Being spun into the pattern and the Horn of valere?

[drovja]

The number of Heroes bound to the Horn and the number of heroic people are very different.  I think if every heroic act someone performed tied them to the Horn, there would be many many more than the number of Heroes tied to the Horn.  It takes a very special soul to be tied to the Pattern like the Heroes of the Horn.

[inkubate]

wait, here's a simply way to figure this out...

 

 

does anyone know if LTT was ever bound to the horn? if he was, than Rand will be, if not, than no...because LTT went up against the DO and won, so my previous post was blatantly wrong

[Majsju]

wait, here's a simply way to figure this out...

 

 

does anyone know if LTT was ever bound to the horn? if he was, than Rand will be, if not, than no...because LTT went up against the DO and won, so my previous post was blatantly wrong

 

The only Heroes ever mentioned by name are the ones we see mentioned when Mat blows the Horn in TGH. LTT is obviously not mentioned.

The only connection  between the Dragon and the Horn is that Rand finds it waiting for him at the Eye, and that it is probably a good idea to bring it to TG.

[Littel me]

I think for my part that LTT is bound too the horn. This beliv is fuonded on the basis of Mat's qustion TGH chaper 47 to Artur Hawking:

 

"Is this...? Is this all of you?"

 

And Hawking answer:

 

"...You could tel him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh"

(here only larst part of the answer stated).

 

It could maby be arguet that LTT is only bound to the patter to bee spun out to face the dark one and just hang aruond with the herons of the horn i TAR to passe time, but it seems me at bit far fetch.

 

There is a strong connection between LTT and the horn, we know from TGH chapter 47 that the Herons are bound not only to the horn but allsow to the banner of the dragon. Artur Hawking again:

 

"... We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

       

[Guest cwestervelt]

I agree with Luckers that Lews Therin is bound to the Horn.  That is the only way that Hawkwings comments make sense.  If Lews Therin is only spun out to face the Dark One, then the Heroes of the Horn have been fighting for the Dark One at the Tarmon Gaidon as often as they do for the Light.  And I just can't see the light pulling off a victory if they have to go up against all the heroes that are summoned too.  I just can't see Hawkwings comments meening anything other than that Lews Therin gets spun out in the same manner as any of the other heroes.

 

You also have Birgittes comments regarding Lews Therin always letting women get him in trouble.  There is just too much familiarity between Lews Therin and the other heroes.

[Majsju]

 

It could maby be arguet that LTT is only bound to the patter to bee spun out to face the dark one and just hang aruond with the herons of the horn i TAR to passe time, but it seems me at bit far fetch.

 

 

Far fetch? We know that LTT was not reborn again until Rand was born, 3000 yars later. Reborn with, unlike the Heroes, a clearly stated mission: face the DO.

Meanwhile, the Heroes are spun out on a more or less regular basis, spun out as the Wheels tools to correct things if the pattern threatens to drift too far from what it should, or to make events supposed to happen run a bit smoother than the last time.

 

There is a strong connection between LTT and the horn, we know from TGH chapter 47 that the Herons are bound not only to the horn but allsow to the banner of the dragon. Artur Hawking again:

 

"... We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

       

 

The events during Falme was the Wheels doing, to force Rand to declare himself the Dragon Reborn. At this point, the Wheel demands a Dragon Reborn, as also seen by the number of false Dragons running around. We know that the Wheel was responsible for displaying rands fight with Ishy all over the place, compared to that, holding back the Heroes until the banner is produced is quite a small intervention.

 

Since TGH is brought up, another thing is worth keeping in mind. The heroes adresses LTT as the man he was when he lead the forces of the Light against the Shadow. A strong, not crazy leader. If he had been a Hero, he would have spent the last 3000 years skulking around T'A'R, crazy as a loon. You'd think that Might have left a tiny impression on the Heroes...Not to mention Ishy. He was released a good many times during these 3000 years, and yet he never figured out that by hunting down LTT in T'A'R, he could have destroyed LTTs soul once and for all, pretty much handing the DO a walk-over victory on a silverplate?

