The Show Has Been Cancelled

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Goathill said:

As far as this forum goes neither have you.

 

That does not make someone's opinion less.

No one said it made someone’s opinion less. 

[Kaleb]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I’ve hidden the last few posts as this thread is becoming unduly personal. 

Awww, I thought my reply to Loose was pretty tame, and most of it was generalized. You make the call though.

[Kaleb]

12 hours ago, Loose Theremin said:

 

" One of the main themes, if not the main theme, of the books is unreliable narrator. "

 

That is not true. It is not even a minor theme let alone a main, or the main theme.

What do you think is the point of the first paragraph of the first chapter of every one of the books?

[fearbrog]

On 9/29/2025 at 8:53 PM, Kaleb said:

I heartily agree that there are so many ways to love the series: the "hard" magic system, the military details, the deep lore, the philosophical motivations for various cultures and characters, the relationships between characters, ... There's so much, 

There's so much, but not enough for somebody. Better create new characters and storylines because evidently it books were lacking. 

 

"the "hard" magic system" is too hard, everyone superhealer now

 

"the relationships between characters" is changed because character must be changed, who needs book's Rand and his relationships, show has something better: different love triangle, this time with Egwene and Lanfear. What, Rand in books have enough will and conviction no to fall for seductress? Can't have that, now he's fool and tricked by forsaken over and over.

 

"the brisk and vivid storytelling for so many important scenes" so many it's shame writers had to cut many of them, like Rand meeting with Morgase, or Tarwin's gap, or battle in the sky of Falme. At least show included such iconic scenes as Stepin's funeral, or Nyn's sword training, or Egwene healing of Nyn.

[Kaleb]

15 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

There's so much, but not enough for somebody. Better create new characters and storylines because evidently it books were lacking. 

 

"the "hard" magic system" is too hard, everyone superhealer now

 

"the relationships between characters" is changed because character must be changed, who needs book's Rand and his relationships, show has something better: different love triangle, this time with Egwene and Lanfear. What, Rand in books have enough will and conviction no to fall for seductress? Can't have that, now he's fool and tricked by forsaken over and over.

 

"the brisk and vivid storytelling for so many important scenes" so many it's shame writers had to cut many of them, like Rand meeting with Morgase, or Tarwin's gap, or battle in the sky of Falme. At least show included such iconic scenes as Stepin's funeral, or Nyn's sword training, or Egwene healing of Nyn.

"it's not the REAL story" /yawn

[Mailman]

9 hours ago, Kaleb said:

What do you think is the point of the first paragraph of the first chapter of every one of the books?

I don't think that you can really describe this as an unreliable narrator. 

 

Firstly the information in it is correct.

Secondly even if you are examining it in relation to the act of not being able to remember things long in the past that in itself does not make it false.

 

These openings are purely to establish the cyclical nature of the world and the vast scale of the time that they represent.

 

I do not believe even if this was to be true that it makes unreliable narrator the main theme or even a core theme of the series.

[Kaleb]

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

I don't think that you can really describe this as an unreliable narrator. 

 

Firstly the information in it is correct.

Secondly even if you are examining it in relation to the act of not being able to remember things long in the past that in itself does not make it false.

 

These openings are purely to establish the cyclical nature of the world and the vast scale of the time that they represent.

 

I do not believe even if this was to be true that it makes unreliable narrator the main theme or even a core theme of the series.

Revisiting the wiki page on "unreliable narrator" I think it's fair to concede that the specific device is a minor theme throughout the series, it's used mostly for humor in things like the mid-series Nynaeve chapters where she constantly and comically reads people and situations in extreme ways. It's also right there related to the First Oath and everything Aes Sedai say, all of the Forsaken's speeches and interactions, and everything characters do in Daes Dae'mar, and many other discussions of false information that characters believe, but as "unreliable narrator" specifically focuses on the narrative voice, I'd agree the beginning paragraphs aren't exactly that.

 

They are indicative of the major theme related to truth, defining the truth and whether it's possible to even know the truth. I'm not enough of a literature scholar to pick one correct term, but "misinformation" is probably the closest I can think of, and that is a core theme of the series that the Chapter 1 recitation is part of. It's not only about the vast span of time, the words chosen are specifically about the decay of knowledge. 

Edited October 2 by Kaleb

[fearbrog]

15 hours ago, Kaleb said:

"it's not the REAL story" /yawn

Well, it's not. It Fix Fic based on WoT books

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On 10/1/2025 at 3:24 AM, Loose Theremin said:

 

" One of the main themes, if not the main theme, of the books is unreliable narrator. "

 

That is not true. It is not even a minor theme let alone a main, or the main theme.

