Verin and her 70 year project

[CUBAREY]

To Cloglord:

 

I apologize for the Bloghead comment, it was a bad attempt at humor which I incorrectly believed I had changed when I saved the reply.  As you can see by the numerous typos and grammatical mistakes in the quoted passage I did not proofread  it or run it through the spell checker before sending it. That being said, the term was infantile and I do apologize.

 

That being said, your statement referring to Raw as a Punk was also offensive. Your later remark that "I pointed out that he has a responsibility not to be a punk, not that he always is one" is in-artful as the clear implication is that you believe he has been a punk in this thread.

 

As to my remark about conspiracy enthusiasts I will only say that they like you prefer complicated explanations when others accept the validity of simpler truths.  The main difference is that you do it because you like "imaginative" solutions while they cannot accept that sometimes s**t happens.

 

 

Now as to my reasons for disagreeing with your (and Jon's) theories, the answer is that I see Morraine's statement as allowing Verin to make her own statement. I then reason that RJ would not have had Morraine make the statement if he was going to explain Verin's statement by way of disclosing that she was a Darkfriend, had compelled Morraine, etc., as the statement makes compelling unnecessary and because if Verin was a Darkfriend she took an awful big chance by saying Morraine sent her when she could of as easily made up another explanation.

 

Lastly, some of the theories, like the agent of the pattern, are strictly speaking possible but so complicated as to be highly unlikely to be what RJ intended. I come to that belief from the fact that if they were truly what RJ intended then he would have given us many more clues of their validity by the 11th book in the series. Your theories I will grant are imaginative but not the theories that RJ gave us clues for.  I therefore assert that such theories more appropriately belong in a thread dealing with alternative ways in which RJ could have taken the series and not in one dealing with what we really believe (based on the evidence provided by RJ) happened.  I am neither being disrespectful or trying to stifle discussion  or imagination I simply would like to know what people actually believe was taking place in the books based on the actual books (and auxiliary documents like the text of RJ's published comments).  I would also participate in any threads on alternative theories that you or others would care to start as I have definite ideas on how the books could have gone (but unfortunately did not).

 

This may sound really stupid but where did Verin say she was involved in a 70 year project? I know she said  her last major mistake was 70 years ago but that's not the same thing.  Also how long ago did she hurt her arm?  Third, is it just me or is her arm not being completely healed only one of three examples given in the books of healing not completely working (the others of course being the various unsuccessful attempts to totally heal the wound in Rand's side and the pre-Flynn attempts to deal severing)?

[Gentled Ben]

It is possible that offscreen Verin encountered Moiraine and took from that encounter that Moiraine needed someone trustworthy to follow the boys and look after them if she could not.

It's possible, but not necessary; Verin was present in TGH when Moiraine and Siuan discussed how Rand would unfortunately be left unattended.

Now this covers a few varioations of the Verin is not lying hypothesis, just in different ways.

 

My time messenger theory requires such a meeting.

 

Robert's "simplicity is best" approach requires such an exchange.

No, only your theory requires it; RAW's can be supported by the books, as I pointed out above.

 

Then again why is one of the Brown Ajah Delving anyone? Sure, she can Heal, but generally a Yellow is more interested in basically doing a check-up on someone's health.

Anaiya, a Blue, is noted as an accomplished Healer, and when Mat is separated from the dagger and Healed,there are no Yellows mentioned as being present at all. It is something that struck me as odd during my re-read. At any rate, in one of Verin's POVs, she reflects that she's one of the best Delvers alive; that should be reason enough for her to use the Talent.

 

 

Doesn't matter what her initial reason is to channel around that person, they shouldn't be able to remember why exactly she needed to channel in the first place.

My point is that Moiraine isn't likely to let Verin channel at her for any reason.

 

She just did, there was a credible reason for her to do so and there you go.

Oh, well then, there we have it. How silly of me to question it. 

 

Any solve for whatever may be behind Verin's behavior would probably be offscreen anyway, wouldn't it? I mean, if it were onscreen, we would know the answer, yes?

Certainly, but that doesn't excuse us from being realistic. Otherwise, we're really just saying, "Hey, let's pretend that somehow, a bunch of things happened off-screen for any number of credible reasons, and all of that led up to this amazing, improbable theory of mine.! Whaddya say? Let's discuss it!"  :) Which is fine, but this started as a serious thread and should probably remain as one. Wild supposition could be contained in a different thread or even forum, such as Cloglord suggested, relating to a bunch of "What if RJ had written the story differently? Then, we could say that..."

 

 

Robert's ideas of simplicity are a bit piecemeal in my estimation, just kind of scatter-shot. This goes with that, and that goes with this with no real centralized theory as to what could explain Verin's mysterious nature. That's honestly what I think of his theory. He could well be correct, but it just doesn't present a cohesive overall thought about the mystery of Verin.

Robert's ideas of simplicity relating to the inconsistency of what Verin told Ingtar compared with what Moiraine told Rand are not designed to "explain Verin's mysterious nature;" they are designed to explain the discrepancy, which they do. If you can produce an alternate solution that explains both, then great; I'm all ears--it's just that so far, you haven't.  :-\

[Caramoore]

All of that makes sense to me Gentled Ben, I agree with every word. But what do I know, I agreed with Robert (which I don't do often :o) when he said his theory. lol

[cloglord]

To Cloglord:

 

I apologize for the Bloghead comment,..., the term was infantile and I do apologize.

 

Apology accepted. I had assumed better of you, and have been gladly proved correct :)

 

That being said, your statement referring to Raw as a Punk was also offensive. Your later remark that "I pointed out that he has a responsibility not to be a punk, not that he always is one" is in-artful as the clear implication is that you believe he has been a punk in this thread.

 

Leaving aside the fact that you just as clearly implied that I was an insane person in one your earlier post... I do not deny that was the implication, and if RAW has a problem with that, I would suggest it is a problem of conscience, and only hurtful if true.

