Pool of Saidin at the Eye of the World

[DLeeF]

Does anyone have any theories about the pool of Saidin at the Eye of the World and its purpose.  All of the male channelers present were sucking it up as fast as they could.  Aginor was healed by drawing on it, but were they actually increasing their strength by drawing on it?  Why was everyone so anxious to get at it?  Was its purpose literally to hide the Horn of Valere and the dragon banner until the Dragon came again?

[Majsju]

The actual purpose was to provide the Dragon Reborn with a source of untainted Saidin. Since it was intended for DR to find it, hiding the horn and the banner there was a quite smart move.

 

As for Aginors interest,

 

Week 20 Question: Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean Saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He was able to channel clean saidin, true, but only through the "filter" which had been provided by the Dark One just a short time previously, which meant the Dark One would be aware of him channeling wherever he was. Remember, Aginor was the creator of the Trollocs; he is quite able to reason things out clearly, at least in a scientific sense. Also, he wasn't certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what he was doing when he channeled, too. For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage. Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

[Darkness Incarnated]

I believe it has been addressed before, but how did the Aes Sedai manage to clean it? And were they sure the Dragon Reborn would find it?

[callandor]

i dont remember how, but all of the ones who did do it died, so it must've been hard

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Probably in a manner similar to what Rand and Nyneave.  During the Breaking, they wouldn't have had the meens to do it on a global scale, so they did what they could and filled a big Well with it.

[Breaker of Light]

If you read the part with moirione, she said there was enough saidin in the eye to rip open the DO's prison.

[bcxanth]

They knew the Dragon Reborn would find it because one of their number had a Foretelling about it.  That's how they knew what had to be hidden, and in what manner.  We see a part of the discussion when Rand is doing his Quantom Leap trip in the Rhuidian Columns.

[Majestic]

If you read the part with moirione, she said there was enough saidin in the eye to rip open the DO's prison.

 

I wonder how she could measure the amount of Saidin when she channels Saidar, and if you channel the one power into cuendillar then it becomes stronger, kinda doesn't make sense.

[Charlz Guybon]

They knew the Dragon Reborn would find it because one of their number had a Foretelling about it.  That's how they knew what had to be hidden, and in what manner.  We see a part of the discussion when Rand is doing his Quantom Leap trip in the Rhuidian Columns.

 

What I want to know is how the Shadow knew what the Greenman was protecting. I doubt a darkfriend could find him no matter how great the need.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I wonder how she could measure the amount of Saidin when she channels Saidar, and if you channel the one power into cuendillar then it becomes stronger, kinda doesn't make sense.

 

Moiraine says alot of things in the first two books that turn out to be dead wrong or just her opinion.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I like Moiraine and think that, on the whole, she is among the most intelligent characters in the books.  I was most impressed by the way she could accept the fact that she was wrong sometimes, learn from it, and move on.

 

What I want to know is how the Shadow knew what the Greenman was protecting. I doubt a darkfriend could find him no matter how great the need.

 

Aginor and Balthamel followed Mat to the Eye.  I think they were following the taint on the Shadar Logoth dagger.  To quote:

 

"He guided us."  The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope.

 

(Aginor speaking, TEoTW, ch 50 )

 

As to how they knew what the the Greenman was protecting .... I'll let RJ explain:

 

They [the Forsaken] still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 (important part bolded)

 

So, Aginor and Balthamel could "zoom in" on events of interest.  I imagine that the making and hiding of the Eye might be one such occurrence.

[Charlz Guybon]

One would think that with that advantage Aginor and Balthamel would have done more damage than the other Forsaken, but that wasn't the case.

 

They [the Forsaken] still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 (important part bolded)

 

So, Aginor and Balthamel could "zoom in" on events of interest.  I imagine that the making and hiding of the Eye might be one such occurrence.

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... don't get me started, Captain Guybon.  I devoted a large portion of one thread to how crappy a villain I thought Aginor was.

[Luckers]

Hehehe. That was a fun thread Robert.

 

I concider it possible that that the Eye of the World might have originally been dreamed up as a way of cleaning the One Power--the likelyhood that Rand's method, however brilliant, didn't occur to the Aes Sedai of the time is unlikely to my mind--oh, not impossible, certainly having the most qualified people miss things that our main characters come up with is a theme of RJ's, but concider the immediacy at which the Forsaken, of whom only Cyndane and Mesanna, percieved Rand's method after learning he had the Choedan Kal.

