Olver - Little Bit Creepy

[trakand01]

This may be just me, and on my current re-read of the books he hasnt appeared yet so there may be something that changes my mind, but does anyone else find Olver slightly... creepy? He's so into the women, he's taking after Mat big time, but to my memory he's about what... 10?

 

I cant remember where he came from (how he came to be with Mat) can someone remind me? Do we think he has a purpose?

 

 

[Majsju]

Mat found him in a village in Cairhien where the Band were camped, and decided to bring him along.

 

He does have a purpose. When asked if Olver was Cain, RJ said after the obvious explanation why Olver could not possibly be Cain that he did have another part to play.

[BrainFireBob]

Olver taught Mat responsibility.

 

Olver watched a Shaido shove a spear in his father's belly, saw his siblings killed or carried off, and cared for and then buried his mother "in a place with some flowers." He then took care of himself until ending a refugee in Maerone.

 

All before the age of 10. There's a reason you're finding him creepy. Kid's a survivor. It's made him casual about gore, violence and pain, and more determined to live the rest of the time.

[Anajon]

I agree to the teaching Mat responsibility and I think I will have to "play" foxes and snakes at the tower of Gini :-)

[Siemba]

The fact he is so into women seems a bit...well, yeah, creepy considering his age but that has to be due to the people he is around rather than him being natrually a little pervert (though 10 year old boys are not usually totally ignorant of that sort of thing). I sort of like Olver as a character. He manages to actually have a personality; most kids in books end up as twee, overly sweet innocent little twerps. Olvers ugly, has a gory past, is easily influenced and contrasts between life experience some adults owuldnt even have to a simple childishness. He likes books, he likes racing, he likes Snakes and Foxes and he likes attention. I reckon as a character hes easier to appreciate than some of the main characters ;D

[Vemynal]

<3 Oliver, I think he's among my favorites in the series XD

 

And I wonder whether RJ maybe meant something more specific then responsibility, which he definantly accomplished.

[trakand01]

Well that's good enough for me!! I'd forgotten his history and yes you are right if that's the case - he's a survivor. I guess really he's done a lot of things that Mat / Rand / Perrin have, but all by 10 years before them.

 

Cheers for that!

[Guest cwestervelt]

<3 Oliver, I think he's among my favorites in the series XD

 

And I wonder whether RJ maybe meant something more specific then responsibility, which he definantly accomplished.

 

Like reminding Mat of what it takes to win at Snakes and Foxes?  From the beginning, Mat drew similarities between snakes and foxes to the Ael'finn and Eel'finn, but never really connected them with a kids game.

[Breaker of Light]

i totally forgot about that. now that game makes sense. i do think he's creepy though...and is spending to much time with almost-pervert-men

[Pe Ell]

Like reminding Mat of what it takes to win at Snakes and Foxes?  From the beginning, Mat drew similarities between snakes and foxes to the Ael'finn and Eel'finn, but never really connected them with a kids game.

 

To win at Snakes and Foxes you have to cheat.  Olver doesn't believe so though.  So he hasn't reminded Mat of what it takes to win, he's teaching him that you do have to cheat to win.

 

How do you cheat?  Well when they enter the Tower of Ghenji they would have to find some way to smuggle in Iron, Music, and Fire.  I found this on some site.  I can't remember what the source of Iron was, but the Music was Thom's bard's voice and the Fire was Mat's strikers.  Maybe Olver exists to remind Mat that he will eventually have to cheat to rescue Moiraine.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Actually, Olver, by simply playing the game with Mat, has reminded Mat how to win.  Olver didn't need to cheat himself to do so.  Mat's thoughts are on how Olver is too young to realize the only way to win the game is to cheat.  Mat wouldn't even be thinking about that if it weren't for Olver.

[Rhuaria]

I have a slightly interesting theory on Oliver I'd like to share.

 

I believe that Oliver is the person Brigitte is supposed to fall in love with and marry every turning of the wheel.

 

If I recall Brigitte mentions that "He" (can't remember the guys name)that there is always a large age gap between them and he is always very ugly, two things that Oliver has going for him.

 

Its been awhile since I've re-read some of the books so I may of mixed things up . . . but I'm interested in anyones thoughts on this.

