Can you break an age without breaking the world?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, I think that belief has its merits, however, I still stick firm to my theory:

 

I'm wondering...isn't Shayol Ghul located aproximately where Russia is? Couldnt it be that the "thinness" that the channelers in the AoL felt was really the result of heavy radiation?

[Mr Ares]

Well, I think that belief has its merits, however, I still stick firm to my theory:

 

I'm wondering...isn't Shayol Ghul located aproximately where Russia is? Couldnt it be that the "thinness" that the channelers in the AoL felt was really the result of heavy radiation?

It's hard to say, what with the melting continets and all. The Breaking involved massive geographical changes, so who knows?

[GrandpaG]

Or, maybe the first age belonged to the dinosaurs and because they were so big and heavy the wheel couldn't turn with them loading it down so their age last millions of years.  Then, the second age was our time, Merc and Mosc, we discover channelling, I take over the world and create the portal stones so I can visit my brothers the Finns over in Finnland.  After I die, after living to be about a thousand because I know how to do healing on myself, I have created the Age of Legends which is actually a sub age of my age.  The rest, as they say, is history.  Case closed. ;D

 

Have a good weekend!

 

 

I was half punch drunk because it was so close to quitting time when I wrote this, but maybe I stumbled onto something by accident.

 

Is it possible that the Age of Legends is the tale end of our Age of Technology?  Maybe an extension of our age?  That's why Mosc and Merc have not been totally forgotten but are distorted memories from say a thousand or so years before the Age of Legends rose out of the ash of the nuclear disasters?  No proof as usual.  Just pondering.  :-\

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, that is possible, but remember, a single age is not completely forgotten until a single revolution of the wheel, and besides that, if it was 1000 years before the AoL, we would have to create portal stones in the very near future. And we would have to begin channeling before that, too.

 

And I dont honestly think we could recover from the devastation of a nuclear war in 1000 years. I think as far as 2 thousand years in the future, we would still be feeling the end effects of the radiation (I know radiation only lasts 100 years, but Im talking about all the mutations that occuring beeing bred into our gene pool). Also, I don't think it would happen that just one place would get bombed. If there was a nuclear war, everyone would be involved, simply to keep everyone else from using their nukes on them.

 

Now it would be interesting if the first channeler actually got their ability from radiation. A little crazy, a little too comic-book, I know, but still...

[GrandpaG]

In the world of fantasy the only thing that is impossible is the thing that the author specifically states is impossible in his world...all else is possible.  Maybe not probable, but possible.  Would I lie to you?  ::)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, I don't know, would you?http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,18796.0.html

[Majsju]

Ha, it's fun what you can accidently stumble upon when looking for something else...

 

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

So unless there was an Age with channeling before the AOL (which would go against pretty much everything we know so far), RJ here states flat out that AOL and 3rd Age are two separate ages.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Actually, I don't think it does go against everything we've read so far. Remember the Portal Stones? They were supposedly created before the AoL. So is it possible...?

 

No, I don't think it is, because I don't think RJ would mislead us that much...

[RobertAlexWillis]

So unless there was an Age with channeling before the AOL (which would go against pretty much everything we know so far), RJ here states flat out that AOL and 3rd Age are two separate ages.

 

LOL.  Way to completely ignore the second half of RJ's sentence.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

That sounds very much like a self-correcting qualifier.  As in "not necessarily the previous Age to that of the books, just that the appearance of channeling marked the end of an Age and the beginning of a new one."  Which is exactly what I've been saying.

[Charlz Guybon]

2. The Fourth Age will see the end of Channeling.

 

Channeling seems to be on the way out, despite the recent surge in people found by the Tower.  That surge is only because of a change in Egwene's acceptance standards, not in the population.  And with the appearance of new abilities, it seems that channeling will be what is lost.

 

Well, there it is.  To summarize my personal opinion in answer to the original question:

 

The end of an Age of the Wheel is marked by a fundamental change in the abilities of humanity, or the inherent nature of the world.  It does not have to be marked by violent upheaval, although violent upheaval often accompanies change of that magnitude.

