The Forsaken, Tel'aran'rhiod & The Heroes of the Horn

[The Dragon Reborn]

This is something that recently occurred to me....It's well established that the Forsaken spend a reasonable amount of time in Tel'aran'rhiod and that Moghedien in particular considers it as her domain. She is known to have the greatest ability to control her environment in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

She's extremely powerful there...and it's known that the Heroes of the Horn reside there until either being spun out into the pattern again, or being called by the Horn. Why don't the Forsaken (Moghedien in particular) go after the Heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod seeing as they are a threat to the DO at TG? ??? They are clearly vulnerable (Birgette would have died if not bonded by Elayne...) Even if Moghedien just used that 'ripping weave' or whatever it was again, it's unlikely that any channelers would be around to bond them, or even if there were they wouldn't likely think of it...

 

This seems like a fairly attractive plan of attack for the Forsaken to me...What do people think?

 

 

 

NOTE: Before anybody mentions that Moghedien is on a short leash held by the DO at the moment....she could have done this long ago, I'm only asking why it hasn't been done or attempted (to our knowledge)...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Birgitte could only be harmed by Moghedien after she violted the precepts of T'A'R (she revealed herself). I think it is safe to assume that had she not broken the rules, she couldn't have been harmed.

 

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

That about sums it up.  I would go a little farther and say that the Forsaken in general do not know the Heroes hang out there.  Even if they suspected, they would never be able to locate them.  The Heroes live there so that likely gives them a significant advantage concerning understanding the rules over occasionaly visitors like the Forsaken.

 

Addition:  What Moghedien did actually shows how stupid she can be in her actions.  Birgitte was expecting to get spun out soon.  If that would have happened, she wouldn't have been available for Tarmon Gaidon.  Now she is.

[lou]

yes, mog really should have thought that one through.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Birgitte could only be harmed by Moghedien after she violted the precepts of T'A'R (she revealed herself). I think it is safe to assume that had she not broken the rules, she couldn't have been harmed.

 

 

I suppose it kinda comes down to: 'She was dumb enough to expose herself, and she got caught out.'

On a side note, another thing about this that I've been wondering....where did these 'precepts' come from? Gaidal Cain gave out to Birgette about breaking the precepts like he almost feared punishment, from who? (I'm exaggerating slightly but you get the point.) I don't actually believe there is someone who would punish them or anything but I would like to know how these precepts came about...I suppose they could be something the Heroes of the Horn came up with themselves to keep themselves hidden and safe so they could be called when the time was right...Opinions?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I couldn't say where I think the precepts come from. But I don't think Gaidal Cain was afraid of being punished; rather, I think he was afraid because he believed that bad things happen when you violate the precepts of T'A'R.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What Moghedien did actually shows how stupid she can be in her actions.  Birgitte was expecting to get spun out soon.  If that would have happened, she wouldn't have been available for Tarmon Gaidon.  Now she is.

 

I'm not sure that was so much stupid as it was ignorant ... one of the things the Forsaken haven't had much opportunity to study is the Warder bond.  What Moghedien did couldn't have been fixed by regular Healing, Nynaeve was going all out with that and getting nowhere.  It was some odd property of the Warder bond that saved Birgitte, and I'm not sure there's any realistic way Moghedien could have known about that.  It was a good plan, given what she knew.

 

As to Birgitte getting caught out because she broke the rules, well, we know thats exactly what happened.  Like most consequences of rule breaking, the "punishment" is not some arbitrary sentence handed down by a capricious "Sky Bully", it is simply the result of doing what was forbidden, because it was forbidden for a reason.

 

The Heroes are vulnerable in Tel'aran'rhiod in ways that they are not when they are called by the Horn, or even when spun out normally.  Therefore, not revealing themselves is common sense.

