To Live, You Must Die

[warriordragon]

Kinda makes ya wonder what would happen to the bond he has with Aviendha, Elayne, and Min if he dies in a similar fashion to how Mat "died".

[Mr Ares]

Kinda makes ya wonder what would happen to the bond he has with Aviendha, Elayne, and Min if he dies in a similar fashion to how Mat "died".

When Mat died the effect was undone by balefire. If the same happened to rand then the same would happen to the bond - the bond-break effect would never happen because he never died. if you mean the hanging, Mat didn't die, so no effects on the bond here. No need for speculation at all.

It could also be as simple as to live in the next age you must die on this age...

Pretty weak, but not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Nelal Hurcran, RJ was quite the devout Christian, and considering all the religious, mythological, and philosophical refrences he makes throughout the series, not including a Jesus figure would be just plain wrong.  Of course Rand is Jesus, hes the savior of all mankind.

Why would it be wrong? And Rand is Jesus because he is the saviour? Is every saviour Jesus then?

 

thats pretty much how I saw it.  'to live you must be martyred.'  I think its a little known fact that if the DO were to 'win' and break the wheel, existence ceases.  the pattern is held taught by the wheel and if it were broken the whole pattern would unravel.  no one would die, they would cease to be...kinda like being balefired, only "TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!"  *snicker*

More like a well known fact, to those who know it well.

 

Most likely option: Rand dies, then lives again/is still living at same time - as Rand, not continued survival of Dragon soul.

[Darkholme]

My thoughts on this topic are that Rand will allow LTT to assume full control over his body and in turn reduce Rand to the "Buzzing" voice in the back of LTT's head. Now after reading what someone said of Rand burning himself out and therefore allowing LTT to die, Rand would then resume control over his body. Just thought I'd throw it in there.

[Shard]

Honestly this is feeling a lot like what happened in Harry Potter. Harry had to die in order to live and defeat Voldemort. It seems Rand will have to do much the same, he will have to die in some form or at least appear to. (body switch Maybe) By doing so that would give him the ability to use his full strength against the Dark One. Or perhaps to deliver a unexpected blow that will either imprison him again with out a taint on the one power. Or perminatly re-seal the bore as it was before Lanfear opened it to begin with.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

 

 

Oh I am so glad I am not the only one that thinks that, yes I think Rand will be doing the same thing. He'll walk into Shayol Goul and bleed over the place and die, then somehow be reborn. Not sure how that will work but to that's what the "To live, you must die" means.

[Nelal Hurcran]

Nelal Hurcran, RJ was quite the devout Christian, and considering all the religious, mythological, and philosophical refrences he makes throughout the series, not including a Jesus figure would be just plain wrong.  Of course Rand is Jesus, hes the savior of all mankind.

 

That is exactly the reason I believe that he didn't write it that way. For the most part, that I have seen, RJ stayed away from Christian characterizations, relying more heavily on other, usually older legends. Of course, that's where he didn't follow the regular fantasy clichés (which he only really did in EotW), or carve his own paths trough the wonderfully uncharted terrain of his own universe.

 

Yes, Rand is the "savior" of his world, but that dosn't mean he has to go to a "heaven" and come back in "shining glory."

[Luckers]

Nelal Hurcran, RJ was quite the devout Christian, and considering all the religious, mythological, and philosophical refrences he makes throughout the series, not including a Jesus figure would be just plain wrong.  Of course Rand is Jesus, hes the savior of all mankind.

 

Firstly, RJ was a Free Mason, with neo-christianic leanings. As such he belonged to a faith system that included multiple different religious backgrounds. Furthermore, Jesus and Rand specifically could not be more polarly opposed. Jesus was a spiritual leader who sought to modify the personal and spiritual beliefs of his people. Their inner wellbeing was the primrary function of his goal, even so far as to disavow the militaristic and political infrences in the maccabean prophecies about the Massiah.

 

Rand on the other hand is purely militaristic. His followers spiritual, personal and philosophical wellbeing dont matter jack to him.

 

About the only connection is that both were leaders, and even that is weak since Jesus didn't have many followers during his six months as a religious leader.

 

You want to look for religious or mythological basis for the character of Rand, look to Tyr, the Norse God of war and justice. A deity that brings chaos to form justice and order. Look to the eastern concept of the bhodisatva, the soul that is born over and over again in order to aid its people. Look to Avalokitesvara and Quan Yin. But don't look to Jesus.

[cloglord]

Not to be a wet blanket Luckers, but none of the references you give were marked on the palms of their hands, given a pointy crown, wounded in the side, and then allowed to die so that their blood could save the world.  The Christian references in Rands story are just as strong as the ones that you bring up.

 

I will grant you that Rand's life does not paralell Christ's, but it's not so cut and dry as you make out.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Take what you will from this RJ quote regarding his religious content:

 

Chat moderator: Were you influenced by the Bible book of Revelation? Your works seem to have many scriptural allusions.

Robert Jordan: There are a number of influences from the Bible, but from other sources as well. My work is not overtly religious in any way.

 

A bit ambiguous, at least it shows he take only minor inspiration from religious themes....

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't think Luckers is claiming that there are no parallels at all between Rand and the biblical figure of Christ.  If I understand his position correctly, what he is saying (and I completely agree with) is that while there are ephemeral similarities, Jesus is certainly not the basis for Rand's characteristics, ethical stances, methodology, etc.  The New Testament Christ was a teacher, first and foremost.  Rand is clearly a warrior.  While Rand does get marked in his palms, and get a thorny crown, and a wound in the side, the reasons and circumstances of those markings make them radically different in substance.

 

Yes, minor parallels can be found with Christian mythology, but there are much stronger, and clearer, influences from other sources.  Symbloic wounding and death of hero figures is something that is all but universal in human mythology.  As is some form of return from death.  Examples can be found in ancient Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, and Mayan cultural myths, just to name a few.

 

Because Jordan's readership is mostly Western, and Western culture is rife with Christian (and psuedo-Chrisitan) symbology, those things tend to jump out.  But the ideas are not unique to Western Christianity, nor the figure of Christ.