 

I agree with Luckers that Lews Therin is bound to the Horn.  That is the only way that Hawkwings comments make sense.  If Lews Therin is only spun out to face the Dark One, then the Heroes of the Horn have been fighting for the Dark One at the Tarmon Gaidon as often as they do for the Light.  And I just can't see the light pulling off a victory if they have to go up against all the heroes that are summoned too.  I just can't see Hawkwings comments meening anything other than that Lews Therin gets spun out in the same manner as any of the other heroes.

 

When LTT fought in the war of power, the Horn was never used. Any Heroes he might have encountered was there in the flesh.

[Blackrose]

 

The events during Falme was the Wheels doing, to force Rand to declare himself the Dragon Reborn. At this point, the Wheel demands a Dragon Reborn, as also seen by the number of false Dragons running around. We know that the Wheel was responsible for displaying rands fight with Ishy all over the place, compared to that, holding back the Heroes until the banner is produced is quite a small intervention.

 

Since TGH is brought up, another thing is worth keeping in mind. The heroes adresses LTT as the man he was when he lead the forces of the Light against the Shadow. A strong, not crazy leader. If he had been a Hero, he would have spent the last 3000 years skulking around T'A'R, crazy as a loon. You'd think that Might have left a tiny impression on the Heroes...Not to mention Ishy. He was released a good many times during these 3000 years, and yet he never figured out that by hunting down LTT in T'A'R, he could have destroyed LTTs soul once and for all, pretty much handing the DO a walk-over victory on a silverplate?

 

well no-one knows about the heroes waiting in TAR until nynave finds out about birgette even the forsaken didnt know

[inkubate]

so LTT is a rare hero, a Trump card if you would...

[Mr Ares]

no need to be rude, not everyone spends every waking hour on this bord, it was just an idle thought, so not a big deal to be wrong but to be so rude about my wondering..... what would your mother think

All things considered, I don't think she'd care, child. You don't need to spend every waking moment on here, but it helps to have a vague idea what you're talking about. And this has been shot down so many times, the people who keep bringing it up have forfeited all right to a polite response, like those who keep bringing up Taimandred, or the various stupid Asmo theories. For most things, other than actual outright idiocy (all too common) I tend to be more polite.

 

Even before he gains his Finn memories, Mat had flashbacks while ill about him leading armies against Trollocs, so I think he definitly is a Hero.

But the Heroes, so far as we know, don't get any flashbacks of past lives. Birgitte is a special case, due to being forced out (those memories fade as the Pattern readjustes to her presence), as is Rand (LTT's personality and memories are a form of madness).

 

It could maby be arguet that LTT is only bound to the patter to bee spun out to face the dark one and just hang aruond with the herons of the horn i TAR to passe time, but it seems me at bit far fetch.

Far fetch? We know that LTT was not reborn again until Rand was born, 3000 yars later. Reborn with, unlike the Heroes, a clearly stated mission: face the DO.

Meanwhile, the Heroes are spun out on a more or less regular basis, spun out as the Wheels tools to correct things if the pattern threatens to drift too far from what it should, or to make events supposed to happen run a bit smoother than the last time.

Essentially, the Dragon is the same corrective mechanism of the Pattern, but with a more specialised purpose than the other Heroes, seemingly. They seem to know him, so for all we know, he is a Hero, and hangs around with the others between incarnations. It's hardly unreasonable speculation, surely?

 

Since TGH is brought up, another thing is worth keeping in mind. The heroes adresses LTT as the man he was when he lead the forces of the Light against the Shadow. A strong, not crazy leader. If he had been a Hero, he would have spent the last 3000 years skulking around T'A'R, crazy as a loon. You'd think that Might have left a tiny impression on the Heroes...Not to mention Ishy. He was released a good many times during these 3000 years, and yet he never figured out that by hunting down LTT in T'A'R, he could have destroyed LTTs soul once and for all, pretty much handing the DO a walk-over victory on a silverplate?

Would he really be crazy in T'A'R for the last 3,500 years? The madness is part of LTT' spersonality, not the Dragon's soul. If the Heroes addressed the soul by the most recent name it had been known by, it doesn't necessarily mean that that facet personality was dominant in T'A'R, as opposed to the (non-crazy) personality of the soul as a whole. and as for Ishy killing LTT, remember the precepts. These people are useful to the Wheel, so it's reasonable to assume it has some sort of protective mechanism, and we know Birgitte broke the rules when she spoke to the girls, and that was what made it possible for Moggy to attack her. And if he is protected, then Ishy couldn't get LTT could he?

