Aes Sedai vs Dreadlords

[dmanmiller34]

We all know that the Aes Sedai are bound by the 3 oaths and I think that we are all in agreement that they of all the channeler (except damane) are the most battle ready. But with the 3 oaths I don't think that they will be able to fight the Dreadlords at all. If they are Tiam's Rebel Ashaman(which i bleive they are) they they are technically not shadow spawn and they will not be bale to strike unless struck against. What do you think?

[Seriodor]

Then i guess they'll just have to wait till they feel threatened directly

[bcxanth]

Uhm, if you don't think an AS will see a Dreadlord as a threat to her life, then you need to think again. Any threat to her life, that of another AS, or her Warder, is cause to use the OP as a weapon. Witnes what the AS did at Dumai's Wells. They put themselves into harm's way so that they could then use the Power as a weapon.

[Seriodor]

...did i ever say they wouldn't see them as threats. I said that would be how they used the power...feeling threatened.

[bcxanth]

Actually, what you said was:

 

But with the 3 oaths I don't think that they will be able to fight the Dreadlords at all. If they are Tiam's Rebel Ashaman(which i bleive they are) they they are technically not shadow spawn and they will not be bale to strike unless struck against.

What I'm saying is that I believe that just by the virtue of them being Dreadlords the AS will see them as threats and not have to be struck against first.

[Luckers]

More problematic is facing damane. Indeed, its quite possible Aes Sedai won't even be able to bring themselves to make gateways for their soldiers as that comes under the lines of creating a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

Might even be funny. The aes Sedai go to all weave gateways, and all fail, except a few random black sisters.

 

Light sisters. "What the hell?"

Blacks. "Err... crap."

[DubbleChrisP]

More problematic is facing damane. Indeed, its quite possible Aes Sedai won't even be able to bring themselves to make gateways for their soldiers as that comes under the lines of creating a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

Might even be funny. The aes Sedai go to all weave gateways, and all fail, except a few random black sisters.

 

Light sisters. "What the hell?"

Blacks. "Err... crap."

 

Unlikely, really. A gateway isn't a weapon because it's not something that is directly harming an individual person. Unless of course they're using Rand's special Deathgates.

[Luckers]

No, but it is using the power to aid one man in killing another, and as Moiraine showed in New Spring, that oath covers more than merely making swords with the Power. When she grabs the would-be assasin with air, and Lan and the others shoot him she looses the power, and thinks queezily to herself that that was too much like using the power to create a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

The gateway itself isn't a weapon, so it escapes the third oath, but it would, in that situation, enable men to kill each other, which is caught by the second oath.

 

Though in truth the razor sharp edge of a gateway would restrict Aes Sedai use as well, as that is deadly, and would likely be construed as a weapon.

[Darth_Andrea]

I thought it was explained that the OP could only be used as a weapon on shadow spawn, Dark Friends IE Dreadlords, and in the last defence of the Aes Sedai's life. I might be wrong but I sword I read that somewhere.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[Despair]

I thought it was explained that the OP could only be used as a weapon on shadow spawn, Dark Friends IE Dreadlords, and in the last defence of the Aes Sedai's life. I might be wrong but I sword I read that somewhere.

 

Thank you.

 

Aes Sedai can unleash crazy ass power against anything from the dark side of the force.  Dreadlords would get slammed.  Just imagine, 1000 years and nothing to do. Oh, and they are all females hanging around each other.  2X disaster!  It has been explained over the later books how the Aes Sedai blasted the Darklords to splinters.  We've all been focused on the White Tower split, but give them a real focus (plus the Black tower) and there is some real fire power. 

[Gentled Ben]

Concerning Gateways and the 2nd Oath, I'm pretty sure that it's open to the individual's interpretation, much the same as saying no word that isn't true. If the Aes Sedai believes it's true, she may say it, and we've also seen them twist what kind of truth they're telling in order to be deceptive without lying. I think a Gateway for an army to march through would be a much lesser stretch for them. In fact, we've already seen one, when the rebels Traveled to Tar Valon.

