tSR.  Don't know whether slayer will escape alive though

Fain vs. Slayer

I believe Slayer will kill Fain and then die at Perrin's hands

Pevara+?warders vs. Alviarin

P is leader of the hunters and A is leader of the hunted.  Unsure as to role of Asha'Man or if A will escape

Tom vs. unknown

Presumably he will do some damage in Finnland, rescue moiriane and get the hell out.  As some point more tells him the names and most are unnecessary cuz they have been killed in battle or made Demane.  I agree with Luckers about Tsutama.

Moiraine vs. unknown

I believe moiraine will be heaied, by a man hopefully, and will then face down someone important.  I know that's lame but the best I could do

 

All I got for now, feel free to criticize, add or change.  If you criticize please provide a reason because I can't read your mind.

 

P.S.  I left out Rand and Ishamael because I don't want get into the bodyswap debate on this thread.

Fire Away

[DubbleChrisP]

Really, none of those make sense to me. Mat and Demandred? There's no evidence (at least I don't think so) that Mat's ter'angreal even works against saidin, and Mat is far from something as archetypal as the Light General, he simply commands the Band of the Red Hand. No evidence whatsoever that he'll be having any sort of 1v1 confrontation with any Forsaken.

 

Nynaeve and Moghedien, maybe. There's obviously grudges and hatred there, but Moridin's firm reign on Moghedien may very well keep her from playing any major role whatsoever in AMoL.

 

Tuon vs Aran'gar? That came out of nowhere. I don't even remember Aran'gar trying to kill Mat. No, I seriously doubt Tuon will be having any sort of duel with any channeler, especially considering her hatred of and refusal to channel, herself.

 

Aviendha and Graendal; again, what? They haven't even had any contact with each other. Not once, in all the books. What makes you think they will in AMoL, especially a confrontation that would turn into some kind of duel?

 

Fain vs Slayer vs Perrin; refresh my memory, what animosity does Fain have towards Slayer, if any?

 

[The Dragon Reborn]

Didn't Rahvin kill Mat when he had the Foxhead medallion on in Caemlyn? I doesn't save him from men channeling. Also remember that Mat asked 'to be free of Aes Sedai', not people who can channel. There are no male channelers these days.

[chelseafan]

Matt´s ter-angreal does protect from saidin..we see this in Salidar where Arangar channells at him and the medalion goes cool.

I dunno..personally I see Matt taking down the gholum as a given at somestage but other than that i´m not sure

[Paladin]

In chapter 44 of Lord of Chaos,

Mat feels the foxhead medallion go cold then sees shock on Halima's face. She must have channeled at him and seen the weaves disappear. Since Halima (Aran'gar) channels saidin, the foxhead medallion protects from both saidar and saidin.

 

the reason the foxhead didn't protect him from the lightning is that the weaves of saiding didn't make direct contact with him only the effects.

[Majsju]

 

Fain vs Slayer vs Perrin; refresh my memory, what animosity does Fain have towards Slayer, if any?

 

 

Slayer is hunting Fain because Fain turned against the DO. That's the reason Slayer was in the Two Rivers.

[Darkness Incarnated]

I've never understood why people pitch Aviendha against Graendal. In terms of strength, from Graendal you drop down to Mesaana/Semirhage, then Nynaeve/Moghedien, and finally Aviendha. Not only is Graendal noticeably stronger, she is also far more experienced; she has been channeling for literally hundreds of years as compared to the two or three in Aviendha's case.

 

Rand survived his encounters with the Forsaken because he's so strong, not to mention Lews Therin's help. Aviendha doesn't stand a chance.

But wait, Aviendha has an angreal, I hear someone say. So does Graendal. Do I need to bring up the fight between Cyndane and Alivia? They are very close in strength, and thus Alivia's angreal made her that much stronger; whereas Aviendha's angreal has that extra task of bridging the gap between her and Graendal, which reduces its overall efficiency. Then throw in Graendal's own angreal.

 

Alivia--who is more experienced than Aviendha, by the way--with an angreal failed to kill an unaided Cyndane, what makes people believe that Aviendha will manage to kill Graendal when both have angreal(s)? If at least Graendal didn't have one, then I would give Aviendha a chance, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me.

???

[The Dragon Reborn]

In chapter 44 of Lord of Chaos,

Mat feels the foxhead medallion go cold then sees shock on Halima's face. She must have channeled at him and seen the weaves disappear. Since Halima (Aran'gar) channels saidin, the foxhead medallion protects from both saidar and saidin.

