Theory on asmos murder

[Luckers]

He was dead at Lanfear's hand before Asmodean died, and besides, he faces the same issues any other non-channeler does... how'd he get to Caemlyn, how'd he kill an active channeler who knew he was there... so on, so forth.

[Seriodor]

o ya i forgot that lanfear 'sploded him srry. well then, ya it was probably Graendal.

[TheRedSon]

Is there any indication of how much time passes between Asmo's recognition of his killer and the moment he was killed? 

 

Is it possible that all he had time for was recognition?

[Darkness Incarnated]

I would like to avoid this question--it will spark off another discussion I remember having--, but I can't stop my fingers. We've seen that channelers' reactions are thought-fast, and I will always believe that from the very moment he became aware of his killer to the second he died Asmodean could have reacted, be it to throw a ball of fire or whatever else in his limits he could have come up with. But he was so stunned he just stood there dumbly. In other words, I do not believe his death was instantaneous.

[Seriodor]

Well maybe with that shield like thing on him, it made it a little more strainful, or whoever it was terrified him so bad he couldnt accomplish the void.

[TheRedSon]

I would like to avoid this question--it will spark off another discussion I remember having--, but I can't stop my fingers. We've seen that channelers' reactions are thought-fast, and I will always believe that from the very moment he became aware of his killer to the second he died Asmodean could have reacted, be it to throw a ball of fire or whatever else in his limits he could have come up with. But he was so stunned he just stood there dumbly. In other words, I do not believe his death was instantaneous.

 

I won't disagree with that statement.  I think once the connection to the power has been made they can weave as fast as they can think (I don't know how long it takes to grasp the source although it can't be very long).  However, thoughts don't always work at the same speed.  Surprise, exhaustion, shock and fear can all slow down mental response time and it's probably fair to say Asmo was dealing with some or all of those when he stumbled into his killer.  He may have already been intoxicated and the presence of whoever this person was apparently confused him.  If a non channeler was trying to do him in they couldn't have hoped for much better circumstances in which to meet him. 

 

If it took more than a couple of seconds for Asmo to gather his thoughts that's more than enough time for several characters we know of to finish him before he began to defend himself. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

We've seen that channelers' reactions are thought-fast, and I will always believe that from the very moment he became aware of his killer to the second he died Asmodean could have reacted, be it to throw a ball of fire or whatever else in his limits he could have come up with.

 

Hmm ... yes, he could have, except perhaps against another channeler.  Say, if part of the reason his face drained of blood is the same instant he both saw his attacker's (*cough* Graendal *cough*) face and felt a shield slip between him and the Source.  No fast-as-thought channeling then ...

[TheRedSon]

What is Sammael's alibi?

 

It seems he's just as obvious a suspect as Graendal.

[Graikos]

AHHH..Thats where I come in. I think its sammy. But I have to go to bed, I'm tired and this will be a long post. Ohhh Ok, Let me say that asmo was not bale fired because death took him. If he was knocked out of existance there would be no death to take. Also (I don't have the info in front of me) Sammy and Gren lied to each other all the time. There was a time that sammy acted mad, but when Gren left he smiled. I'll get the proper quote later. So I think he was pulling her chain just as much as she was pulling his. It's one of the two, But my money is on Sammy. Especially when blood drains from Asmo's face. I believe the only one that would do that to him is sammy. There was a part in an earlyer book when rand just mentions Sammys name and that made Asmo face go pale. I think thats a link. Sorry for the rushed post.

 

<Weaves fingers in knot

[lou]

What is Sammael's alibi?

 

It seems he's just as obvious a suspect as Graendal.

 

the only problem with sammael, is rand himself. first of all, sammael will never attack on rand's turf, sammael will want to draw rand to him, and his many traps. sammael only directly attacks when he feels certain that he can win. second reason is that use of saidan would alert rand to a male intruder and give a pinpoint location. it seems more likely that it was saidar that was used.