[bcxanth]

That "He" you are referring to is Gaidal Cane, who we see her with many times before she's ripped out, and who we know it's impossible for Olver to be.  The reason it's impossible is because Olver is already 10 years old when he is introduced, yet Gaidal was there at the battle of Falme, and afterward we see him in T'A'R with Birgette for a while before he's spun out.  So wherever Gaidal is he's an infant and nowhere near old enough to be Olver.

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, that's why we should have figured out he can't be Cain.

 

We *know* he's not Cain because Jordan said so.

[Siemba]

Are we ever going to actually meet Cain? Wouldnt it take another, like, 18 years in WOT story time for Brigitte to fall in love with Cain in the story? Unless they both get killed early or something...though how that would help, I have no idea

[Guest cwestervelt]

About the only way we would meet Cain is in an extended epilogue.  We would have no way to recognise what ever 1 to 2 year old he is otherwise.

[Destrus]

RJ has said that Olver is not Cain, and that's obvious because of (as was pointed out) the fact that he was still in T'A'R after Olver was born.

 

I know that Birgitte has affection for Olver because he reminds her of Gaidal...could it be possible that she would end up Olver because Gaidal isn't in the picture this time around?  Sure....I guess.

[Guest cwestervelt]

If she would be willing to get involved with someone as much younger than herself as Olver, she would probably wait a few more years for Gaidal.  Why settle for Olver when she could have the real thing in only a few more years?

[Destrus]

If she would be willing to get involved with someone as much younger than herself as Olver, she would probably wait a few more years for Gaidal.  Why settle for Olver when she could have the real thing in only a few more years?

 

True enough, but Birgitte isn't bonded to the Horn of Valere anymore...so wouldn't she possibly risk dying of old age before she finds Gaidal again?  I don't think she'll keep on keeping on after this time...she's mortal again for the first time in a long time.  That could possibly push her towards Olver.  Just saying.....

[bcxanth]

True enough, but Birgitte isn't bonded to the Horn of Valere anymore...so wouldn't she possibly risk dying of old age before she finds Gaidal again?  I don't think she'll keep on keeping on after this time...she's mortal again for the first time in a long time.  That could possibly push her towards Olver.  Just saying.....

 

We don't actually know that she's no longer bound. We simply know that she was ripped out of T'A'R.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, we're pretty sure that she either never came unbound, or has since been re-bound.  Min's viewings of her said:

 

Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

WH ch 12

 

The "ugly man" who in some viewings was older, and some viewings younger than Birgitte is Gaidal Cain.  Since Min sees only the future, that means that Birgitte will have some adventures with Gaidal in this life (when she is the older one) and in a large number of lives to come (in which she is younger, which is the normal way the Pattern spins them out, ).

 

So, Birgitte is bound to the Wheel.  I personally think she was never actually un-bound, but whether she was or not, she has since been re-bound to the Wheel.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You're right.  When you mentioned that vision it reminded me of another comment that Brigitte mentioned.  When she would be waiting her time in Tel'aran'rhiod, she could always tell it was getting close because Gaidal would disappear.  In fact, she was expecting to be spun out soon because he was no longer around.

[jaldy]

O'kay, It's been determined that Olver is not Cain. Primarily, because someone asked MJ. One thing that seems to have escaped everyone who has posted to this thread is this: in TAR time flows differently. The exact amount of time between Cain's being spun out and Brigette"s being torn out

is unknown. therefore cain could already be 20,30 even 50 years old.

a week or two in TAR could very easily be alot longer in real time.

[BrainFireBob]

Impossible.

 

Time only moves forward in tel'aran'rhiod. For Gaidal to be more than a pregnancy or an infact, the characters would have been travelling *back in time* when they met him in tel'aran'rhiod. Time flows at a different rate, which does not mean it ever flows backwards. What it means is that a minute in tel'aran'rhiod- or what's perceived as a minute- will be some span of time in the real world but will not necessarily be a minute.

 

What they're describing is relativistic time measurements, not time being different. If you stay two minutes in tel'aran'rhiod, the first minute may correspond to a minute in the real world, and the second to an hour. Time lengths are inconstant translated from one system to another.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Correct.  We get a baseline when either Nynaeve, Elayne or Perrin is talking to Birgitte.  I can't remember which one it was.  Gaidal is standing off to the side to after expressing his displeasure with Birgitte violating the strictures about contacting people who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod.  The earliest waking world point at which Gaidal could have been spun out is some where after that sighting of him.  Less than 2 years as far as I can figure.