 

I would follow your lead and apologize here, but I still don't feel that anything that I said was offensive, or a failed attempt at artful dodging.  I wrote what I meant, which I believe is esentially the point that you are trying to get across to me.  That we all have a responsibility to not be @ssholes.  If you re-read that post I think that you'll find that I included RAW as an "...important part of the Dragonmount brainpool," and that I have often, throughout this thread and elsewhere, given him credit where it is due.  I have laid out my problems with RAW's behavior, here and elsewhere,and will continue to lay them out to him when I feel that he is exhibiting bad behavior.  I have done it to other posters, in fact I did it in my last post to Jonn.  It might seem specifically aimed at RAW, but that is only due to the high standard that he set for himself when I first encountered him her on these threads, and because of the volume of his posts.  In the past I have disagreed as often and vehemously with Luckers. 

 

Name calling is not appropriate, and I don't believe that is what I have done here.  I refuse to refrain from pointing out bad behavior, simply because the perpetrator is widely regarded.  With that in mind, I freely admit that this discussion has inapropriately hijacked this thread, and would like to apologize again, as I did earlier to Trakand, for my complicity in this.

 

[Gentled Ben]

I refuse to refrain from pointing out bad behavior, simply because the perpetrator is widely regarded.

Hehe...Cloglord is playing Cadsuane to RAW's Rand.  :P

[cloglord]

Quote

It is possible that offscreen Verin encountered Moiraine and took from that encounter that Moiraine needed someone trustworthy to follow the boys and look after them if she could not.

It's possible, but not necessary; Verin was present in TGH when Moiraine and Siuan discussed how Rand would unfortunately be left unattended.

 

I don't believe that this is correct.  Unfortunately I don't have my books with me right at the moment, but if memory serves, Moraine and Siuan discussed this earlier, and after the theft of the Horn and the scrawling of the dark prophecy, Verin interjects herself into the conversation by correctly assuming that one of the 3 boys is the Dragon Reborn.  I'm not 100% put am relatively sure that no "on screen" conversation, among the three aes sedai, about giving the boys their space ever took place.

 

No, only your theory requires it; RAW's can be supported by the books, as I pointed out above.

 

I think that the point trying to be made is that Verin could not have truthfully said anything about Moraine sending her unless Moraine and Verin had had some sort of interaction.  Now that is not to say that their interactions when Moraine was an accepted wouldn't count...but the point is, if they had never met, then the statement would categorically be false.

 

My point is that Moiraine isn't likely to let Verin channel at her for any reason.

 

Why not?  She had been severely wounded by a forsaken wielding massive amounts of Saidin and had been outside the assistance of OP healing for a couple of weeks.  Why not ask a trusted sister, a sister regarded as an excellent delver, to check her out? Simple assertions that Moraine is paranoid are not sufficient to answer this question as far as I'm concerned.

 

Robert's ideas of simplicity relating to the inconsistency of what Verin told Ingtar compared with what Moiraine told Rand are not designed to "explain Verin's mysterious nature;" they are designed to explain the discrepancy, which they do. If you can produce an alternate solution that explains both, then great; I'm all ears--it's just that so far, you haven't.

 

Unfortunately this is a circular argument.  Verin is weird, so the explaination of her lie can't be simple, If the explaination of her lie is so simple, why is she so wierd?  I happen to think that there is more to this lie than the simple explaination, because it was obviously, and confirmed by RJ as such, intentional.  Now the explaination could be a simple one in a meta-simplistic way.  RJ wanted to give us a red herring to make us doubt Verin, or it could be an intentional clue from RJ that Verin is odd.  In either case it is not cut and dry, and while the explaination can be simple, the answer, (the true answer that we might never know at this point,) is not.  The simple answer would have been for RJ to have told us.  Sadly, we must figure it out for ourselves, and it is my hope that sufficient clues were left in AMoL for the simple and obvious answer to be determined.

 

This may sound really stupid but where did Verin say she was involved in a 70 year project? I know she said  her last major mistake was 70 years ago but that's not the same thing.  Also how long ago did she hurt her arm?  Third, is it just me or is her arm not being completely healed only one of three examples given in the books of healing not completely working (the others of course being the various unsuccessful attempts to totally heal the wound in Rand's side and the pre-Flynn attempts to deal severing)?

 

Both aspects have been mentioned.  Her last mistake was 70 years ago, and she has referred to 70 years of planning in her POV's.  Apparently she hurt her arm around the time that she uncovered Corianin's notes(or at the very least sometime after that discovery), however, we have no definative indicator of when that was.  In answer to your 3rd question, I believe that it is an example of incomplete healing, and since we know from the Salidar/TAR/nightmare scene, injuries obtained in TAR can be healed completely, this scar of Verin's does qualify as a genuine abnormality.

 

[cloglord]

Your theories I will grant are imaginative but not the theories that RJ gave us clues for.  I therefore assert that such theories more appropriately belong in a thread dealing with alternative ways in which RJ could have taken the series and not in one dealing with what we really believe (based on the evidence provided by RJ) happened.  I am neither being disrespectful or trying to stifle discussion  or imagination I simply would like to know what people actually believe was taking place in the books based on the actual books (and auxiliary documents like the text of RJ's published comments).  I would also participate in any threads on alternative theories that you or others would care to start as I have definite ideas on how the books could have gone (but unfortunately did not).

 

I left this for last, but will try my best to deal with it cogently.

 

I was completely blindsighted by Mattin Stepaneos' appearance in the WT.  I assumed from the evidence presented, that he had been killed by Sammael, and that he was finished as far as the story was concerned.  However, when I re-read the series after KoD's I found there were a number of clues that indicated that he was kidnapped by Elaida.