 

the reason the foxhead didn't protect him from the lightning is that the weaves of saiding didn't make direct contact with him only the effects.

Oh, I have it right in my head now. The Medallion can only protect Mat from direct contact with The Power (saidin and saidir) ie someone trying wrap him up in Air or something. Anything that was created with the power (like lightning) can still affect him. With stuff like lightning, the weave never actually touches Mat so the Medallion can't 'melt' the flows.

[Luckers]

I've never understood why people pitch Aviendha against Graendal. In terms of strength, from Graendal you drop down to Mesaana/Semirhage, then Nynaeve/Moghedien, and finally Aviendha. Not only is Graendal noticeably stronger, she is also far more experienced; she has been channeling for literally hundreds of years as compared to the two or three in Aviendha's case.

 

The main reason it is suggested, i suspect, is a combination of local--someone must stir Graendal out of Arad Domon, and Aviendha is the only main character stationed nearby (though Rand was there for a time). Additionally Aviendha hasn't really had a shine moment, and the Aiel Wise Ones need a bit of a shine moment in the fight against the Shadow.

 

In terms of strength, my guess is that they are quite close AT THE MOMENT. Remember, both of them have angreal, Aviendha has one that is termed to be quite strong, whilst Graendal has one that she describes as very weak. The result, I'm guessing, is that the two are now somewhere in the same bandwidth.

 

Rand survived his encounters with the Forsaken because he's so strong, not to mention Lews Therin's help. Aviendha doesn't stand a chance.

But wait, Aviendha has an angreal, I hear someone say. So does Graendal. Do I need to bring up the fight between Cyndane and Alivia? They are very close in strength, and thus Alivia's angreal made her that much stronger; whereas Aviendha's angreal has that extra task of bridging the gap between her and Graendal, which reduces its overall efficiency. Then throw in Graendal's own angreal.

 

Alivia--who is more experienced than Aviendha, by the way--with an angreal failed to kill an unaided Cyndane, what makes people believe that Aviendha will manage to kill Graendal when both have angreal(s)? If at least Graendal didn't have one, then I would give Aviendha a chance, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Ignoring the strength/angreal bit, which i think i addressed above, Aviendha is slightly different to Alivia. For one, she HAS been trained in all the weaves that Nynaeve and Elayne learnt from Moghedian, whilst Rand makes a specific point of the fact that none of the Aes Sedai, and especially not Nynaeve, would teach Alivia anything. He actually underlines the whole issue quite heavily.

 

Graendal will have reversion over Aviendha, but not much else. But in the end i suspect that Graendal will be driven off by Aviendha, not killed or taken hostage.

 

Alivia's expertise, incidently, is to be used in battle against an army. Or, at best, to be used to capture an untrained marath'damane. In truth, she can't be concidered to be experienced in one on one fighting with a well trained channeler.

[The Dragon Reborn]

 

Fain vs Slayer vs Perrin; refresh my memory, what animosity does Fain have towards Slayer, if any?

 

 

Slayer is hunting Fain because Fain turned against the DO. That's the reason Slayer was in the Two Rivers.

I don't seem to remember being told that, then again I'm only on my 1st re-read...?

[Majsju]

"It was only a few hundred to begin, Goldeneyes. Just enough to keep those fool Whitecloaks off balance and see that the renegade died."

 

TSR 42, A Missing Leaf

 

"Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important," he murmured. This rat. Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain.

 

WH 13, Wonderful News

[The Dragon Reborn]

I only read TSR a month ago, how did I miss that? :-[ I gotta focus more on what people are saying in the books...

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

I'm actually pretty bummed that Moridin has his hold on Moghedian. I was waiting for a juicy Nynaeve vs. Moggy scene where Moggy can get well and truly pummelled.  ;D Call me violent, but I'd just love to see her taken down with a boom. I don't know that that's possible now, but I can still hope  ;)

[Darkness Incarnated]

Luckers, I got the feeling that Moghedien was not exactly forthcoming about her knowledge. She couldn't have possibly told the Wonder Girls all she knew; knowledge acquired in hundreds of years can't be shared--unwillingly, grudgingly--in mere months. Not to mention that she prefers working from the shadows, though I guess that doesn't really hinder her. What I mean is, Moghedien is probably the worst teacher you can get, Graendal likely knows more. Plus, I doubt Aviendha has had time to 'test' those weaves, while Graendal is very familiar with them. All that is why I don't exactly agree with your assertion that Graendal doesn't have much over Aviendha apart from reversion. RJ made it a point to stress the importance of experience.