 

Of course there was an objective reason to hate Rafe's show. He trampled all over Robert Jordan's story and changed it in fundamental ways to further his own ideological agenda. And in doing so he turned it into a vehicle for his own personal propaganda. And that was an absolutely hateful thing to do.

Random thought: why does my autocorrect offer the options of "So", "I" and "Cucumber" to start? 

 

On topic: you really don't have a clue, do you? Unreliable narrator is hard coded into the story, the Prophecy, the in-world stories based on real events, becoming legends, fading to myths... It is explicitly mentioned throughout the books, over and over again. 

 

Ideological agenda? I see obviously missed that gender relations was also a major theme in the books. 

 

And you take it upon yourself to be the true voice of the all fans of the books. Making an adaption of the books is hateful? That is so nonsensical. You are the guy that claims Jordan did a disservice to his fans by cashing in and churning out pointless filler instead of finishing the book when he was terminally ill. And you call other people hateful just because they don't align with your narrow and inflexible view of the world. 

 

Absolutely charming. 

[Mailman]

29 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Random thought: why does my autocorrect offer the options of "So", "I" and "Cucumber" to start? 

 

On topic: you really don't have a clue, do you? Unreliable narrator is hard coded into the story, the Prophecy, the in-world stories based on real events, becoming legends, fading to myths... It is explicitly mentioned throughout the books, over and over again. 

 

Interested in how the Prophecy could possibly be considered an unreliable narrator especially considering how they all seem to come true. If you are giving the prophecies the definition of a narrator, which i am not sure you can, they seem to be incredibly reliable.

 

People forgetting knowledge over millennia also does not meet the definition of the unreliable narrator.

Edited October 2 by Mailman

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul? Rand setting philosophers to work on them and reading untold translations and commentaries? 

 

Brigit talking about her past lives and how they were reported on stories? 

 

While I get you can argue whether this falls technically as unreliable narrator (as in the literary device) I'd say the things like the difficulty of interpreting prophecy and foretelling (Andor's Royal Line?), people using their own takes on the situation (Niall's beliefs about the Final Battle), Mat being Odin and Perrin Thor/Perun, Seanchan beliefs about Artur Hawkwing, etc., I would argue that the message being lost, corrupted or misunderstood, especially over time, is probably the most common theme in the books. It is the only real implication of cyclical time that is explored as far as I can see. 

Edited October 2 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade
Autocorrect so hates Artur Hawkwing's name, lol

[raywhit]

The TV show annoyed me.  I read the books so many times - whenever a new book came out, I started from the beginning again.

To me it felt like whoever had adapted the book to the TV show had tried their hand at speed-reading for the first time. Ever...  And failed.

They failed and made it up as they went along and got characters completely wrong.

I think they cannot continue with the TV series because they have messed up so badly in the first three.  Now they've tried speed-reading more and realized they should not have killed off Siuan Sanche as she still plays an important part further in the books.

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul? Rand setting philosophers to work on them and reading untold translations and commentaries? 

 

Brigit talking about her past lives and how they were reported on stories? 

 

While I get you can argue whether this falls technically as unreliable narrator (as in the literary device) I'd say the things like the difficulty of interpreting prophecy and foretelling (Andor's Royal Line?), people using their own takes on the situation (Niall's beliefs about the Final Battle), Mat being Odin and Perrin Thor/Perun, Seanchan beliefs about Artur Hawkwing, etc., I would argue that the message being lost, corrupted or misunderstood, especially over time, is probably the most common theme in the books. It is the only real implication of cyclical time that is explored as far as I can see. 

An argument on the meaning of a prophecy does not make it an unreliable narrator. It is the same as a battle plan being wrong does not make it one either. And none of this changes the fact that the prophecies themselves are remarkably accurate.

 

You seem to be asking for a list instead of a prophecy and anything short of that makes the prophecy an unreliable narrator. 

 

Mr. Rand Al'Thor born Dragonmount adopted by Tam Al'Thor living in two rivers for 18 years before becoming The Dragon and eventually bleeding on the rock outside Shayol Gul before fighting the Dark One/Ishmael is hardly going to work as a prophecy.

 

Nialls belief in what the final battle is simply him being wrong and not an unreliable narrator as we are aware at the time he is thinking it that he is wrong.

 

Odin and Thor have nothing to do with anything in this conversation even if they are the inspiration for the characters in some manner.

 

I would argue that the ability to try again and too do better and continue to try and do our best when we come back is a far more clear theme especially when viewed during Rand's final battle with Ishy, also within his fight with Ishy and the Dark One is the fact that they want to break this pattern and stop the wheel forever.

[Loose Theremin]

21 hours ago, Kaleb said:

What do you think is the point of the first paragraph of the first chapter of every one of the books?