 

Now, that is not to say, that I am infalliable, and that no one else caught what I missed, it is to say, that had the idea been brought up and discussed here, then those clues would probably have surfaced.  The idea would have been raised, and the fact of Stepaneos's reapearance would not have been as big a suprise to me, and I assume to others.  I am not interested in discussing questions without answers, (IE the asmodean debate,) nor am I interested in comming up with answers to questions that no one has asked.  I want to raise alternate answers to questions and run them through the gauntlet that these forums represent.  I think that assuming that certain things are off limits for discussion because of the apparent lack of clues that RJ gave us, is failing to appreciate the depth of the writing that we have.  Every re-read turns up clues, that had we interpreted them correctly the first time, would have clued us in on what was/is going to happen. 

 

I hope that is a clear enough answer. 

[CUBAREY]

QUOTE:

 

I think that the point trying to be made is that Verin could not have truthfully said anything about Moraine sending her unless Moraine and Verin had had some sort of interaction.

 

In Chapter 8 of The Great Hunt immediately after Rand leaves the Audience with the Amyrlin a discussion ensues among the Amyrlin, Moraine and Verin. The Amyrlin begins by observing that she cannot make herself like what they had just done to Rand but that it was neccesary and then asks whether it worked. Moraine shakes her head and says I do not know but it was necessary. Verin agrees that it was necessary, then comments that Rand was as stubborn as Moraine had said and much stronger then I expected.  Verin the goes on to say

 

"We may have to gentle him after all before..." Her eyes widened. "But we cannot, can we? The Prophecies. The Light forgive us for what we are loosing on the world."

"The Prophecies," Moraine said, nodding. "Afterwards, we will do as we must. As we do now."

 

I submit that Verin could have easily taken this conversation, especially Moraine's "we will do as we must. As we do now." as the pretext for stating to Ingtar that Moraine had sent her. Verin believed that someone had to keep an eye on Rand, she might even of believed that Moraine might have approved or at least seen the neccesity of it. Verin was thus following Moraine's admonition that they wopuld have to do what had to be done. 

 

Thus, Verin does not need to compel Moraine for a reason to truthfully say that Moraine had sent her since Moraine's quoted statement gave her the reason.

[BrainFireBob]

YOU, want to talk to me about FAIR? pff

 

You ghouls...obscene display of gang warfare on that other thread...self-congratulation and egotistical masturbation...worthless mess...his recent ascension to chief ***hole...Don't start none, won't be none...before I deal with you guys in a manner that resembles anything other than disdain. You guys are on my **** list, is what that translates to if it's too complicated for you. Is that plain enough? Or am I misrepresenting myself?...I'm certainly no saint.

 

Jonn, I like you, I agree with you in regards to RAW and his oversimplification for the sake of being right.  But I think you just proved BFB's point for him.  Sorry bud, I'm not following you down this road.

 

Yep. Jonn takes disagreement personally- and is prone to displays of temper over it, one has noticed. Anyone is free to read the thread in question, though. It's the Asmodean thread.

 

On topic, Verin using her Compulsion weave isn't necessary for the story (it doesn't add nor is it the only possible explanation), nor is it the most likely option. Consequently, I tend to be with RaW on the issue, although he was rather brusque in his dismissal, I rather think that may have been a history issue.

[Tyrell]

Yeah, the lie does seem to be easily explainable away by classic Aes Sedai wordplay. Take fr'instance in New Spring when Tamra tells Moiraine to get the ink stain out of her dress with the power; what she actually says is a reminder that using the power to do chores is forbidden - what she actually means to do is to tell Moiraine to do just that. Daes'dae'mar and all that.

 

Moiraine could have said to Verin "You can't send you after Rand, we agreed to give him a chance to run free etc." or something like that, putting the emphasis on the right words so that Verin would know that she actually wanted her to go after Rand, but wanted to keep the ability to say "I didn't send Verin".

 

[Gentled Ben]

Quote

It is possible that offscreen Verin encountered Moiraine and took from that encounter that Moiraine needed someone trustworthy to follow the boys and look after them if she could not.

It's possible, but not necessary; Verin was present in TGH when Moiraine and Siuan discussed how Rand would unfortunately be left unattended.

 

I don't believe that this is correct.  Unfortunately I don't have my books with me right at the moment, but if memory serves, Moraine and Siuan discussed this earlier, and after the theft of the Horn and the scrawling of the dark prophecy, Verin interjects herself into the conversation by correctly assuming that one of the 3 boys is the Dragon Reborn.  I'm not 100% put am relatively sure that no "on screen" conversation, among the three aes sedai, about giving the boys their space ever took place.

 

No, only your theory requires it; RAW's can be supported by the books, as I pointed out above.

 

I think that the point trying to be made is that Verin could not have truthfully said anything about Moraine sending her unless Moraine and Verin had had some sort of interaction.  Now that is not to say that their interactions when Moraine was an accepted wouldn't count...but the point is, if they had never met, then the statement would categorically be false.

 

My point is that Moiraine isn't likely to let Verin channel at her for any reason.

 

Why not?  She had been severely wounded by a forsaken wielding massive amounts of Saidin and had been outside the assistance of OP healing for a couple of weeks.  Why not ask a trusted sister, a sister regarded as an excellent delver, to check her out? Simple assertions that Moraine is paranoid are not sufficient to answer this question as far as I'm concerned.

 

Robert's ideas of simplicity relating to the inconsistency of what Verin told Ingtar compared with what Moiraine told Rand are not designed to "explain Verin's mysterious nature;" they are designed to explain the discrepancy, which they do. If you can produce an alternate solution that explains both, then great; I'm all ears--it's just that so far, you haven't.

