Is the book Wheel of Time universe the LAST universe standing against the Dark One?

[Dedicated]

So, I had been celebrating (possibly unjustly) the cancellation of the TV series. Someone argued that the difference in the show can be chopped up to this being a new turning of the wheel, but I just think this is a cheap excuse for the creators to take creative liberties (possibly to the extent that they only read the cliff notes and never actually read the series).

 

And the more I thought about this angle of approach I remembered a part in the book series when Rand is seeing alternate versions of himself and he ultimately dies or gets turned to the dark side and the Dark One wins. And as death takes Rand or as he falls into darkness he hears the Dark One saying, "I win again Lews Therin" and then that is repeated over and over and over and over again. Does this mean that every other alternative universe has fallen to the Dark One and our story (the books) is the last universe standing? I mean, it makes sense because it makes the stakes super high right? It wouldn't really make sense that our Rand fails, but there is still another chance in another universe cause then why care about Rand's challenge?

 

If this is all true it just pisses me off even more. These people didn't bother to understand the source material the way the creators of The Expanse TV series did and they're trying to make excuse after excuse for screwing up. I'm convinced it was a cash grab from the start and there was no real earnest intention of making a good TV series. Just a cheap piece of crap they could crap out because they invested in the Ring's of Power and decided they could use those resources to ride on the coattails of another popular high-fantasy epic series. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

No, you have completely misunderstood. 

 

The lives he sees are nothing to with the turning of the Wheel. These are his Flicker universe selves. The sort of quantum where each different choice, chance plays out. So there are infinite Flicker worlds, though they become more weak the further from reality they go. 

 

There are two constants through these worlds. One is Tel'aran'rhiod, this goes through all of these. The other is that the Dark One is imprisoned in them all. If he is freed in one, he is freed on all. If he is imprisoned in one, he is imprisoned in them all. It is a paradox, though it questions if it would ever be physically possible to free him.

 

The turnings of the Wheel refer to the cyclical time, as opposed to linear. Time has been going on forever, and there are an infinite number of Third Ages in the past and an infinite number in the future. What differences there are, we don't know. Different people being the forsaken, different darkfriends, different details but same broad pattern as the Wheel demands balance and such things as ta'veren pull things about. 

 

In theory, Rand might lose the last battle, and the Pattern will correct. It is suggested that what Rand must not do is submit to the Dark One. Ishamael believes that for some reason this particular turning is special, that complete victory is possible, and that the Dark One can truly break free and break the Wheel. Is he right? Who knows, but it sets up the linear story so that readers and the characters don't just think that everything will be OK because time is cyclical isn't it? There can be no permanent victory or defeat. We never see the Dark Prophecies, but it doesn't really make sense that this Age would be different from any other turning. But it is necessary for the story to think it is a possibility. 

Edited June 3 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Dedicated]

21 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

No, you have completely misunderstood. 

 

While I won't pretend to have complete understanding I highly doubt I am as wrong as you suggest. The issue we have here is probably our respective understandings of how alternate timelines work. For example, in Rick and Morty the timeline we're watching Rick live in is actually a hypothetical (Rick refers to Beth and the kids as: hypothetical versions of his daughter and grandchildren). 

 

I still believe my interpretation of Rand's and Egwenes visions of alternate timelines being indicative of the DO having won in all other "hypothetical" timelines and the "hypothetical" timeline we're reading about in the books is the last one standing before the DO can break free, stop the wheel of time and recreate everything as it saw fit. 

[Turin Turambar]

10 minutes ago, Dedicated said:

 

While I won't pretend to have complete understanding I highly doubt I am as wrong as you suggest. The issue we have here is probably our respective understandings of how alternate timelines work. For example, in Rick and Morty the timeline we're watching Rick live in is actually a hypothetical (Rick refers to Beth and the kids as: hypothetical versions of his daughter and grandchildren). 

 

I still believe my interpretation of Rand's and Egwenes visions of alternate timelines being indicative of the DO having won in all other "hypothetical" timelines and the "hypothetical" timeline we're reading about in the books is the last one standing before the DO can break free, stop the wheel of time and recreate everything as it saw fit. 

I'm pretty sure you are wrong. I could swear that in the books it is clearly stated that if the Dark One fully escapes in any turning he would escape in all and break the wheel permanently.  Essentially ending existence. 

 

The failures you described where Rand is killed are NOT THE DO ACHIEVING TOTAL VICTORY. He needs The Dragon to break the world and release him into reality. Just killing the Dragon and dominating the world through his minions has happened numerous times and will happen again. The Pattern then responds and adjusts to move the timeline along.