[Okvoz al-Vrag]

It fits Graendal's nature. In the event of an assault she would hide, not stand and fight. Beyond which i do doubt that she would wait with Rhavin in person. There is too much mistrust for that. But yes, she would have been enarby waiting for Lanfears signal. And its around midday or after that the attack took place. Events at the wharf were in the morning, this took place later.

 

Not sure I completely agree.  It was in her nature to avoid direct confrontation.  Her POV's at Forsaken club meetings indicate taht she longed for the day when the others bowed down and acknolwedged her Nae'blis. Then, too, Asmodean was considered among the weakest of the Chosen and wasn't really a threat to her.  He was, however, quite handsome, perhaps to some and charming --- the kind of meatpupput she would Compel into her collection if she got the drop on them.

 

The only two among the Forsaken who have shown any propensity for directly attacking another of Chosen are Ishamael and Lanfear. When Ishy supposedly died in the Stone of Tear, his final words are a petulant/piteous call for help to some unseen benefactor, presumably the Dark One. Given the description of him shrinking away, did any of us think he was permanently dead?  Given he's the Nae'blis, he would certainly move to the head of the reincarnation line. 

 

We know from numerous examples that Moridin physically spies on the other Chosen, making his presence in Camelyn but not with Rhavin plausible.  He is also prepared to improvise/intervene as he did in Shadar Logoth. Asmodean's death has all the markings of a crime of opportunity, i.e., the killer wasn't looking for him.  They stumbled across each other, and the killer acted.  Again, Ishy and Lanfear are the most likely among the Forsaken or anyone to react this way toward him.  Since Asmodean wouldn't have yet encountered Moridin or Cyndane (even if she had reincarnated by then --- time doens't move the same in A/Eland as Randland), how could Asmo recognize his attacker?  The sa'a floating across Moridin's eyes, especially when he used the True Power.  Being Balefired by True Power would also explain why no channelers sensed Saidin or Saidar from the attack.  Finally, Moridin as the culprit would provide a very Jordan-like irony to "when Death took him" --- allowing the "intuitively obvious" comment.

 

The theories in suppport of Graendal and the others are very clever, impressive even.  I willingly concede that they could be correct instead.  But, the scenario above provides the most Occam answer.

[Pin This]

ok why would grendy do it... by all evidence she doesnt do anything by herself, i mean look at all her servants....she does not seem one to do the dirty work likly RJ is pulllin are leg and its someone we dont expext like ....hypotheticaly...ill wait to tell u my theory

[Cybertrolloc]

Okvoz al-Vrag, RJ specifically said that death taking Asmo is not a reference to Moridin.

 

For a defensive guy, Sammael sure got around a lot and mixed it up on offense ;) He's cleared by his conversation with Graendal: when he says that he'll kill Asmo and Lanfear next he sees them he thinks about how he has to control his temper, so it's reasonable to assume he's not lying. I don't see much else that doesn't reek of presumption that ensures he has no knowledge of what went on in Caemlyn that day if not before the fact. I think it's pretty arguable that he wouldn't go there and do whatever (he ruminates on Al Thor taking out the other Forsaken then he stomping Rand in the end "the way it was meant to be").

[nashdude]

We know from numerous examples that Moridin physically spies on the other Chosen, making his presence in Camelyn but not with Rhavin plausible.  He is also prepared to improvise/intervene as he did in Shadar Logoth. Asmodean's death has all the markings of a crime of opportunity, i.e., the killer wasn't looking for him.  They stumbled across each other, and the killer acted.  Again, Ishy and Lanfear are the most likely among the Forsaken or anyone to react this way toward him.  Since Asmodean wouldn't have yet encountered Moridin or Cyndane (even if she had reincarnated by then --- time doens't move the same in A/Eland as Randland), how could Asmo recognize his attacker?  The sa'a floating across Moridin's eyes, especially when he used the True Power.  Being Balefired by True Power would also explain why no channelers sensed Saidin or Saidar from the attack.  Finally, Moridin as the culprit would provide a very Jordan-like irony to "when Death took him" --- allowing the "intuitively obvious" comment.