 

Unfortunately this is a circular argument.  Verin is weird, so the explaination of her lie can't be simple, If the explaination of her lie is so simple, why is she so wierd?  I happen to think that there is more to this lie than the simple explaination, because it was obviously, and confirmed by RJ as such, intentional.  Now the explaination could be a simple one in a meta-simplistic way.  RJ wanted to give us a red herring to make us doubt Verin, or it could be an intentional clue from RJ that Verin is odd.  In either case it is not cut and dry, and while the explaination can be simple, the answer, (the true answer that we might never know at this point,) is not.  The simple answer would have been for RJ to have told us.  Sadly, we must figure it out for ourselves, and it is my hope that sufficient clues were left in AMoL for the simple and obvious answer to be determined.

 

This may sound really stupid but where did Verin say she was involved in a 70 year project? I know she said  her last major mistake was 70 years ago but that's not the same thing.  Also how long ago did she hurt her arm?  Third, is it just me or is her arm not being completely healed only one of three examples given in the books of healing not completely working (the others of course being the various unsuccessful attempts to totally heal the wound in Rand's side and the pre-Flynn attempts to deal severing)?

 

Both aspects have been mentioned.  Her last mistake was 70 years ago, and she has referred to 70 years of planning in her POV's.  Apparently she hurt her arm around the time that she uncovered Corianin's notes(or at the very least sometime after that discovery), however, we have no definative indicator of when that was.  In answer to your 3rd question, I believe that it is an example of incomplete healing, and since we know from the Salidar/TAR/nightmare scene, injuries obtained in TAR can be healed completely, this scar of Verin's does qualify as a genuine abnormality.

 

 

Yeah, CUBAREY found the part I was referring to. It was when Rand met with the Amyrlin, and Verin and Moiraine were there too. There was a discussion following the meeting in which Verin insinuated herself into the circle of Aes Sedai who knew Rand as the Dragon Reborn. Well, the whole circle of two, I guess--Siuan and Moiraine. Verin can see that Moiraine is mildly distressed about not being able to babysit him, and that, I assume, is the conversation RAW referred to in his answer to my question in another post, which he quoted here for Jonn. It is the meeting I just referred to that I had in mind in my post, at any rate.

 

I had forgotten about her duel with Aginor; that would certainly qualify as a reason to allow Verin to channel at her. However, if Verin used Compulsion on her, why have we still not been made privy to it? There was a wonderful opportunity for Verin to reflect upon it, had it occurred, while she was Compelling the other sisters later on. Using Complulsion on Moiraine, a major character, is something I would expect us to "see." My expectations aren't always met though, and I understand that. I could be wrong.  :)

 

As for the circular argument, I don't see it as such. I don't see why everything about a complex or "weird" person has to be convoluted and complicated. That just makes no sense to me at all.

Verin is weird, so the explaination of her lie can't be simple, If the explaination of her lie is so simple, why is she so wierd?

I don't grasp that logic, I guess. I think you're wrong; I think lots of things about Verin, regardless how weird she is or might be, can be simple, including the lie. The rest of your statement makes more sense to me, but it can stand independent of your other statement, the one I just quoted.

[Jonn]

OK, to protect myself from simply being reactionary, as I have a bad habit of doing, I've read the last page and given myself a chance to communicate without a big flair of temper.

 

I do have a temper. It's who I am. If you don't like that. I am sorry, that's just something you will have to dislike about me. It ain't going away, and trust me I have explored my own personality enough to know that it just doesn't work to ignore my temper. It's part of who I am and it fuels my creativity.

 

Now apart from that psycho-analysis. Bob comes in and as astute as ever deduces that my tone has something to do with the Asmodean thread.

 

I never claimed otherwise. In fact it has a lot to do with it, and he's no genius in recognizing that. At the least he had the nerve to acknowledge it while RobertAlex takes "the high road" and pretends that his condescension wouldn't draw me out.

 

Look. I said it before, I'll say it again. If you leave that thread where it is, I'll be civil and I'll probably be "nice" to you. If you tread upon it and continue to act like you can interact with me negatively without repercussions, you are very mistaken. Don't start none, won't be none.

 

Now cloglord, I don't feel negatively about you one way or another, but please forgive me when I say this. I don't need anyone's approval, affirmation or permission to say what's from the heart. I don't play that game.

 

Anyone who thinks they can stick needles into me freely can get this notice. I don't play.

 

So just so you don't get confused. No, I am not a troll. I never have been. I don't argue for the sake of argument. If you get on my bad side though, you better make peace with your actions because I don't forgive easily. When I do though, it is genuine.

 

If you just want to skip it all, all you have to do is this. Don't **** with me.

 

Don't talk to me if you don't have to. Don't respond to my posts as you did before, because that's probably the cause of the argument. If you look at my participation in this topic, you'll see that I responded to it as I normally do. I didn't single Robert out or attck his views, or even criticize his ideas.

 

Robert went out of his way and made it a point. A POINT. To use my name and call attention to his ideas as being better than mine. It's not that subtle. This is precisely the tone he displayed in the Asmodean thread. I resent it to this day.

 

Just history that some of you may not know. The Asmodean thread used to be fun and people used to throw around ideas, a variety of ideas, just for the fun of it. It sometimes would get heated, but that would usually die down and people would move on. Lately though, due in great part to the influence of RobertAlex, that thread just turned into him and about half a dozen other people shooting people down, and me coming on there once in a while and then all of them ganging up on me with unsheathed insults. My temper has its role in the issue, true enough, but it just comes to the point when someone has to make peace. I tried to tone down a bit after James Rigney passed away, but not a week passed before I was being targeted and insulted again. Shows that some people have no sensitivity about how other people might feel. I am very aware of the feelings of others and if you're genuinely hurt by something I am doing, I will make amends if I am spoken to like a human being. With respect. I have less forgiveness for people who only regard their own self-interests.

 

Bob is one of those people who obviously loves to dump fuel onto a fire so, that I won't forgive either.

 

So gentlemen, if we have history of being short with one another follow the old rule; If you  don't have anything positive to add in regards to me, don't bother saying it. I'm not here to make you feel better about yourself at my expense.

[Jonn]

OK, now that that's out of the way.