 

Now faulty narration is a thing in the books, so who knows. I guess you can believe what you want, but I think your belief flies in the face of the actual facts.

[Turin Turambar]

21 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

In theory, Rand might lose the last battle, and the Pattern will correct. It is suggested that what Rand must not do is submit to the Dark One. Ishamael believes that for some reason this particular turning is special, that complete victory is possible, and that the Dark One can truly break free and break the Wheel. Is he right? Who knows, but it sets up the linear story so that readers and the characters don't just think that everything will be OK because time is cyclical isn't it? There can be no permanent victory or defeat. We never see the Dark Prophecies, but it doesn't really make sense that this Age would be different from any other turning. But it is necessary for the story to think it is a possibility.

Yes. This. In every turning Ishmael believes that this might be the time. It is what allows himself to commit so strongly to the Dark One's cause.

 

Ready for a wild possibility? The circular time exists in our world. It goes from the beginning to the ending of the universe. From the Big Bang until the universe collapses on itself and recreates itself in the next Big Bang.

[Dedicated]

The problem may be with my understanding of the many-world's hypothesis or whatever that hypothesis is trying to explain. After thinking about it, if there are infinite possibilities then there will always be one hypothetical where the DO stays imprisoned. 

 

So the stakes were never really that high. If our Rand failed there'd always be another Rand who was still fighting.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

You are confusing turnings of the Wheel and the Flickerverse, from my understanding. I'm not an infallible source of information, but I'm pretty sure of this. 

 

The Flickerverse are like quantum worlds where every alternate reality exists, but the further from the true reality they are the less real they are. 

 

Unreliable narrator notwithstanding, we are specifically told the Dark One being imprisoned is a constant in all worlds, one of only two. But even in worlds where the Trollocs win the Trollocs wars for example, that doesnt affect reality. There are worlds with every outcome except the Dark One breaking free. 

[Asthereal]

The parallel/alternate realities we see through the portalstones are never fully explored. I think Jordan figured out he bit off a bit more than he could chew even without exploring the insane consequences of diving deeply into something akin to the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. So yeah, what those realities are exactly we'll probably never know.

 

But my personal interpretation of the story is that the Dragon Reborn will never fail. Every turning of the Wheel he will succeed in sealing the Dark One back into his prison, and this pattern will repeat indefinitely, just as the Creator designed it to. Elan/Ishamael/Moridin was wrong to assume the Dark One has a theoretical chance to win. He doesn't. Each different turning of the Wheel will see slight variations in who what where exactly, but the main events will always play out as designed. Show or book, who dates who, mid-tier characters living or dying, anything can happen there, but the Ta'veren will do what they are meant to do. In my head-canon the alternate realities we see though the portalstones are "what ifs", but admittedly that's a bit weak considering the tightness of most of Jordans world building.

 

 

Edited June 4 by Asthereal
silly typo in Elan's name....

[SilentRoamer]

This is an interesting question and goes to the heart of Ishamaels predeterminate nihilism. Ishamael believes that because the Dark lord can infinitely attempt to break the wheel, that he eventually will, that the Dark One, is predetermined to win. 

However what Ishamael fails to understand is that if the Dark One has infinite attempts, alongside infinite turnings and hasn't already broken the Wheel then the Wheel can never be broken because he has already attempted, infinite times amongst infinite turnings. 

If the DO breaks the Wheel in any reality then all of Creation is undone, but in order to undo Creation the Dragon must be moved to the Dark. Rand acts as a creative force to balance the destruction - the destruction being that either the wholly Good or wholly Evil paradigms are not true to reality. 

Considering Jordans background I do think that branch MWI with a core timeline is what he had in mind. Ishamael was right, he was just right in the wrong direction, predeterminism does exist to some extent in Wheel of Time. 

[Sabio]

I always saw the alternate worlds as the pattern's failsafe device, so there will always be a pattern etc since there are so many alternate realities.  If Ishy got a hold of a powerful device and went around balefiring everyone in reality 1 there are other places where people still live.  Rand's flickers if I remember right involved his never declaring himself the dragon so he isn't there to oppose the DO.  if every decision you make can cause a different reality then it makes sense there are places the DO won.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think Ishamael makes a stronger argument than Zen Rand. In circular time, doing better the next time makes zero difference. As that just means other people have to do worse to come back to the same starting point again. 

 

Ishamael makes a solid point though. In the Third Age and every Third Age an infinite number of Borderlanders will be abducted, including infants and children of all ages to be sexually violated, eaten and sacrificed to make Thakandar blades. Nothing Rand can do will ever stop this. It is eternal suffering, for what could be argued little point. This is what Ishamael wants to stop, as the Light can never win to make the suffering worthwhile.