 

And my earlier comment on Mat and Perrin being Heroes was not at all serious. Good to see we got some debate out of it though, it's easy to see why Young Gramps likes to stir things up occasionally.

[Vambram]

I don't know if this question has been addressed before, but I am guessing that it has. However, I am going to ask it anyways. :D

What thoughts and theories are there concerning how often the Horn of Valere has been used in the past before Mat used in the tGH. .. i.e., how often over the last 3000 years, or even perhaps stretching farther than that (maybe?) has the Heroes of the Wheel and Pattern been called back to life by the Horn of Valere?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

In the last 3000 years, before Mat sounded it at Falme, it was used:

 

0 times.

 

It was never used during the War of the Power (which was more than 3000 years before events at Falme anyway), and it was hidden in the Eye from the Eye's creation onward.  It was probably never blown at all during the Age of Legends because there was no need, and people didn't take it terribly seriously anyway.

 

To quote the author:

 

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

 

[Vambram]

Thank you, RAW. I should have known to go to wotmania and check out the faq's there. :D

[DonDew]

  Could it be possible that all(or most) of the Heroes were Ta'varen in one of thier earliest incarnations? It could possibly explain what made them heroes in the first place.

  It has been said that Hawkwing was one of the strongest in memory,but I can't remember if anything was ever mentioned about LTT being Ta'varen.

  Briggite is not Ta'varen now(possibly due to her circumstances)and never claims she was,but Perin,Mat,and Rand wouldn't have known they were if they hadn't been told.

  I do believe that Mat and Perin,and rand of course, will be tied to the Horn(after living long and happy lives)and will either be content in TAR living thier dreams, or just unaware, waiting for the Pattern to need them again.

[inkubate]

hes got a point, we dont hear much about former Ta'varen...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Meanwhile, the Heroes are spun out on a more or less regular basis...

 

Well, Maj, that is not entirely true. Recall Shivan the Hunter, and Calian the Chooser, the twin heroes who's births herald the end of the age.

 

They might, in fact, be Elayne's children.

[Lune]

Man, you may have just unleashed the ultimate spoiler without knowing >_> Is RJ banging his head on the keyboard now?

[Majsju]

Man, you may have just unleashed the ultimate spoiler without knowing >_> Is RJ banging his head on the keyboard now?

 

What spoiler might that be, that Elayne is knocked up?

She got pregnant in WH, those who have not read that far are browsing these forums on their own risk. Of course same goes with KOD now, since it's been out for so long.

[Lune]

No, that the twins Elayne is carrying may be Shivan the Hunter and Calian the Chooser. It's only speculation of course but it sounds very plausible now that it's been mentioned.

[Majsju]

And how is speculation that connects two known facts a spoiler?

 

Just messing with you;)

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think Loial mentions Lews Therin as having been Ta'veren in The Eye of the World.

 

There is nothing that would require the Heroes to be Ta'veren, and nothing that would say they can't.  Ta'veren can be anyone the Pattern chooses.  Odds might favor a reincarnated Hero a little but we don't really know.  It wouldn't be surprising as that would definitely give them an edge.  They don't have to be Ta'veren to get on the short list though.  Wasn't it Hurin that got the comment from Hawkwing about new Heroes being added occasionally?

[Luckers]

Indeed, the only known ta'veren we are aware of are Lews Therin, Mabriem en Shareed (An Aes sedai and a Queen of Aramaelle (sp?) who formed the compact of the Ten Nations). Plus our three wonder kids. None of the other heroes are mentioned as possible ta'veren, and they've been around enough that you would think it would come up.

 

Besides, RJ stated that none of the female characters were ta'veren shortly after tPoD was released--Birgitte was a female character by that stage.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You missed Artur Hawkwing.

[Luckers]

You LIE!

 

 

By which i mean... oops.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Wasn't it Hurin that got the comment from Hawkwing about new Heroes being added occasionally?

 

Yes, it was.

[Asnos]

In book 3 (TDR) perrin has a dream where hes in an inn and who he see's as the dark one (ishy). during this dream he says that his axe is the only real thing there. and when he touches it he remembers using it before. hears the quote:

 

He touched the half-moon blade. a voice, his own, said tha he would take it over any weapon, had carried it a thousand times in a hundred battles.