 

I fail to see why so many people are ohhhh sooo eager to make the most mundane, simplified answer to a question, the primary path to the truth.

 

In this series..?

 

Who here has read this series and not been surprised once? Not even once.

 

I expect that the majority of us have been surprised by plot twists and events in the series.

 

If you haven't been surprised or intrigued by the way some of the story has played out, I can't see why you're even reading the series. If you know what's happening before it's happened, can say that nothing that has happened has varied from your own initial thoughts of the series, how do you find enjoyment in that?

 

Besides, so many fantastical elements and intricate plot movements have occurred that I find it hard to believe that there is a large portion of the audience out there that believes that every last detail of this story is going to play out in the simplest manner they can think of.

 

What I LOVE about these books is that in every chapter, literally every chapter, something happens that changes the dynamic. A lie can become truth, a truth can turn out to be a lie.

 

After reading The Great Hunt, who would have believed that somewhere down the line Perrin would ally himself with the Seanchan to kill Aiel?

 

Another example that I like to use. Semirhage. For years we heard her name mentioned and could only guess what she was like, what she was up to. For a long time, most of us were sure that Lanfear had sent those trollocs to the Stone to aid Rand. No one could ever know that Semirhage was actually the one. For years we speculated as to how marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons would affect Mat. Who would guess that Semirhage would be the vessel that puts her on the Crystal Throne and make Mat the crowned Prince of Ravens to the Seanchan Empire? Arangar had been skulking around the rebel Aes Sedai, killing them. We wondered how would she be caught, how would Egwene figure it out? It turned out that Romanda figured it out because she remembered a connection between sisters who were friends of Cabrianna Macandes, who had disappeared and was tortured and killed by...Semirhage.

 

The simplest answer is not only NOT always the correct answer in these books. It's probably one of the least likely answers you'll find in the Wheel of Time.

 

What is the point in exhausting every simple angle when you're reading one of the most COMPLEX series ever to reach print?

 

cloglord mentioned the surprise he felt when Mattin Stepaneos turned up. I wasn't that surprised. I wasn't expecting it truly, but it's a minor surprise compared to the dozens of other surprises this series has offered up.

 

I just don't believe that "simple is better" is the correct approach for this series. It doesn't match the dramatic tone of these novels. I am glad for it.

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

To quote Jonn "RJ's world will live on because of new ideas, energy of the mind and the willingness to venture into unknown territory."

 

Now, what has everyone (yes EVERYONE) done in this thread that could be done better???

 

Consider everyone's opinion, if you think he's wrong, that's great: PROVE IT. Where does it say in the book "oh yeah, by the way, Verin's explanation is actually extremely simple, no complications here..."

 

Now unless someone can find that, don't say stuff like "that's not possible, it's too complicated," or "I don't believe it, my theory is better because it's simpler." What everyone has said if very possible...

 

 

Yes, I know that Jonn mentions "There are several ways to access the hidden worlds beyond regular,linear time." and gives examples.  Most of those are examples Verin had no access to (all the entrances to 'finn-land, and the Rings of Rhuidean), some wouldn't be useful at all (the test for becoming Aes Sedai) and some would almost certainly be as useless (the Rings in the Tower test for becoming Accepted, which only showed marginally real possibilities because Egwene brought a Dreaming ter'angreal into the same room ... Nynaeve's experiences were clearly not real possibilities) and the Prophecies are Foretellings ... and if the source is someone else's Dreaming, well, that brings us right back to Corianin's notes, doesn't it?  We know that there is something of value in what we haven't seen, otherwise she wouldn't have contemplated burning them, or handing them to Egwene.

 

We know that Verin hadn't actually been transported by Portal Stone ... ever ... before Rand took her to Falme ... so that couldn't have been the source of her justification, or her information.

 

As we've seen, everyone can be wrong, and I'll say something that MAY prove RAW wrong here...

 

I believe it was written in the book, when Egwene was going through the ring to become Accepted, that she was Amyrlin without the Three Oaths upon her... Now look where she's at now: she's Amyrlin without the Three Oaths upon her (of the rebels at least), and eventually of the entire tower...

 

Nynaeve saw herself married to Lan in one of her viewings into the possible future, and where is she at now? She's married to Lan...

 

So glimpsing into the future through the rings is quite possible, granted a varying version of the future, but a possible future nonetheless...

 

And for the second statement, where does Verin say that she had never used a portal stone before? And if she hadn't what's to say that she hadn't studied it or something like that? Or at least gained some knowledge through the Notes or other sources?

[CUBAREY]

Quote"

 

Consider everyone's opinion, if you think he's wrong, that's great: PROVE IT. Where does it say in the book "oh yeah, by the way, Verin's explanation is actually extremely simple, no complications here..."

 

The question,for me, is not whether I consider someone's opinion, I try to read everyone's entries with an open mind, but which entries I deem, from the evidence to be plausible and which I actually accept.  Verin's statement to Ingtar has been used to buttress the argument that Verin was either a Darkfriend or had to have compelled Morraine. The simple evidence however, points to the fact that Verin was not lieing.  Now, Verin could still turn out to a Darkfriend or have compelled Moraine but her statement to Ingtat is not evidence in favor of such a theory.

 

Now, everyone could speculate wildly about what could turn out to be the truth about any given character or event, but it am interested only in speculation that can be backed up with evidence, the more the better. For instance someone could speculate that Tam, Rand's surrogate father was a Darkfriend or that Cadsuanne was actually an immortal(my own pet fantasy).  I might enjoy either speculation because it is "imaginative" I would however, still insist on some evidence before deeming them plausible much less accepting them as likely.

 

Thus, the burdon of proof is not on someone trying to disprove a theory but instead on someone trying to advance it.

[Jonn]

Well Rey, here's what I think. These are just general thoughts that apply to us all so don't feel singled out.

 

I think that it's rather easy to sit by and say "PROVE IT".