However, I do think you're correct about their strength estimate, but I remain unconvinced about Aviendha driving Graendal away. It just doesn't compute.

 

[Luckers]

Nevertheless, Aviendha is the proud recipient of all the knowledge, thereby making the Alivia comparison flawed. Recall, too, that whilst Moghedian may be uninclined to battle, so too is Graendal. She's a manipulator, not a warrior. Certainly, she is more brave then Moghedian, but more experienced?

 

Meanwhile, Aviendha IS a warrior, and don't count that out even if it was with spears and not the power that she fought. The spirit and the instinct does count. Recall too that she has some of her own tricks up her sleeve. Aiel Wise Ones essentially taught themselves from the beginning back when the Da'shain Aiel lost communication with the Aes Sedai. That breeds innovation, like the unravelling. Now all the information the Aes Sedai retained, plus the knowledge weaseled out of Moghedian have been meshed together in the first Aiel Wise One to take an active stance in battle, the first to have shrugged off, or not been trained, in the traditional non-agressive Wise One stance.

 

No, I don't think you should count Aviendha out. People have been ignoring Wise One channelers since the beginning, and where has it got them? A pet named Lyna, da'tsang turned loyal apprentices?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I would point out here that, at least with the people in these stories, experience doesn't seem to count for much in channeling battles.  Yes, Rand has Lews Therin's instincts and ta'veren going for him, but he's not the only one who has beaten a more experienced, more powerful channeler.

 

Moiraine killed Be'lal, and took out Lanfear.

 

Nynaeve fought Moghedien to a standstill before she had reached her full potential strength (and before she got any "special lessons"), and flat out beat her in Tel'aran'rhiod where Moghedien was both stronger and far, far more experienced.

 

Killing someone with the Power seems to be more about getting the drop on them than anything else.  Once it gets down to a slugfest, unless there is a huge difference in strength, it usually ends in a draw, the slightly disadvantaged party escaping.  In fact, even in Rand's fights this seems to be the case.  He needed Callandor to kill Ishy, Nyaneve's assitance to kill Rahvin, and Mashadar killed Sammael.

 

The right tools can make all the difference (see the capture of Semirhage, death of Ishamael, etc.), and Aviendha seems to be able to find what tools do what.  Her training as a Maiden gives her tactical experience that can, in many ways, still apply to a channeling fight.

 

I'm not saying I think it is likely, by any means, since I don't think it will come up.  But if Aviendha did have some reason to hunt Graendal down, I think she would have at least a realistic chance of winning.

[Luckers]

I honestly don't see her hunting Graendal down either. I suspect their confrontation will result from either happenstance, or in reaction to something Graendal does to sabotage the forces in Arad Domon.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If it occurs through happenstance (ie they just bump into each other), I think Aviendha's chances go down, although certainly not to zero.  But if it happens in response to events in Arad Doman (which seems as likely as anything, now, since a confrontation with the Aiel is certainly brewing there), I could see a scenario in which Aviendha feels compelled, in order to meet some from of toh, to hunt Graendal down.

 

Again, I'm simply saying its possible, not that I think it will happen.

[Luckers]

Well, to be fair, every other confrontation that has resulted from hapenstance has fallen int he favour of the light. Lanfear's fall, Semirhage's fall, Aran'gar's fleeing.

 

I don't see why that even remotely turns things against Aviendha. If she percieves the threat faster than Graendal--as indeed she would, as a Maiden--then it turns in her favour.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, to be fair, every other confrontation that has resulted from hapenstance has fallen int he favour of the light. Lanfear's fall, Semirhage's fall, Aran'gar's fleeing.

 

I don't see why that even remotely turns things against Aviendha. If she percieves the threat faster than Graendal--as indeed she would, as a Maiden--then it turns in her favour.

 

Um ... if she deliberately goes out after Graendal, then she can plan, and arm herself accordingly.  Moiraine killed Be'lal because she had a plan.  Ditto Moiraine's defeat of Lanfear.

 

As I said, a happenstance encounter does not reduce Aviendha's chance to zero.  But it does reduce her chances in comparison to a deliberate hunt ...

 

Lanfear's fall was not happenstance.  Moiraine had a carefully executed plan.  Semirhage only fell because Rand brought strong channelers armed to the teeth in anticipation of the possibility of trouble.  They weren't after Semirhage, but they were ready for a fight; more ready than even Aviendha's usual level of readiness.  And Aran'gar fled because she was about to be exposed, and an organized group was about to come after her.  It wasn't the result of a happenstance encounter ...