 

But, as the saying goes, take what you want, and pay for it.  Birgitte wanted to help against the Shadow, and to her, it was worth the risk and the price.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I can accept it being ignorance on Moghedien's part.  At least to a certain extent.  Eventually, the Forsaken can't be excused for bad decisions based on ignorance as they have had lots of opportunity to realize the world doesn't work the way they do.

 

Which is why I say stupidity played a part.  The fact that she could do what she did tells me she probably could have outright killed Birgitte in Tel'aran'rhiod too.  Instead, Moghedien was motivated by a desire to make Birgitte suffer as much as possible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Which is why I say stupidity played a part.  The fact that she could do what she did tells me she probably could have outright killed Birgitte in Tel'aran'rhiod too.  Instead, Moghedien was motivated by a desire to make Birgitte suffer as much as possible.

 

Now that is a valid point.  To that extent, Moghedien did, indeed, act stupidly.

[Seriodor]

wait, on the question of who made the precepts im pretty sure it's safe to say it was one of those original laws of nature that the creator put down when he made their world, if they broke em bad things would happen, and they did.

[drovja]

I'm pretty sure the general view of the Creator in the WoT universe is that once he created the world, he stepped back and doesn't take part.  Somewhere in the BWB it compares the Creator to a gardener, saying a gardener doesn't weep for every blossom that falls, therefore the Creator wouldn't weep about the problems of the world.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, drovja, thats in Rand's second POV, CoT, ch 24.

 

The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their own choosing.  The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond.  A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

[The Dragon Reborn]

wait, on the question of who made the precepts im pretty sure it's safe to say it was one of those original laws of nature that the creator put down when he made their world, if they broke em bad things would happen, and they did.

Ok even if it was one of these laws of nature, or whatever how did people find out about them? It's not like the creator visited them or anything, and I hardly believe he left a book called 'The Precepts of Tel'aran'rhiod :P

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Actually, drovja, thats in Rand's second POV, CoT, ch 24.

 

The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their own choosing.  The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond.  A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

Something makes me wonder how Lews Therin/Rand could possibly know that for truth. It's probably some philosphy from the Age of Legends, yet they couldn't be in any position to know that unless they spoke  to the Creator himself.

[jaimevotrechapeau]

A note on the Forsaken: How do they all gain access to TAR so freely? Would it be part of being buddies with the DO, or do they all have terangreal or all they all Dreamwalkers? But seemingly they can enter it whenever and however they wish as per their many meetings midwayish through the series

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I would guess that they might usually enter in their bodily form. But there have been hints that Dreaming is an ability that can be learned.

[chawthor]

wait, on the question of who made the precepts im pretty sure it's safe to say it was one of those original laws of nature that the creator put down when he made their world, if they broke em bad things would happen, and they did.

Ok even if it was one of these laws of nature, or whatever how did people find out about them? It's not like the creator visited them or anything, and I hardly believe he left a book called 'The Precepts of Tel'aran'rhiod :P

 

Take the law of gravity - there was no Creator that came and told mankind that "if you step off the edge of a cliff, you will fall".  People just learned from experience.  I'd expect it's the same as the precepts of TAR - through the many turnings of the Wheel, people (the Heroes of the Horn, for instance) learned what they could and couldn't do, and what actions would cause bad things to happen.  Humanity didn't have to have a conference to decide that people shouldn't walk off cliffs, it just came to be an implied understanding.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I would guess that they might usually enter in their bodily form. But there have been hints that Dreaming is an ability that can be learned.

 

The only think I can think of that suggests it is the one scene were the Forsaken thinks someone must be using a training Ter'angreal because they were appearing misty.  I can't remember who the someone that was seen was, which Forsaken the thought was from or what book it was in.  Just that the person being referred to was using one of the Dream Ter'angreal.  How's that for a nice vague reference to a passage.

 

The Forsaken may have simply been implying that the Ter'angreal were used only until the trainee knew enough to be trusted to enter in the flesh.