 

The decline of channeling in the westlands can be easily laid at the foot of Darwinian evolution, per Occam's razor there is no need to invoke any great metaphysical change to the world. I'm not talking about the Red Ajah culling humanity either, there are far to few of them to matter, but the fact that 4/5ths of channelers die without training. And for the last 3600 years, that situation has covered over 99% of the channeling population west of the spine of the world because of the lackluster recruitment policies of the Aes Sedai. What's worse, most women would die in their teens before they've born many, if any children. Most men, even if they learn control will be dead by age 30.  Frankly, only the vast genetic benifit accrued by the surviving women who go on to have a reproductive window lasting centuries can explain why there are any people left in the West who can channel. (as an aside, one would think that in backwaters like the Two River, people would take note of women who lived several hundred years, and wonder about the cause)

 

Contrast the demographic situation in the Westlands to that of the Aiel, where all who are born with the spark are found and taught, and even more to the Sharans were the ability is actively bred. If one had continuous census records in Shara from the breaking to present, I'd wager ten thousand gold crowns that the population of the Ayyad hasn't gone down.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

To answer, once again, Oh Puissant Tilter of Windmills, Signor Quixote the Self-Confounded, the Breaking, for all its terrible consequences, did not inherently change humanity.  Aes Sedai before, Aes Sedai after.  The same fight they were fighting before (vs Shai'tan) is the same fight they were fighting after.  Using the same primary tool, the One Power.  The world changed, but humanity (who apparently make up the primary threads of the Pattern) did not.

 

For the Pattern to change signifigantly (assuming that each Age Lace is different from the others) the threads making it up have to change inherently.  Maj says that adding Wolfbrothers and Seers and Sniffers and taking away Channelers won't change anything maningful.  (Actually, he just singled out Wolfbrothers, content to ignore both my other examples and the Jordan quote I supplied, in which Jordan apparently thinks such changes are signifigant).

 

So, as the Baby Solomon to your Doddering Icon of Senilitude, I must say, although you are correct that the Breaking was on a much larger and more universal scale than the other examples given, you completely missed the point.  Its not the amount of change, its the type.

 

Again ... show me any example or quote from the author that says that either:

 

1. Massive political or geographic upheaval can change the Age, or,

 

2. The Age of Legends is the Second Age.

 

My argument is based on recorded statements from the author that in two instances (and, importantly, the ONLY two instances we have) a change in humanities abilities (discovering channeling, and the "present" emergence of Min, Hurin, and Perrin-like abilities) are indicative of a change in Age.

 

See ... Jordan says, (according to fader, who I see no reason to disbelieve), that Age ending events don't fit any set of criteria.  Events like say, the Breaking.  Or drilling the Bore.  Those are one time events in a time period, and don't define an Age.  What defines an Age (and therefore when an Age changes) are the people in it.  And the people before the Bore had the same abilities as the people after the Bore, and as the people in the "present".  One Age.  Just like the people before the Breaking had the same abilities as the people after the Breaking, and as the people in the "present".  One Age.

 

The breaking itself didn't inherently change humanity, however the cause of the breaking did. The taint on saidin changed society in a massive fashion. It not only lead to the destruction of civilization, it lead to a universal reversal of gender roles. Instead of a world were men dominate (in some places more than others), it ushered in a world were women dominate. This is a much larger change than any I think that will be brought in by the resurgences of wolf brothers and seers. In fact, I would say that the third age ended the day Rand cleansed Saidin. Now that men can safely channel, patriarchy will slowly but surely emerge and males will once become the dominate gender. The Last Battle is incidental, no matter how much damage is done to civilization, it can't have the amount of impact that the cleansing has done.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If one had continuous census records in Shara from the breaking to present, I'd wager ten thousand gold crowns that the population of the Ayyad hasn't gone down.

 

Well, when Jordan gave the percentage decrease figures, he gave them as percentages of the "population" to which the Dark One had access.  Since we've seen the Forsaken in both Shara and Seanchan, I would suppose that those areas are included in the demographics.  But, I admit, that is my opinion; Jordan did not specify.

 

The breaking itself didn't inherently change humanity, however the cause of the breaking did. The taint on saidin changed society in a massive fashion. It not only lead to the destruction of civilization, it lead to a universal reversal of gender roles.

 

The taint on saidin did not remove an ability from humanity, nor did it add a new ability to humanity.  It simply added a new consequence to an already present ability.  I contend that even the changes brought about by the taint are not as profound as the changes that will be brought on by the dissapearance of the ability to channel, or the introduction of new abilities like Min's, Perrin's, and Hurin's.

 

There is also the fact that the taint was imposed from without by the Dark One.  I don't think that it is a "natural" part of the Wheel's progression from Age to Age.