 

My thoughts exactly. I'd even take it a step further. RJ said that the answer should be intuitively obvious EVEN TO THE MOST CASUAL OBSERVER. And which baddie has had more FACE TIME than any other throughout the entire series? Ishamael. Or in terms of who his is this far along... Moridin. That's something that the most "casual observer" would latch onto in a heartbeat.

 

Also, I'm surprised that anyone thought Sammael might have escaped being killed following Moridin's PoV in the prologue of tPoD...

 

"A complex game, sha'rah, ancient long before the War of Power. Sha'rah, tcheran, and no'ri, the game now called simply 'stones', each had adherents who claimed it encompassed all the subtleties of life, but Moridin had always favored sha'rah. Only nine people living even remembered the game."

 

Thirteen forsaken. Let's count them up...

 

1. Aginor (Osan'gar) -- alive

2. Asmodean -- dead (the very corpse in question hehe)

3. Balthamel (Aran'gar) -- alive

4. Be'lal -- dead by BF

5. Demandred -- alive

6. Rahvin -- dead by BF

7. Ishamael (Moridin) -- alive

8. Sammael -- dead by Mashadar (per RJ interview)

9. Graendal -- alive

10. Lanfear (Cyndane) -- alive

11. Mesaana -- alive

12. Moghedien -- alive

13. Semirhage -- alive

 

See that? Nine, as of the tPoD prologue. So Moridin was in the know---probably straight from the DO---and knew immediately that Sammael had bit the big one. This one didn't need RJ's comment to clarify, but I'm glad he did anyway  :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um ... the "casual observer" at the end of TFoH had never seen Moridin, or transmigration.  Ishamael was just plain dead, at the time of Asmo's murder, and Moridin doesn't show up in any form until two books later.

 

On the other hand, the baddies who got the most "face time" in TFoH were the cabal of Graendal, Sammael, Rahvin, and Lanfear.  The whole book is framed by their plot.  At the time of Asmo's murder, Sammael was in Illian waiting for Rand to attack, Rahvin was dead, and Lanfear was either dead or stuck in 'finn-land (we now know, of course, that it was the second).  Leaving?

 

Graendal.

[Luckers]

In addition, on Sammael, we have his thoughts on Asmodean during LoC, and they show that he is uncertain that Asmodean is even dead.

 

[TheRedSon]

Sammael's plan was to be in Illian...  Are we sure the Forsaken weren't aware the plan had failed?  Why did Lanfear go nuts in Cairhien if she's still planning on defeating Rand in Illian?

 

I think there were two suspicious servants in a place they shouldn't have been while Rand was chasing Rahvin through the palace at the end of tFoH.  Possibly Graendel and Sammael?

 

Also, I'm surprised that anyone thought Sammael might have escaped being killed following Moridin's PoV in the prologue of tPoD...

 

What does that have to do with who killed Asmodean?  He's killed at the end of tFoH (the 5th book).  Sammael dies at the end of aCoS (the 7th book).  There's over a thousand pages between the deaths of Asmodean and Sammael.

[callandor]

Um ... the "casual observer" at the end of TFoH had never seen Moridin, or transmigration.  Ishamael was just plain dead, at the time of Asmo's murder, and Moridin doesn't show up in any form until two books later.

 

On the other hand, the baddies who got the most "face time" in TFoH were the cabal of Graendal, Sammael, Rahvin, and Lanfear.  The whole book is framed by their plot.  At the time of Asmo's murder, Sammael was in Illian waiting for Rand to attack, Rahvin was dead, and Lanfear was either dead or stuck in 'finn-land (we now know, of course, that it was the second).  Leaving?

 

Graendal.