[Despair]

A gateway breaks no oaths. It is a neutral casting.  What is the big deal?  Also, the AS in these books dont get gateways till book 10-11.  So what?

[Mr Ares]

A gateway breaks no oaths. It is a neutral casting.  What is the big deal?  Also, the AS in these books dont get gateways till book 10-11.  So what?

Young Gentled Ben appears to have the right of it. After all, if a sister should see it as breaking an oath, then it would constitute breaking an oath, regardless of whether or not someone else would see it as breaking an oath. If it is seen as "a weapon for one man to kill another" then they couldn't do it. If they just saw it as a means of transportation, even transportation to make it easier for one man to kill another, then it would not be a violation. And Young Luckers has already provided an example of something which is not technically a weapon possibly being considered such.

 

I thought it was explained that the OP could only be used as a weapon on shadow spawn, Dark Friends IE Dreadlords, and in the last defence of the Aes Sedai's life. I might be wrong but I sword I read that somewhere.

 

Young_Darth_Andrea

Whether darkfriends are considered covered as shadowspawn is another matter left to the individual sister.

[Luckers]

Concerning Gateways and the 2nd Oath, I'm pretty sure that it's open to the individual's interpretation, much the same as saying no word that isn't true. If the Aes Sedai believes it's true, she may say it, and we've also seen them twist what kind of truth they're telling in order to be deceptive without lying. I think a Gateway for an army to march through would be a much lesser stretch for them. In fact, we've already seen one, when the rebels Traveled to Tar Valon.

 

Indeed its open to interpretation, which is why i said 'it's even possible that Aes Sedai will not be able to weave gateways for the soldiers'. But that being said, if someone points out to the Aes Sedai that creating gateways for the purpose of allowing men to attack other men could be construed as making a weapon for them, i think they will have problems.

 

The gateway to Tar Valon was not the same, as there was no intention for immediate attack. The gateway existed for the purpose of moving an army, not facilitating that army in its assault.

 

A gateway breaks no oaths. It is a neutral casting.  What is the big deal?  Also, the AS in these books dont get gateways till book 10-11.  So what?

 

A gateway for the purpose of allowing a man to be able to attack another man is not nuetral, its specific in its intention; aiding one man in killing another and that does break the second oath.

 

I'm afraid i dont understand your second comment... firstly, Aes Sedai learnt gateways in book six, but secondly... what is the relevance to this debate of when they learnt travelling?

[Gentled Ben]

That's an awfully broad interpretation of "weapon," don't you think? It's possible that some Aes Sedai will be unable to weave them in order to facilitate an army, but seriously, do you really see enough of them interpreting it that way so as to cause a problem? And the Gateway allowing the army to Travel to Tar Valon was not different; that army Traveled in order to lay siege, which is part of warfare, and to attack if necessary. Also, the oath proscribes making a weapon for killing, and a Gateway is no such thing, as no man can wield it to kill another. You might just as easily say that they cannot Heal wounded soldiers, as those men are essentially weapons, and as soon as they're Healed, they'll return to killing other men, yet we know that isn't the case, as many Aes Sedai had no trouble Healing professional soldiers during the Trolloc Wars and the Aiel War as well. I don't see how logistic support of an army, which is all a Gateway really is, would be considered by any but a tiny minority to be "creating a weapon," but I guess we'll see in the last book.

[Luckers]

That's an awfully broad interpretation of "weapon," don't you think?

 

Not really, no.

 

It's possible that some Aes Sedai will be unable to weave them in order to facilitate an army, but seriously, do you really see enough of them interpreting it that way so as to cause a problem?

 

Yes, I do. Especially if one attempts it and fails, and others witness.

 

And the Gateway allowing the army to Travel to Tar Valon was not different; that army Traveled in order to lay siege, which is part of warfare, and to attack if necessary.

 

I beg to differ. The gate to travel to Tar Valon was part of no overt assault, and served for no direct action (or facilitator) of violence between any two men. Therefore there is a very large difference.