 

It's much harder to put yourself in someone else's shoes and in an unbiased fashion, try to understand their point of view.

 

I certainly have difficulties with this from time to time, no doubt. Still I do try to make an approach to get people to see my side of an issue. If someone can't see my side of it, I encourage them to examine my idea with an open mind, try to empathize with what I'm saying. This way perhaps if you don't buy my explanation of things you can at least come to see why I might feel the way I do about something. At the very least, an understanding of my position, where I stand can be observed and at least respected, but not agreed upon.

 

See you don't have to agree with me. I'm not looking to "win". I think everyone here wants the same thing, that is: To have their ideas respected...

 

In return respect is shown to others.

 

I think the point is that if you come into these forums to boost your ego, you're going about it in the wrong way. I've never come here to prove anything. So the term, "PROVE IT", this really means nothing to me.

 

I have always thought of these forums as a place for ideas. Good ones, not so good ones, but the intent behind them would be to share, to advance other ideas, to move on in anticipation of the end of this tale. Enthusiasm, energy, imagination, adventure....Proof? Where does proof come into it?

 

Sure, if you're discussing, trying to make a point, it's very useful, it's very together to have your little notebooks, your books on hand to go back and give page numbers and references, like it's a court trial...that's so square man. Talk about the scenes. Talk about the emotions, the plot twists, the overall vision of the this piece of ART. You're missing a masterpiece if you sit there and try to count brush strokes.

 

Yes, being accurate is important. Backing your ideas with evidence is important. But still important is how do these things make us feel as an audience. What surprises will reveal themselves? What mysteries will be brought to light?

 

Verin, is a very exciting character in her own right because the possibilites are so wide open for her. Any character you can sit there and say, "what's her story...what is she up to? She's very intriguing. What does this mean, what she did here? What does she mean by saying that?" is very worthwhile to look into. She's not especially strong, striking physically, but there is something more to her. It's a reflection of what we hope there is about ourselves. that underneath our appearance, there is something there that people can't see, a mystery, an unseen depth. Her character represents that.

 

It's an invitation to let your imagination fly loose.

 

Sure she could have said what she said (I don't even remember exactly what she said and in what context) and not lied, simply interpreted something that was misunderstood.

 

There's proof for that I'm sure if you dig, but what is right in front of your face that you're missing on every single damned page that Verin appears on is MYSTERY. Everything about her says that she is mysterious, up to something, following a plan that no one else can see clearly.

 

There are inconsistencies in what she says and the timing with which she acts upon.

 

How did she know to send Tomas just in time to save Perrin in the Waterwood in Shadow Rising?

 

Things like this...time. Just in the nick of TIME. What strange timing for her to have shown up at this TIME. Her father used to say it's TIME to throw the dice.

 

When they all go through the Portal Stone experience in The Great Hunt, she immediately has an explanation for what happened to them, which wouldn't be uncommon for one of the Brown Ajah to know something about it, but can we really discard the fact that she was involved in a warping of space and TIME? In this discussion?

 

70 years she's been on a path. What is the mystery behind it? That's what this thread is about. We look for inconsistencies, anomalies and we try to connect them. Let's do so.

 

No one stipulated that we have to be wrong or right. That we have to win a ******* argument...

 

It's long past time for us to change up the way we do things.

 

Cloglord mentioned that we are a brainpool here...Well, that's a rather idealized way to put it. You know what though, why don't we try that. It's as good an idea as I've heard. A brainpool suggests that we all have brains and that we all can contribute in a pool. A pool of what now?

 

I think it's ideas. I think it's imagination and enthusiasm.

 

Heck, you think I'm not tired of name-calling? I am well past tired of it, and I'm tired of the attitudes that perpetuate that culture on these forums.

 

Your ideas aren't good enough.

That's crazy. That's too complicated.

PROVE IT.

 

I need to improve, but so do we all. So why don't we try?

 

We can all win. I believe that. Now, why don't we all prove it.

[cloglord]

And for the second statement, where does Verin say that she had never used a portal stone before? And if she hadn't what's to say that she hadn't studied it or something like that? Or at least gained some knowledge through the Notes or other sources?

 

When Rand and Co. travel by portal stone to Toman head Verin says that she has never traveled by portal stone.  Further she says that she only knows the symbol for 3 stones, and that the one on Toman Head was the only one that she has visited in person.  Interestingly, she had said earlier that she knew of no portal stone closer than the Aiel Waste, which implies some knowledge of a portal stone in the waste, but that is not really pertinent to this...

 

Thus, the burdon of proof is not on someone trying to disprove a theory but instead on someone trying to advance it.

 

While correct, this is not a court of law, and no one needs to appoint themselves to the prosecution and increase the burden.  There is a difference between what we are doing and some sort of two-sided adversarial debate, and as Jonn pointed out, it IS easier to sit along the sidelines and second guess another person's ideas,  In the US we call it armchair quarterbacking or backseat driving, and neither term has positive connotations.

 

Now, everyone could speculate wildly about what could turn out to be the truth about any given character or event, but it am interested only in speculation that can be backed up with evidence, the more the better.

 

If speculation is backed up by lots of evidence, then it's not really speculation is it?  We can support our speculations, but when we use evidence then it becomes an attempt to prove ourselves right, and then it becomes adversarial.  I think it is pretty obvious what happens when people start getting defensive ::).  Simply, if the answer is that obvious what is the point in discussing it?

 

we all can contribute in a pool. A pool of what now?

 

Judging by the  Thanksgiving I've had, my vote is for a pool of mostly congealed turkey gravy.

[Jonn]

 

we all can contribute in a pool. A pool of what now?

 

Judging by the  Thanksgiving I've had, my vote is for a pool of mostly congealed turkey gravy.

 

I'm afraid I can't contribute to that. All the gravy I have is currently clogging up my arteries.

[Caramoore]

I wanted to come up with a reply for this topic, but right now all I can think about is how bad I can't stand Auburn at the moment.