[Luckers]

Um ... if she deliberately goes out after Graendal, then she can plan, and arm herself accordingly.  Moiraine killed Be'lal because she had a plan.  Ditto Moiraine's defeat of Lanfear.

 

As I said, a happenstance encounter does not reduce Aviendha's chance to zero.  But it does reduce her chances in comparison to a deliberate hunt ...

 

But it doesn't reduce her chances without that comparison. Yes, a planned hunt would increase her chances--indeed, place circles of Wise Ones around the manner and it basically ensures victory. But Aviendha doesn't know that Graendal is in Arad Domon. I honestly do not see any confrontation between them resulting from direct action on her part.

 

I think we mistook each other... my comment, it wasn't about how being prepared served Moiraine better, it was about how being unprepared hurt the Forsaken's chances.

 

I see that you were clearly speaking of her chances in comparison to a planned confrontation. I had stated earlier that I did not see that happening, so when i was responding i was responding to my perception that you were saying that in a happenstance confrontation Aviendha's chances were low, period.

 

Lanfear's fall was not happenstance.  Moiraine had a carefully executed plan. 

 

Lanfear's fall was not happenstance, but Lanfear's intentions that caused the fall were... a misperception of information recieved about Rand and Aviendha. My point was about how in every situation where the Forsaken is forced into a confrontation they had not planned for, they lost, irrespective of whether the light had planned for it either.

 

My belief is that Aviendha and Graendal's confrontation will result from chance. Specifically, Graendal will be attempting to divert the forces in Arad Domon when Aviendha realises that she is a shadowrunner. The confrontation will be spontaneous and unplanned.

 

Indeed, since i dont see Graendal dying in this confrontation, i would say that any degree of forethought on Aviendha's part is impossible--Aviendha has access to too many channelers, too many soldiers. And 'hunt' situation in which the hunters actually managed to confront Graendal must and would lead to Graendal's death.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK.  We were clearly approaching the question from different angles.  I was, indeed, speaking of Aviendha's chances in a happenstance encounter in comparison to one that she planned.

 

My point was about how in every situation where the Forsaken is forced into a confrontation they had not planned for, they lost, irrespective of whether the light had planned for it either.

 

That is true ... and somewhat dissapointing to me.  But the Forsaken's tactical ineptitude is a subject for another thread ... Sammael, at the very least, should have killed Rand.

[Luckers]

Sammael's death amused me. Something about the irony of him there, thinking he was this big bad dark dude, and Mashadar going "well, you know mate I'm fairly evil my ownself."

 

 

[TheRedSon]

Back to Slayer...  I could see Perrin being the one to finish him, but Luc is Rand's only living relative other than Galad and Isam is the last connection to Lan's family.  I think both of them are going to encounter him at some point.

[Mr Hindley]

Here's a thought - as several people have rightly pointed out, Aviendha doesn't know that Graendal is in Arad Domon. But on the flipside, does Graendal - or anyone for the dark - know in any meaningful way that Aviendha, a very powerful channeler, exists? Lanfear knows Aviendha, and had plenty of opportunity in the Waste to realise how strong Aviendha is (in today's terms, anyway). Would she have shared that knowledge? The other wondergirls, Egwene and Elayne, have fairly high profiles, and Nynaeve will be known by now from her efforts during the Cleansing. But Aviendha hasn't done much to capture the Dark One's notice, I'd imagine.

 

I just think that might increase her chances in an accidental encounter with Graendal. On the other hand, of all the Forsaken, Graendal seems to be the only one who doesn't make the fatal mistake of underestimating modern channelers. Still, I think Aviendha will take out Graendal simply because they're near to each other, and with only one book left, in story-telling terms why let her escape only to die with lots of others en-masse at the end, when you could use her as the individual focus of a whizz-bang action scene early on in the book. Not much time left for Graendal to do much other than get her ass whooped by an unexpected powerful channeler. Shame - Graendal is easily my favourite baddie of the lot.

 

Incidentally, given the 'Let the Lord of Chaos' rule edict, I'm surprised the Dark One hasn't put more concerted effort into taking out some of Rand's most powerful supporters e.g. Elayne (one surprise move by Careane might have done the trick; Daved Hanlon had a good opportunity when she was poisoned); or indeed, Nynaeve. No Nynaeve, no cleansing...