 

My guess is that two things made it impossible for the Aes Sedai of the time to Cleanse Saidin as Rand did; one, they lacked the ability to draw on enough of the Power to achieve their ends (the Choedan Kal) and two, they had no place to put the Taint. I believe that it was the excess Taint that killed the Aes Sedai who were originally involved, for i believe their were two circles, one who was cleansing the Power, and one who was dealing with the cleansed power, or the Taint. After all, one hundred could not have been involved in one circle anyway.

 

In any case, following that line of thought, it is my belief that aside from creating the Eye to protect those items, I think they also left it as both a lesson and a suggest and a warning for Rand. 'They were saying, yes, there is a way to cleanse Saidin, but be careful for it is dangerous'. Amongst other things Rand knowing that it took a hundred Aes Sedai to make as small a well as the one at the Eye tells him to look to greater and more powerful tools, and their death warns him of the need to dispose the Taint.

 

It might even be that they did not want to set down in Prophecy that Rand would one day cleanse saidin; both because it warned the enemy and might lead him to attempt it too soon. Instead they left hints, signs and an example, trusting (or perhaps not trusting, given the streangth of Diendre's (sp?) Foretellings) LTT's inherent brilliance to percieve that method and the warnings.

[oosquaiaddict]

Aginors been ineffective, but I'd say Balthamel as Hallima has done a pretty good job... or is it just that the Aes Sedai are always squabbling and acting like idiots on general principle?

[Guest cwestervelt]

The Aes Sedai's perpetual bickering certainly helped Halima do his (her?) job.  Most of his effort appeared to be focused on suppressing Egwene's dreaming by inducing the headaches that he was then the only person who could alleviate.  Until Chessa's concoction put a dent in one anyway.

 

None of the Foresaken were particularly successful in there endeanvors.  At least not when they first emerged.  They couldn't come to grips with the fact that 3000 years, the small issue of a cataclysm, and various other events made most of what they knew to be completely out of date.  If they would have spent some time adjusting themselves to their new situations before trying to act, they would have been much more dangerous when first encountered.

[Darkness Incarnated]

As I understand it, the Forsaken spoke (still do) the Old Tongue. How is it that they appear to be quite fluent in whatever Third Agers use? Just how long were they free before they started influencing the world? Somehow the idea of the Forsaken going to class to learn the alphabet is a bit silly.

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

RJ addressed that under the "Question of the week"

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

Week 14 Question: If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

 

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."

 

Emphasis added.

[Darkness Incarnated]

Thanks, cwestervelt, though the idea of them going to class (figuratively) still has me in stitches. I wonder who was the brightest student...

Aginor was the science geek, Lanfear the prom queen, Graendal the cheerleader, Rahvin the quarterback? Demandred the captain of the chess team? Asmodean was definitely the loser...

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm seeing visions of Carrie just thinking about Lanfear as prom queen.

[Charlz Guybon]

LOL ... don't get me started, Captain Guybon.  I devoted a large portion of one thread to how crappy a villain I thought Aginor was.

 

I just had a thought. If Aginor and Balthamel could zoom in on events of interest while they were bound, could the Dark One do so as well? If not, now that the seals have grown very weak, would that now be within his power to do so?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I honestly have no idea.

[Charlz Guybon]

I honestly have no idea.

 

IIRC, in LoC, Demandred thinks to himself that the Dark One was surprisingly knowledgeable about some things, yet ignorant about others. If the Dark One is not omniscient, but can "zoom in" on events of interest, than that would make sense.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Then you have your answer.

 

But back to the Aginor business. I don't get it. The Eye ran out so quickly. Why would Aginor need such a small amount of untainted saidin? And what did Rand need it for? He can use tainted saidin just as easily, and it isn't like the taint-free saidin was enough for him to use for quite a while...

[Theandrin]

I always thought that the eye was like the well similar to what Nye and Cad use. I just thought that after it ran out he could use Saidin through the DO and simply "refill" it.

[Cog]

it probably ran out so quickly because 3 people were channeling it at the same time, Aginor, Rand and Ba'alzamon/Ishamael.

Rand couldnt use tainted Saidin because at the time he still couldnt sense or consciously channel saidin, but it appears that when the one source is 'distilled' (I cant remember whether that was the word used in the book) it can be channeled much more easily, and in much larger amounts without danger of being burnt out. it seems to me like Aginor wanted it for his own glory, Ishamael to break the DOs prison, and rand used it to strike the first blow against Ishamael

I also remember the moiraine mentioned that the amount of Saidin in the eye of the world was enough to break the dark ones prison or to mend it again