 

What do YOU think is the point of the last word of every paragraph of every one of the books ?

 

[Loose Theremin]

21 hours ago, Kaleb said:

"it's not the REAL story" /yawn

 

You may not think it's a big deal that Rafe substituted the story for his own "re-telling" but it is arrogant in the extreme to dismiss other people's legitimate concerns about it with a yawn.

[Loose Theremin]

5 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Random thought: why does my autocorrect offer the options of "So", "I" and "Cucumber" to start? 

 

On topic: you really don't have a clue, do you? Unreliable narrator is hard coded into the story, the Prophecy, the in-world stories based on real events, becoming legends, fading to myths... It is explicitly mentioned throughout the books, over and over again. 

 

Ideological agenda? I see obviously missed that gender relations was also a major theme in the books. 

 

And you take it upon yourself to be the true voice of the all fans of the books. Making an adaption of the books is hateful? That is so nonsensical. You are the guy that claims Jordan did a disservice to his fans by cashing in and churning out pointless filler instead of finishing the book when he was terminally ill. And you call other people hateful just because they don't align with your narrow and inflexible view of the world. 

 

Absolutely charming. 

 

No unreliable narrator is not " hard coded" into the story at all.

 

Robert Jordan had no ideological agenda in the way that Rafe does. Robert Jordan was writing about the battle of the sexes, the male female heterosexual kind, in a humourous way.

 

I don't "take it upon myself to be the true voice of the all fans of the books". Where do you get this nonsense from ? I am expressing my personal opinion here and that is all. Many people have similar opinions to mine about the show but I certainly don't imagine myself as talking for them.

 

You misrepresent people don't you. I didn't say that making an adaptation of the books was hateful. I said that Rafe's adaptation was hateful because he replaced Robert Jordan's story with his own as a vehicle for his own ideological beliefs. Do you see the difference ? Context is everything. But if you leave it out then you can make people look bad.

 

Yes I am the guy who "claims" that Robert Jordan treated his fans badly by larding his books with filler because that is what he did. And you are suggesting that he couldn't help it because he was dying from a terminal illness ? What is your evidence that his writing was affected by the illness ? And if you have any when did the decline in his health start to affect his writing ? He died in 2007 but ' Path of Daggers ' was published in 1998 so he would have been writing that book some 10 years before he died and that book was full of filler.

 

Edited October 2 by Loose Theremin
Revision

[Kaleb]

2 hours ago, Loose Theremin said:

 

You may not think it's a big deal that Rafe substituted the story for his own "re-telling" but it is arrogant in the extreme to dismiss other people's legitimate concerns about it with a yawn.

It's a yawn because it's been said so many times on this very thread, let alone this forum. Everyone knows that the show tells a very different story, some people are very upset by that, some people are interested in that. I'm done engaging with the people who are very upset and can't think of anything more interesting to say.

[Skipp]

Oh wow.  I don't know whether to feel glad to see discussion popping up here or if I should be disappointed seeing the same old argument we have been having since the cast was first announced.

 

I love this series.  I read it annually for nearly 20 years before I stopped reading in general.  I love the TV series.  It got me to actively engage in an online community for the first time ever(the horror).

 

Everyone agrees that Wheel of Time can not be adapted word for word, page for page to the screen.  There are pages and pages of opinions of what people would focus on, what they would cut.  More commonly I hear people would cut the or significantly shorten the  Faile kidnapping  and Elayne succession plots.  With Perrin being my favourite character in the series and both Faile and Elayne are top 5 consideration I don't agree with those opinions.  

 

BUT those people's interpretations and adaptation choices are valid if they ever got the chance to put the show to screen.  Rafe's version is no less valid because of "forced ideology" as if one's ideology doesn't influence their own interpretations and potential adaptations.  His life experiences gave him a different view of the series than many, he got to focus on those as those are what seemed important to him.  

 

My second favourite book series is The Expanse and people love to compare its TV series to WoT's.  But even the Expanse made massive changes similar in scope to WoT.  They introduce Avasarala  and her supporting cast in season 1 and give her a significant plot line despite not showing up until book 2.  They introduce extended drama among the main crew several times for TV reasons I imagine.  They change the way the protomolecule spreads in book 1.  The standout TV character Drummer is an amalgamation of at least 3 book characters and Drummer herself is a minor character AT BEST in the books.  Captain Klaes Ashford is unrecognizable to his book counterpart and to the benefit of the show.  But maybe this is all easier to stomach because the book writers were the guiding hand for the show.  Or possibly people here and on WoT reddit are less invested in those books so they don't notice as much.

 

 

Well I am rambling now so I will end with.  Just be good to other people.  We all seem to love the books but we also all love the books in different ways.