 

Actually, I think the entire three-thousand plus years from the Breaking to the "present" has been one great big do-over, for the Pattern.  Lews Therin screwed up.  He should have re-sealed Shai'tan, but failed, so the Pattern had to reset and try again.  The war they are fighting now is the same war, utilizing the same methods.  The major players are the same, on both sides, with the exception of Mat and Perrin, who will prove to be the difference this time.

 

By saying that the taint actually triggered the change in Age, you're saying that the Dark One is helping the Wheel of Time move in its intended course.  While that would be grandly ironic, I don't think it's the case.

[Vambram]

How does your theory mesh with Ishmael saying to Rand that the two of them have been fighting each other thousands of times for thousands of years? Did Ishmael know what he was talking about, or was this another case of exaggeration or false information by a Forsaken?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ishamael is a lying liar who lies.

 

Ishy just wants to boost his own gradiose notions of himself.  By the time he's saying those things to Rand, not only is he insane, but his mind is half-melded with the Dark One's from overuse of the True Power.

 

Ishamael is not some kind of anti-Dragon.

[Vambram]

Thats what I think, too. However, now instead of an insane Ishy, now Rand's arch-nemises is Ishy's resurrected form, Moridin who still stands as Naeblis among the Forsaken. It will be interesting to see everything on how that plays out.

[Majsju]

So unless there was an Age with channeling before the AOL (which would go against pretty much everything we know so far), RJ here states flat out that AOL and 3rd Age are two separate ages.

 

LOL.  Way to completely ignore the second half of RJ's sentence.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

That sounds very much like a self-correcting qualifier.  As in "not necessarily the previous Age to that of the books, just that the appearance of channeling marked the end of an Age and the beginning of a new one."  Which is exactly what I've been saying.

 

Say what now?

 

Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books

, ie unless there was an entire Age of channeling before AOL, their appearance marks the beginning of the AOL.

 

or at least the end of the Age before that one

, ie the end of what we here often refer to as the 1st age.

 

If there's any self-correcting mechanism here it is that RJ points out that it is not as simple as "Ok, we have a channeler, new age folks! There's a tad more things involved.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

The taint on saidin did not remove an ability from humanity, nor did it add a new ability to humanity.  It simply added a new consequence to an already present ability.  I contend that even the changes brought about by the taint are not as profound as the changes that will be brought on by the dissapearance of the ability to channel, or the introduction of new abilities like Min's, Perrin's, and Hurin's.

 

There is also the fact that the taint was imposed from without by the Dark One.  I don't think that it is a "natural" part of the Wheel's progression from Age to Age.

 

Actually, I think the entire three-thousand plus years from the Breaking to the "present" has been one great big do-over, for the Pattern.  Lews Therin screwed up.  He should have re-sealed Shai'tan, but failed, so the Pattern had to reset and try again.  The war they are fighting now is the same war, utilizing the same methods.  The major players are the same, on both sides, with the exception of Mat and Perrin, who will prove to be the difference this time.

 

By saying that the taint actually triggered the change in Age, you're saying that the Dark One is helping the Wheel of Time move in its intended course.  While that would be grandly ironic, I don't think it's the case.

 

Well, since I don't believe channeling is going away anytime soon, nor do I believe that the introduction of wolfbrothers, seers, and sniffers could possibly affect society nearly as much as the taint on saidin, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Ishamael is a lying liar who lies.

 

Ishy just wants to boost his own gradiose notions of himself.  By the time he's saying those things to Rand, not only is he insane, but his mind is half-melded with the Dark One's from overuse of the True Power.

 

Ishamael is not some kind of anti-Dragon.

 

I don't think Ishamael has ever been "sane" in the normal sense. How oculd someone who wants to destroy the entire world be sane?

 

But I would say that is the extent of his insanity. Other than that, he reasons as good or better than most people in the books. Sure, he is a little eccentric, but I don't think what he said about he and the dragon fighting it out since the beginnning of time was caused, nor influenced, by his "insanity."

 

Who are we to say that Ishy hasn't fought the Dragon since the beginning of time? Granted, Ishamael is only guessing, but Ishy has shown to be the only one who fully understand what the DO wants and still be on his side. No other forsaken can say that, and that is why they are not nae'blis.

 

It kind of continues the motif of duality, of light and darkness, like saidin and saidar, the DO and the Creator fight each other through proxies, Nae'blis and Dragon, fighting against each other, but working together to turn the wheel. Not working together in the conventional sense, of course, but by working against each other, they actually turn the wheel.