 

Even the most stubborn Aes Sedai would be able to percieve mental loops allowing the gate to Tar Valon to be permissable... it served a function in negotiation, it brought them in for talks. That is very different from using gateways to allow a man access to another man in order that he kill that man.

 

Also, the oath proscribes making a weapon for killing, and a Gateway is no such thing, as no man can wield it to kill another.

 

Actually in those circumstances the gateway would be a weapon. The oath specifically forbids using the Power to create a weapon for one man to kill another. Using the power to create a gateway for the specific purpose of aiding a soldier in attacking the enemy comes under that.

 

You might just as easily say that they cannot Heal wounded soldiers, as those men are essentially weapons, and as soon as they're Healed, they'll return to killing other men, yet we know that isn't the case, as many Aes Sedai had no trouble Healing professional soldiers during the Trolloc Wars and the Aiel War as well.

 

Actually you mightent. In that situation the specific purpose of the weave does not serve the function of abetting a man in violence. Certainly the presumption of what that man will do once he is healed is there, but there is more than enough mental leg room to get around the oath. Much as the initial gateway to Tar Valon was ambiguos enough in purpose that it was not an issue. Creating a gateway for the soul purpose of a violent assault, however, is not ambiguos.

 

I don't see how logistic support of an army, which is all a Gateway really is, would be considered by any but a tiny minority to be "creating a weapon," but I guess we'll see in the last book.

 

In what way is a gateway 'logistic support' in that circumstances. They are not being used to bring supplies to soldiers on the front line. That would certainly not be forbidden under the oath. But using gateways in the manner we are discussing, to allow soldiers to attack the enemy, very much is a weaponisation of the weave. In that situation the gateway serves as a siege engine, and is very much a weapon of war.

[Gentled Ben]

Luckers, facilitating an army's transportation to battle and Healing a soldier so that he can return to battle are really no different.

Using the power to create a gateway for the specific purpose of aiding a soldier in attacking the enemy comes under that.

No, it doesn't, although if we were Aes Sedai, it would for you, but not for me, and therein lies the crux of our disagreement. I could weave the Gateway for them, and you could not. Like I said, I guess we'll see in the final book whether or not you're right and most of them can or cannot, as surely, it will be attempted.

 

In what way is a gateway 'logistic support' in that circumstances. They are not being used to bring supplies to soldiers on the front line.

Doesn't transportation of the army itself come under the same heading? In the US Navy, the troop transport ships are all part of the Mobile Logistics Support Fleet; they are not considered warships.

 

Quote

It's possible that some Aes Sedai will be unable to weave them in order to facilitate an army, but seriously, do you really see enough of them interpreting it that way so as to cause a problem?

 

Yes, I do. Especially if one attempts it and fails, and others witness.

LOL, but you and I are both being stubborn enough to continue disagreeing about it even after we've each heard and understood the other's views, and I doubt if we're as intransigent as Aes Sedai.  :P

[Luckers]

Luckers, facilitating an army's transportation to battle and Healing a soldier so that he can return to battle are really no different.

 

I beg to differ. They are different in precisely the manner that will stop an Aes Sedai from doing one, whilst she can do the other. One serves only the function of helping a man fight in war, and that is precisely the definition of a weapon. The other enables him to fight again, yes, but it also serves other purposes--his ongoing life, for the most obvious reasons. This provides the mental wriggle room that allows Aes Sedai to do it.

 

The first has no such wriggle room. That is the very function of the issue. It may strike you as patently stupid, but the oaths are patently stupid, so...

 

Using the power to create a gateway for the specific purpose of aiding a soldier in attacking the enemy comes under that.

No, it doesn't, although if we were Aes Sedai, it would for you, but not for me, and therein lies the crux of our disagreement. I could weave the Gateway for them, and you could not. Like I said, I guess we'll see in the final book whether or not you're right and most of them can or cannot, as surely, it will be attempted.

 

I actually soubt that you would be able to. The Oaths don't just react to personal rationalisations, they react to inner knowledge. The fact that you even raised the suggestion of healing shows an establishment of mental degrees on your part that i believe very much would hinder your ability to weave a gateway.