 

i just thought of something. what if moridin had already been reborn or whatever soon after he died, and he still knew how to do the face of flames thing. and if he killed asmo with the TP so rand didnt notice that anyone had channeled. asmo might have recognized the face of ba'alazmon, hence his surprise.

 

and if thats wrong, then i would think that moggy would be my next guess, unless if someone has proven me wrong or RAW has a quote from his big bag... :P

[TheRedSon]

Mogs was already sporting her new leashed look.

[Cadsuane]

i just thought of something. what if moridin had already been reborn or whatever soon after he died, and he still knew how to do the face of flames thing. and if he killed asmo with the TP so rand didnt notice that anyone had channeled. asmo might have recognized the face of ba'alazmon, hence his surprise.

 

But the readers wouldn't KNOW that Moridin had been reborn, because we wouldn't have seen him. The readers are supposed to find it to be intuitively obvious at the moment it happens, without reading ahead to say "ohhhhh, Ishy was reborn, it must have been HIM that killed Asmodean X hundred pages ago".

 

It had to be someone who we as readers thought was ALIVE at the time Asmo bit the dust. Ishamael does not fit that requirement, as we did not KNOW he was/going to be reborn.

[Cybertrolloc]

and if thats wrong, then i would think that moggy would be my next guess, unless if someone has proven me wrong or RAW has a quote from his big bag... :P

Moggy has an alibi.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Indeed.  She was a little busy being captured by Nynaeve at the time.

[Okvoz al-Vrag]

But the readers wouldn't KNOW that Moridin had been reborn, because we wouldn't have seen him. The readers are supposed to find it to be intuitively obvious at the moment it happens, without reading ahead to say "ohhhhh, Ishy was reborn, it must have been HIM that killed Asmodean X hundred pages ago".

 

It had to be someone who we as readers thought was ALIVE at the time Asmo bit the dust. Ishamael does not fit that requirement, as we did not KNOW he was/going to be reborn.

 

RJ said he always thought it was intuitively obvious. I must confess that my intuition strayed to Lanfear and Ishy once the initial shock wore off.  Neither truly and fully died in front of us. The DO's moniker "Lord of the Grave" and the underlying concept of champions being reborn (as in The Dragon Reborn), made me expect to see Ishy again. Because of M.'s note to Thom, I absolutely expected to see Lanfear again. It was hard to believe that Lanfear had resurfaced so quickly since Ishy hadn't made an official appearance.

 

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

When asked about "death took him" being a dastardly pun (Moridin translating to "Death), he vehemently denied it.

[Mr Ares]

But the readers wouldn't KNOW that Moridin had been reborn, because we wouldn't have seen him. The readers are supposed to find it to be intuitively obvious at the moment it happens, without reading ahead to say "ohhhhh, Ishy was reborn, it must have been HIM that killed Asmodean X hundred pages ago".

 

It had to be someone who we as readers thought was ALIVE at the time Asmo bit the dust. Ishamael does not fit that requirement, as we did not KNOW he was/going to be reborn.

RJ said he always thought it was intuitively obvious. I must confess that my intuition strayed to Lanfear and Ishy once the initial shock wore off.  Neither truly and fully died in front of us. The DO's moniker "Lord of the Grave" and the underlying concept of champions being reborn (as in The Dragon Reborn), made me expect to see Ishy again. Because of M.'s note to Thom, I absolutely expected to see Lanfear again. It was hard to believe that Lanfear had resurfaced so quickly since Ishy hadn't made an official appearance.