[BrainFireBob]

Bob is one of those people who obviously loves to dump fuel onto a fire so, that I won't forgive either.

 

Jonn, once again you reveal that you are quick to judgment without the ability to read others, or their motivvations, well. Anyone who has read the Asmodean thread- and I've read both, including the one on the old forum- knows that it was your temper that flared forth first.

 

Why? Because when people looked at your idea and said that it was little more than your personal wish for what happened- which is what your defense of "but this is more interesting!" does, in fact, boil down to, you lashed out violently and personally.

 

This post I'm quoting, combined with your following post, is ironic in the extreme- in that you cannot see the contradictions in attitudes you are presenting.

 

Shortly, you throw tantrums, and then claim it's because you are not treated with respect- that you need to show you deserve, and tantrums are not the way to do it- and then claim the people who call you on your tantrums are being insensitive to you, or are bullying you.

 

Your posts are the ones peppered with ad hominem aspersions on the character and intelligence of your opponents- and then you have the utter gall to make snide remarks about them and claim that they are only worthy of *your* respect as if your respect has been shown to matter?

 

Yes, there are direct comments to you that are disrespectful in the other thread. Of course, I don't recall any of those posts that contained outright lies about what you had said, or straw man constructions- unlike your own posts in response.

 

So lay off the high horse until you're earned it. Cloglord has, actually. He thinks things through, admits when he's misremembered something, and actually is interested in pursuing ideas- not ham-fisted histrionic attempts to force the community to agree.

 

In truth, Bob is one of those people who can't stand lies and misrepresentations, and he's called you on them in the other threads. Once again, you are radically misrepresenting what happened there- who are you trying to convince, Jonn, yourself? The people who didn't read it? Because it is how it is.

 

As to the burden of proof argument: It becomes assumed when you stop presenting an idea as an idea or as "wouldn't it be neat" and move on to "no, this is fact." Then you must proffer proof. And Jonn, I've yet to see you not try and claim your idea is the truth, instead of an idea or opinion you hold.

[CUBAREY]

To Jonn and all other rationale readers:

 

First, as I have prevously stated I share your intrigue concerning Verin, she is in fact my favorite A.S. Second, if you do not like the term "prove it" fair enough, how about persuade me, show me how your intuition and imagination are anchored to the books.

 

Second, you state,

 

Sure, if you're discussing, trying to make a point, it's very useful, it's very together to have your little notebooks, your books on hand to go back and give page numbers and references, like it's a court trial...that's so square man. Talk about the scenes. Talk about the emotions, the plot twists, the overall vision of the this piece of ART. You're missing a masterpiece if you sit there and try to count brush strokes.

 

As it happens, I am a lawyer and "square". That does not mean I lack or do not appreciate imagination, adventure, intrigue, emotions, vision and/or plot twists, it does however mean that I am predispossed to want to be persuaded

that a given assertion is supported by more then what if's.  If a theory is not based on a specific facts but on the overall structure of a novel or its vision thats reasonable all I ask is that you explain why you believe the structure of the novel or its vision supports the theory.  I am a lawyer after all.  

 

For me a large part of the fun of the threads is not only that they give a glimpse of the contributors' imagination but also reveal the way they tic (the way a person's intellect and emotions come together). A "just the facts" approach would indeed be quite boring.  Speculation, without foundation may not be boring but I would find it less then intellectually stimulating.  That being said, I appreciate your contribution to this thread, I simply do not either understand (time anamoly theories) or find unconvincing from the evidence offered (Darkfriend, compulsion theories) some of the more complicated theories about Verin's motives.

 

Moreover,, my fondness for simplicity is based in part on my legal training.  The police initially look at the husband of a murdered wife as a suspect not because the police is lazy or unimaginative but because statistics show that the vast percentage of murders are committed by a relative. Similarly, I try to disprove (in my own mind) the obvious or simple explaination before delving into more complicated reasons for a given action or statement.

 

Last point, the entitety of my ill-concieved "Bloghead" entry was occasioned by the fact that the arguments against RAW seemed not to be based on the logic or content of his entry but on the twin reasons that those writing had personal issiues with RAW and were annoyed that other participents saw RAW's views as authotitative.  The combination amused me.  I could understand your attitudes and point of views on the matter but the way they were expressed nevertheless amused me.

 

 

All that being said, I am really intrigued by Verin's arm not being totally healed and the relationship that this may have to the fact that Rand's side could not be fully healed from the injuries caused by Ishemal and Fain.  Any theories?

 

No offense taken by your post it was intelligent and informative.

 

[lou]

i dont hold it against you for being a lawyer.

 

rand's injuries were caused by specialized blades, i recall that the myrrdraal blade that injured tam althor in tEotW, moiraine had mentioned that tam would need further healing (was this why verin was in the two rivers?)there was also the further healing mat sopposedly needed after being separated from the dagger. perhaps verin was injured by a blade from the darkside? those are the only incidents i can think of that seem relative.

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

when we use evidence then it becomes an attempt to prove ourselves right, and then it becomes adversarial.  I think it is pretty obvious what happens when people start getting defensive .  Simply, if the answer is that obvious what is the point in discussing it?

 

No when we use evidence to support speculation we are showing that the speculation is based on our reading of the books and not are mere wishes.  A discussion only becomes adversarial when people differ on the meaning of a given fact.  Moreover, the fact that something is adversarial is not in and of itself a bad thing.  The adversarial system requires that opposing points of view offer evidence in support of their position thus bringing to light evidence that might otherwise not be raised. An adversarial system only becomes a negative when the parties view each other (and not their argumemts) as flawed or the arguments devolve into personal attacks.  I have been as guilty as others in letting personal feelings get in the way, but the fact that I want to be persuaded and just offered theories does not indicate a lack of imagination. 