 

Think about what makes the Dragon so special: He is the soul chosen by the pattern to defeat the DO.

 

And then the Nae'blis: the soul chosen by the DO to defeat the Dragon.

 

By saying that the taint actually triggered the change in Age, you're saying that the Dark One is helping the Wheel of Time move in its intended course.  While that would be grandly ironic, I don't think it's the case.

 

Actually, believe it or not, I do think this is the case. The Creator made the wheel that way, counting on the DO's interference in events, and creating mechanisms to balance him out.

 

Now of course, the balance must be maintained for the Wheel to spin.

 

If the DO wins, well, you know what happens...

 

And of course, the DO can't be killed, so it is an endless struggle.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If there's any self-correcting mechanism here it is that RJ points out that it is not as simple as "Ok, we have a channeler, new age folks! There's a tad more things involved.

 

Apparently you and I read English very differently.  Since it is my native tongue, my area of educational expertise, and RJ's southern American English is my native dialect of that tongue, I'm going to stick with my interpretation.  When he sticks an "or at least" into the middle of that sentence, it is a qualification that alters the meaning of the first half of the sentence, giving the second half primary meaning.  Thats the phraseology used when the speaker (or writer) doesn't really like the way part of a sentence came out.  Its a caveat, a qualification, which means that interpreting the first half by itself is taking it out of context.

 

Well, since I don't believe channeling is going away anytime soon, nor do I believe that the introduction of wolfbrothers, seers, and sniffers could possibly affect society nearly as much as the taint on saidin, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

While I can live with that, I would point out one last time, from the author's mouth:

 

Min, and the sniffers, and wolfbrothers appearing are all highly indicative, you know. New abilities, for this Age, are appearing, and that in itself indicates great changes coming. Great changes underway. Min's abilities will not remain unique; we have already seen one wolfbrother besides Perrin and Elyas, though a pitiful soul who couldn't master his gift, and there will be other sniffers. The Age is changing. The Wheel never stands still.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

He specifically equates those new abilities with two things ... "great changes coming", and "The Age is changing."

 

So although you and Maj both think they won't make much difference ... RJ seems to think they will.

[Majsju]

Apparently you and I read English very differently.  Since it is my native tongue, my area of educational expertise, and RJ's southern American English is my native dialect of that tongue, I'm going to stick with my interpretation.  When he sticks an "or at least" into the middle of that sentence, it is a qualification that alters the meaning of the first half of the sentence, giving the second half primary meaning.  Thats the phraseology used when the speaker (or writer) doesn't really like the way part of a sentence came out.  Its a caveat, a qualification, which means that interpreting the first half by itself is taking it out of context.

 

granted, I am more familiar with real English than whatever dialects spoken in the southern US, I refuse to believe that your dialect(s) allow for such interpretations that it allows bringing in a concept that simply is not there.

 

So although you and Maj both think they won't make much difference ... RJ seems to think they will.

 

Does it now?

New abilities, for this Age, are appearing, and that in itself indicates great changes coming.

 

New abilities are indications that a new age is coming. They are not causing the new age to come. Because a new age is coming, these abilities become possible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK Maj.  We disagree.

[Majsju]

Well, if RJs own words ain't good enough for you, I suppose nothing i say would make any difference.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

Here's how I interpret this: The appearance of new abilities at either the end of the age before the AoL, or the AoL (of course, assuming that the AoL is actually a different age, but lets not go into that discussion here).

 

 

Now, I'm not sure I understand the stances of you two.

 

I get that Maj doesn't think the changes are as significant as losing the ability to channel, or the taint on saidin.

 

And RAW believes that they do. But what is all this about "self-correcting qualifier?"

 

Remember, there is no clear-cut line between the end of one age and the beginning of another. I would assume the Wheel methodically replaces it's threads with new ones, weaving in a different pattern. Sure, there are some events that might or might not occur. But the way I see it, the real and lasting change generally occurs by changes in social interactions that would be the result of new abilities being found...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, if RJs own words ain't good enough for you, I suppose nothing i say would make any difference.

 

Of course Maj.  My humblest apologies.  That is exactly what I am doing, and I thank you for pointing it out to me.  You are, of course, entirely correct.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

This is why, RAW, I think you need to make your position clear (Majsju too).

 

Im not sure what you are debating.

 

And I am wondering, from that quote by Maj, if you two don't actually believe the same thing.