The problem with this is that every candidate is intuitively obvious to someone. Cwestervelt said that Moiraine was obvious to him, others have said Lanfear, others LTT, or Bashere, Aviendha, Sammael, Graendal, Lee Harvey Oswald, Lord Vetinari, King Aerys II, Mr Darcy, you get the picture. It gets us no closer to the answer to know that someone is intuitively obvious to someone. Ishy did die truly and fully in front of us. The concept of champions reborn we knew of, but that takes nine months (give or take) of pregnancy, followed by growing up, so unless you expected a toddler Ishy (if only) or the invention of a new power (you would have been correct in that guess) then it couldn't be Ishy. As it is, if we can solve this mystery using only clues given as of the end of FOH, Ishy (dead) is out, Morry (not introduced) is out, SH (same) is out, anyone else involving transmigration is out (we had no reason to suspect the existence of this power). Anyone subsequently ruled out, either by their own thought processes, or by RJ is ruled out. For it to be M or L, we must make a string of assumptions about their channeling status, their ability to get out of captivity, their willingness to go back in (or inability to prevent it), that they were actually allowed to make bargains, that if they could, those bargains would enable the Finn to send out and bring back M&L, and so on and so forth, ad infinitum. Graendal is virtually unique in that while people may be able to take issue with any of the little details, we have nothing to conclusively rule her out as the killer,  and she requires fewer major assumptions than any other candidate (we must simply assume that she had the opportunity to kill him).

 

On the sublect of intuitiveness, which I brought up earlier, it should probably be noted that RJ was not necessarily using the dictionary definition: in the way the term is usually used, no one candidate fits the bill. We must look at the evidence, see what we think is relevant to a particular candidate, and from that evidence it should be intutively obvious which character is the killer. Aside from the aformentioned plan, of which she was teh only extant member in a position to do the killing, we also know she requires fewer assumptions than anyone else, and that nothing specifically, explicitly and unequivocably rules her out. Therefore, she is the intutively obvious candidate, in a way that no-one else is.

 

i just thought of something. what if moridin had already been reborn or whatever soon after he died, and he still knew how to do the face of flames thing. and if he killed asmo with the TP so rand didnt notice that anyone had channeled. asmo might have recognized the face of ba'alazmon, hence his surprise.

It takes time to transmigrate someone, and even if he was, we have no evidence of it until 2 books later, but as for the "face of flames thing", unless you are suggesting that he puts on a quite unnecessary mask of mirrors (well, he is crazy) then yes, he does still know how to do it, and is still doing it - it is an advanced form of saa, so he just needs to carry on channeling TP to get it.

 

In conclusion, we have one and only one "intuitvely obvious" candidate in the sense of those words meaning what RJ presumably meant them to mean, as opposed to what those words are generally taken to mean, and therefore we have a killer: Graendal. Oh, and if anyone wants to take issue with this, go ahead, but bear in mind that the following are not obvious, the reasons for that are provided in brackets (this list is not exhaustive): Ishamael (dead), Moridin (not intro'd), SH (same), Osan'gar (same), Aran'gar (same), Cyndane (same), Sammael (eliminated by his own thoughts), Demandred (same), Semirhage (same), Rand (same, plus lack of opportunity), LTT (lack of opportunity), Davram Bashere (same), Aviendha (same), Mat (same), all other Chosen (dead or not intro'd, except Lanfear (see next entry) and Moghedien (a captive)), Lanfear (variety of reasons - lack of oppotunity, probable stilling, prisoner being the major ones), Moiraine (same as Lanfear). I think that covers all the major candidates. There is nothing similar, that I have ever seen, to rule out Graendal. She is the killer.

 

Oh, and Ealdur's right:

Yes' date=' he's dead. No, Moridin did not kidnap him. First of all, RJ clearly takes this series too seriously to use such a dastardly pun. Secondly, RJ told Yancy Davis at a post-TPOD signing in Northern Virginia that Asmodean is "road kill." "He also used the line, 'He's a cat that tried to cross the tracks and didn't quite make it.' Also, when I said, 'so he won't be back' he responded, 'No, he will not be coming back.'" [Yancy Davis'] Third, Aaron Bergman asked this question at a post-TPOD book-signing in New York: "In particular, I asked whether "death" was just a pun on "Moridin". He said "oh, god no" quite disgustedly." Thankfully, that's the end of that theory.

Death means he is dead, and is not a clue to the killers identity.