[Raal Gurniss]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

Well I am rambling now so I will end with.  Just be good to other people.  We all seem to love the books but we also all love the books in different ways.

You would think so but...Well so many of the TV fans either didn't like the books anywhere near as much or had not even read them.

 

Just stating facts, it is what it is before anyone has a go.

[Skipp]

11 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

You would think so but...Well so many of the TV fans either didn't like the books anywhere near as much or had not even read them.

 

Just stating facts, it is what it is before anyone has a go.

Is that a bad thing?  That some people enjoy the show more than the books or were introduced to the show who had never read the books?

 

I appreciate all the people who got introduced purely through the TV show.  Many of those people also hopped into the books.  Not all of them enjoyed them but more people attempting to read the series is better in my opinion.

[Kaleb]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I appreciate all the people who got introduced purely through the TV show.  Many of those people also hopped into the books.  Not all of them enjoyed them but more people attempting to read the series is better in my opinion.

Exactly! Do we have such a brittle fandom that there is only one true way to enter it?

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

I just watch on youtube Daniel Greene's Wheel of Time book rewind and highly recommend for anyone that wants a replacement for the show. It leaves on some story line, but if is the story we would have gotten in the show I think it would have done a lot better. Please note its in two parts and they are very long.

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

On 10/3/2025 at 4:36 PM, Skipp said:

Is that a bad thing?  That some people enjoy the show more than the books or were introduced to the show who had never read the books?

 

I appreciate all the people who got introduced purely through the TV show.  Many of those people also hopped into the books.  Not all of them enjoyed them but more people attempting to read the series is better in my opinion.

As I said, it is what it is, good/bad wasn't part of what I said.

 

But I would say if you haven't viewed both then its rather more tricky to gauge which is more preferable/the better version.

 

 

[WoTwasThat]

On 10/2/2025 at 7:42 PM, Skipp said:

Everyone agrees that Wheel of Time cannot be adapted word for word, page for page to the screen.  There are pages and pages of opinions of what people would focus on, what they would cut.  More commonly I hear people would cut the or significantly shorten the  Faile kidnapping  and Elayne succession plots.  With Perrin being my favourite character in the series and both Faile and Elayne are top 5 consideration I don't agree with those opinions.  

 

BUT those people's interpretations and adaptation choices are valid if they ever got the chance to put the show to screen.  Rafe's version is no less valid because of "forced ideology" as if one's ideology doesn't influence their own interpretations and potential adaptations.  His life experiences gave him a different view of the series than many, he got to focus on those as those are what seemed important to him.

There is a big difference between cutting things and just making stuff up or dramatically changing things. I was a big proponent of cutting things and changing some things that, in my opinion, seriously bogged down the latter half of the series. I would have axed Valan Luca’s circus, shortened the Faile captivity (and that would not have hurt Perrin’s character - it would have freed him to do more interesting things), WAY shortened the Andoran succession plot, and probably have axed “Seanchan Part 3” / Tuon completely. I also would have cleaned up Rand’s love quadrangle by painting Elayne as the high school infatuation that is was - not real love.

 

The problem is that Rafe changed so many things at the beginning, when the series was much tighter / better. The decision to plot Season 1 as a “who is the Dragon mystery” including females was a DISASTER from which the show never really recovered. So was putting too much focus, too soon, on too many Aes Sedai.

 

Book 1 was the easiest adaptation and almost reads like a screen play at times. Relatively little internal monologue - most of the foundational lore and magic system is set out in easily digestible spoken narrative. And Rafe just mangled it so so badly. 

[Skipp]

19 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

There is a big difference between cutting things and just making stuff up or dramatically changing things. I was a big proponent of cutting things and changing some things that, in my opinion, seriously bogged down the latter half of the series. I would have axed Valan Luca’s circus, shortened the Faile captivity (and that would not have hurt Perrin’s character - it would have freed him to do more interesting things), WAY shortened the Andoran succession plot, and probably have axed “Seanchan Part 3” / Tuon completely. I also would have cleaned up Rand’s love quadrangle by painting Elayne as the high school infatuation that is was - not real love.

 

The problem is that Rafe changed so many things at the beginning, when the series was much tighter / better. The decision to plot Season 1 as a “who is the Dragon mystery” including females was a DISASTER from which the show never really recovered. So was putting too much focus, too soon, on too many Aes Sedai.

 

Book 1 was the easiest adaptation and almost reads like a screen play at times. Relatively little internal monologue - most of the foundational lore and magic system is set out in easily digestible spoken narrative. And Rafe just mangled it so so badly. 

 

 

He was also changing things with the thought of future seasons in mind and how much they were going to have to condense.