 

Lastly, WOT is 11 books long, 7,00 to 8,000 pages, evidence in support of a proposition may be clearly stated in the books but one may be forgiven if he does not remember a given fact or its importance in a work this large.  Moreover, simple facts if imaginatively framed in an argument can be the building blocks that support quite complicated concepts and theories.

[CUBAREY]

[Quote:

 

 

those are the only incidents i can think of that seem relative.

 

My interest in the relationship is more based on the fact that the inability of healing to totally fix Rand's side seem to be associated with the fact that each injury deposited a different type of "evil" into his side and not the actual weopons used. Simply put was Verin's injury not totally healed because she was cut by one of the same type of "evils" that Rand was?  This is especially intriguing because will are told that a cut from fain's dagger is always fatal.(Mat absorbed the taint in the knife because of his proximity to it not because he was cut). Now, that the Dragon Reborn is not necessarily killed by the taint might be expl;ained by his role in the pattern or is taverenness, but why would Verin survive a cut from such evil?  My speculation is not spported by any evidence that comes to mind and I have no theories as to how this fact is important, but something about it tickles the back of my mind.

 

 

Jonn, how is this fact(the inability of Verin's injury to be totally healed by the power) intrigrated into your "time anamolies theory"?

 

[Jonn]

Well Rey,

 

If we are making arguments to present everything as a legal exercise I can see your point.

 

These forums are a fan based area of discussion. Showing emotion and presenting emotional content is not forbidden. If we were talking about music, it would be easier to see that what we are saying here is subject to personal taste.

 

We can't always follow strict legal doctrine. We can't always see subjective content as a focus to "score points". I'm not in law school nor do I plan to be. If that is what you're here to practice, I can't say that I really like that idea...

 

There may be merits, as you say, in presenting opposing viewpoints, but where is the law that ensures that everyone is respected?

 

That darn freedom of speech thingy keeps getting in the way...Look, social interaction is always delicate. I am a little disturbed that you are amused at the distress of others. You don't know the depth of what has gone on in the past between myself and some of these people, and even if you did, how would you be able to relate to what I feel unless I explain it?

 

And what then? You can either show empathy or...amusement, disgust, outrage...whatever. You could hide it all behind your veil of legal training, which I'm sure is very thorough.  I find it striking that you say that you've been "guilty of letting [your] personal feelings get in the way..." What you feel means everything. How does following your feelings get in the way of talking about art? About fantasy? About Wheel of Time?

 

Look, my point about sitting at your desk reading the boards with books in hand and notes is this:

There's more to it than a single detail. There is more to some things than just one passage, one quote, one moment. There are things that are unknown. Things that logic cannot pin down.

 

Verin is a big unknown. If she was as easy to figure out as simply looking in an index to find out what she was about, we wouldn't have to examine anything.

 

Let's say this for the sake of opposing ideas...Let's say it's as Robert says to the T concerning the "lie". Turns out she didn't lie. It's classic Aes Sedai interpretation vs. confusion, double talk. Well then...why is she so mysterious? If she is a classic example of Aes Sedai, why does she stand out then? What leads us to believe that there are things about her that are worth looking into?

 

This is the deal for me. Verin is not a typical example of Aes Sedai. Some can argue that she is MORE Aes Sedai than your average Aes Sedai. Regardless, you can't apply the typical standards to her actions, not with any confidence, not the way I see it.

 

Robert's hypothesis about Verin's lie is based on what is standard about Aes Sedai. They twist words and promises such that as long as they believe what they say is the truth they can say it.

Well, by that point in The Great Hunt, we didn't know that much. We didn't know that they could be physically hurt by lying. We didn't know that they had to trick themselves into believing. We were simply lead to believe that an Aes Sedai would rather be vague in order to make room to conceal something that could be thought of as a lie. We didn't know anything about the physical repercussions involved, the self-delusion trick.

 

All we knew is that Aes Sedai say things that could mean something else.

 

OK so that's Aes Sedai in general, as a general rule. Can we agree that Verin is in many ways, an exceptional Aes Sedai? Aes Sedai are weird enough as it is, but to call one of them weird by Aes Sedai standards...that's saying something.

 

So early on in the series we meet Verin who later on turns out to be a unique Aes Sedai. We are  at that point just getting an idea about how she differs from Moiraine, who is herself, an exceptional Aes Sedai. So at this point we can deduce that Verin is just as big or even more of an anomaly amongst the Aes Sedai ranks as Moiraine.

 

OK, now why are we so intent on sticking to the standard for Aes Sedai behavior? Verin is clearly a case which one has to think outside the norm to even approach figuring out.

 

Note Moiraine's reaction to hearing about what Verin said. An Aes Sedai surely knows that another sister might misinterpret a situation for whatever reason. Would she really be surprised that Verin, knowing that there's something big going on with those boys, would conveniently misinterpret something that Moiraine may have said in her presence? As an Aes Sedai, Moiraine would probably conceal her suspicion if that were the case on the grounds of:

She must have misunderstood what I said or convinced herself...

 

Why call it to attention when a lie could easily just be a calculated misinterpretation?

 

Well, my hypothesis is that Moriaine doesn't even remember saying enough to Verin for Verin to misinterpret Moiraine's actions or words as a request to have her follow the boys.

 

She would mention it, call attention to it because she is actually startled that Verin could have possibly lied.

 

Hmm...well...Stop me if you don't get my drift on this.

 

I have another idea to throw out there if you will indulge me. Ready?

 

Could Lanfear have posed as Moiraine and told Verin to look after Rand? She could have used Illusion, Compulsion, a combination. See at this point Lanfear wants Rand to reach Falme. She wants him to overthrow Ishamael. She wants him to become the Dragon. She needs someone who channels around Rand so she can conceal it if she needs to "help" with things like portal stones or the like. She can still remain hidden as Selene or just stay out of sight. It's been a while since I've read The Great Hunt, so bear with me if I haven't thought every detail out. What do you think? Possible?