 

In what way is a gateway 'logistic support' in that circumstances. They are not being used to bring supplies to soldiers on the front line.

Doesn't transportation of the army itself come under the same heading? In the US Navy, the troop transport ships are all part of the Mobile Logistics Support Fleet; they are not considered warships.

 

This isn't transportation of an army, though. The movement of the army to Tar Valon classifies as that, as i said, and would therefore be allowed. This is assisting the army specifically in an attack, which makes the gateways siege engines not transportation. As indeed i went on to state in my last post--"But using gateways in the manner we are discussing, to allow soldiers to attack the enemy, very much is a weaponisation of the weave. In that situation the gateway serves as a siege engine, and is very much a weapon of war."

 

LOL, but you and I are both being stubborn enough to continue disagreeing about it even after we've each heard and understood the other's views, and I doubt if we're as intransigent as Aes Sedai.

 

Us? Being stubborn? Now I know your a complete loon. :)

[Charlz Guybon]

We all know that the Aes Sedai are bound by the 3 oaths and I think that we are all in agreement that they of all the channeler (except damane) are the most battle ready. But with the 3 oaths I don't think that they will be able to fight the Dreadlords at all. If they are Tiam's Rebel Ashaman(which i bleive they are) they they are technically not shadow spawn and they will not be bale to strike unless struck against. What do you think?

 

Page 295, Chapter 23, The Great Hunt, Sheriam to Nynaeve.

"To Speak no word that is not true. To make no weapon for one man to kill another.  Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister."

[Luckers]

Yet in direct contradiction to that, when we see Moiraine swear the oath in New Spring, she only says 'shadowspawn'.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The crux of this issue is that it is all in the Aes Sedai's mind.

 

If the Sister thinks of what she is doing as a weapon, then she can't do it, except to Shadowspawn, or maybe Darkfriends (again, depending on how her mind interprets the Oath).

 

So, Sisters with a logic-chopping bent of mind may have problems using gateways to transport soldiers to battle.  I'm thinking Whites and Grays here mostly, though certainly not exclusively.  Greens and Blues and Reds, for the most part, should have no problem.  Browns and Yellows, I'm guessing, will be in between.

 

The short of it, on this particular question, is that between the Asha'man, Windfinders, Wise Ones, Kin, and those Sisters who feel able, the Light should have plenty of gateway weavers for battle.

[TheRedSon]

Moving an army with the OP from Salidar to Tar Valon = logistics

 

Moving an army (or more likly a company) of soldiers from the barraks in Tar Valon to a location approximately 20 meters behind an enemy with the OP and with no warning = tactics

 

That difference may be subtle to a Navy man, but us grunts don't need a lot of imagination (thank God) to figure it out.

[Kura]

The issue of whether or not a gateway can be used as a weapon raises a question, does the order or some other factor effect the importance of any oath over the other?

 

I ask this, because any army that a light AS would send a gateway against in TG is most likely to be filled with shadowspawn and darkfriends. This would allow it by the oath of not to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn and darkfriends, but as darkfriends are included in this than, depending on that Aes Sedai's views, would be creating a weapon for one man to kill another. 

 

And as a sidenote that has no real importance, could an Aes Sedai make a wepaon for a woman to kill a woman/man? :-P Same issue as the bible constantly saying mankind, but then makes the distinction later on, kinda amusing to look at and think about.  ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

The issue of whether or not a gateway can be used as a weapon raises a question, does the order or some other factor effect the importance of any oath over the other?

 

The answer to this, and any other question about the Oaths, let this answer apply:

 

Its all in their mind.  Whatever each one thinks the answer is, thats the answer for them.  Its the ultimate form of relativism.

[TheRedSon]

The issue of whether or not a gateway can be used as a weapon raises a question, does the order or some other factor effect the importance of any oath over the other?

 

The answer to this, and any other question about the Oaths, let this answer apply:

 

Its all in their mind.  Whatever each one thinks the answer is, thats the answer for them.  Its the ultimate form of relativism.

 

So they could make a steak knife with the One Power?