 

wait, on the question of who made the precepts im pretty sure it's safe to say it was one of those original laws of nature that the creator put down when he made their world, if they broke em bad things would happen, and they did.

Ok even if it was one of these laws of nature, or whatever how did people find out about them? It's not like the creator visited them or anything, and I hardly believe he left a book called 'The Precepts of Tel'aran'rhiod :P

 

Take the law of gravity - there was no Creator that came and told mankind that "if you step off the edge of a cliff, you will fall".  People just learned from experience.  I'd expect it's the same as the precepts of TAR - through the many turnings of the Wheel, people (the Heroes of the Horn, for instance) learned what they could and couldn't do, and what actions would cause bad things to happen.  Humanity didn't have to have a conference to decide that people shouldn't walk off cliffs, it just came to be an implied understanding.

 

I think the question was meant to be how did the person who made the Horn find out the Heroes waited in Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Gentled Ben]

I remember that too, but not clearly. I'm almost certain it was Demandred, but I'm not sure who he observed, or what book it was in.

[The Dragon Reborn]

wait, on the question of who made the precepts im pretty sure it's safe to say it was one of those original laws of nature that the creator put down when he made their world, if they broke em bad things would happen, and they did.

Ok even if it was one of these laws of nature, or whatever how did people find out about them? It's not like the creator visited them or anything, and I hardly believe he left a book called 'The Precepts of Tel'aran'rhiod :P

 

Take the law of gravity - there was no Creator that came and told mankind that "if you step off the edge of a cliff, you will fall".  People just learned from experience.  I'd expect it's the same as the precepts of TAR - through the many turnings of the Wheel, people (the Heroes of the Horn, for instance) learned what they could and couldn't do, and what actions would cause bad things to happen.  Humanity didn't have to have a conference to decide that people shouldn't walk off cliffs, it just came to be an implied understanding.

I took up what you said the wrong way I guess. I thought the same myself about The Heroes of the Horn, making the rules themselves through trial and error.

[Seriodor]

I dont feel like making my post huge with like a thousand quotes so im just gonna say, i think that after the ages reapeating over and over again for who knows how long, that they would eventually sit down and say "well we've lost some heroes from them interfering, so lets make that a rule, and..." etc.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I remember that too, but not clearly. I'm almost certain it was Demandred, but I'm not sure who he observed, or what book it was in.

 

I'm not sure I follow that one.  Were you addressing my last post, or a different one?

 

That I know of, Moghedien was the only Forsaken to spot one of the Heroes hiding out in Tel'aran'rhiod.  That was when she ripped Birgitte out.  That has no connection on how the people who made the Horn knew the Heroes are there though.

[Gentled Ben]

It was Demandred who saw someone using the "training ter'angreal" ring, if IIRC. Sorry for the confusion.

[verby]

Birgitte could only be harmed by Moghedien after she violted the precepts of T'A'R (she revealed herself). I think it is safe to assume that had she not broken the rules, she couldn't have been harmed.

 

 

I suppose it kinda comes down to: 'She was dumb enough to expose herself, and she got caught out.'

On a side note, another thing about this that I've been wondering....where did these 'precepts' come from? Gaidal Cain gave out to Birgette about breaking the

precepts like he almost feared punishment, from who? (I'm exaggerating slightly but you get the point.) I don't actually believe there is someone who would punish them or anything but I would like to know how these precepts came about...I suppose they could be something the Heroes of the Horn came up with themselves to keep themselves hidden and safe so they could be called when the time was right...Opinions?

 

I believe the precepts were created by Artur Hawking, but the real question is, why did Hawking fight his own armies at Falme? Though it was said that the Heroes would fight Tarmon'Gaidon for the shadow if the Shadow blew it.

[drovja]

Though it was said that the Heroes would fight Tarmon'Gaidon for the shadow if the Shadow blew it.

 

That's exactly it. The Heroes of the Horn fight not for themselves, not for their own sense of right and wrong, but at the direction of the Hornsounder.