S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[Elder_Haman]

  On 5/20/2025 at 7:36 PM, Glasfeu said:

but their job was to devellop and explain this properly

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Right. But this goes back to the fact that you don’t have time to do everything. The Wolf Dream is a difficult concept on the page, much less to put on screen. 
 

The medium prevents us from being able to be directly in Perrin’s head the way we are in the books. So they did an okay job of establishing something about it in S2 and have given us glimpses of the heightened senses and so forth. 
 

I think the wolf dream needs basically its own season to be laid out. There needs to be a plot reason for it. So while I would have liked more of it, I just don’t know where they would put it. 

[Skipp]

  On 5/20/2025 at 8:04 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Right. But this goes back to the fact that you don’t have time to do everything. The Wolf Dream is a difficult concept on the page, much less to put on screen. 
 

The medium prevents us from being able to be directly in Perrin’s head the way we are in the books. So they did an okay job of establishing something about it in S2 and have given us glimpses of the heightened senses and so forth. 
 

I think the wolf dream needs basically its own season to be laid out. There needs to be a plot reason for it. So while I would have liked more of it, I just don’t know where they would put it. 

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And since Perrin's arc is so loaded in tSR and then goes no where until the Shaido Kidnapping arc I can see why the showrunners would want to split it up a bit. 

 

Perrin's time in season 3 already felt rushed.  Can you imagine how it would have felt if they tried to add Slayer and the Wolfdream?  I will happily take that as his potential season 4 or 5 arc if need be.

[Kaleb]

  On 5/20/2025 at 8:27 PM, Skipp said:

Perrin's time in season 3 already felt rushed.  Can you imagine how it would have felt if they tried to add Slayer and the Wolfdream?  I will happily take that as his potential season 4 or 5 arc if need be.

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Totally agreed, I think that's what they're planning and I think they could pay it off really well.

[Glasfeu]

  On 5/20/2025 at 8:04 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Right. But this goes back to the fact that you don’t have time to do everything. The Wolf Dream is a difficult concept on the page, much less to put on screen. 
 

The medium prevents us from being able to be directly in Perrin’s head the way we are in the books. So they did an okay job of establishing something about it in S2 and have given us glimpses of the heightened senses and so forth. 
 

I think the wolf dream needs basically its own season to be laid out. There needs to be a plot reason for it. So while I would have liked more of it, I just don’t know where they would put it. 

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Lol, I feel bad always disagreeing with you, but no, I disagree.

 

Or rather, yes, properly developing the wolf dream is indeed difficult. But there was a possibility for the show to introduce Perrin's difficulties controlling himself when he is near a wolf with just a few scenes. Sure, unlike in the book, we can't just know about his state of mind, but it's far from being impossible to show. And really, that's their job.

 

Again, I remember watching Hopper's death a second time back then because I was confused about what happened. The show seems to indicate that the reason behind Perrin's anger is Hopper's death, not the feeling he shares with the other wolves here. Also, there aren't any other wolves present; there's that, too.

[Kaleb]

  On 5/20/2025 at 7:28 PM, Glasfeu said:

 

Yep, that's exactly my point. Scenarists can write whatever they want, but at the end of the day, there are some expectations they will have to face. It's perfectly fine not to meet them... as long as they accept the risk to have some negative reaction from their spectator.

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I think Judkins has been pretty upfront and realistic about his expectations of negative reactions from some portion of the readership. I think a lot of it is unavoidable when making an adaptation of such a dense and beloved work as this, I remember being pretty upset about several aspects of the LOTR movies when they came out. (The one I still stand by is that scene in Moria where Aragorn tells Frodo to "lean forward", it's too campy!)

 

  On 5/20/2025 at 7:28 PM, Glasfeu said:

Hmm, the importance for me isn't whether those elements are in the TV show or not. It's about their role in the story and what they are replacing if they aren't there.

 

Let's take the Aelfinn. They are central in the book concerning Mat evolution.

 

- If there aren't there, but the scenarist proposes another element to bring the same result, I'm fine with it.

- If they aren't there, but it doesn't matter because Mat evolution is completely different, I'm also fine with that.

- If they aren't there, but we got magically the same evolution with Mat, even though that doesn't make any sense, then yes, I have a problem.

- If they aren't there, and the scenarist aren't proposing anything with Mat instead, then yes, I have a problem.

 

Of course, I'm exaggerating here, but I feel that Rand, Perrin, and Mat sometimes get pretty close to the last two options.

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Well, and then there's the options related to If They ARE There, and whether or not that is satisfactory. Show Mat is full of problems compared to Book Mat, most due to all the rewrites when the first Mat actor left the show in the middle of filming. I think they've recovered and put him in just about the right space as a character by the end of S3, but the damage to his show arc this far is real. I didn't like the pairing with Min in S2, but I struggle to think of other ways to get him to Falme from his disappearance in S1, none that I can think of really seem any more satisfying.

 

  On 5/20/2025 at 7:28 PM, Glasfeu said:

Well, that's where we disagree. My problem isn't that every character is properly developed early on. It's that Rand, Perrin, and Mat's story is negatively impacted, and that wasn't a fatality, it was the writer's choice. Was it easy to properly develop every character? Nope, it wasn't. But it seems to me they made some specific choice concerning the story they wanted to develop correctly and the one they wanted to rush. Again, they have the right to do it. But then, we return to my first point: they have to face the expectation people have, and the negative reaction some will have.

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I think the S1 Dragon mystery was a bad choice that led them to give early Egwene and Nynaeve more power moments in addition to character moments. And we got almost no power moments from Rand, though I really liked a lot of the character ones we did get: angry at Moiraine after the first Ba'alzamon dream, the banter with Mat on the road, the pushing his friends away argument in Fal Dara. I would have liked to see more character development than the TV show had the time to devote with all of them, but I think as a book reader it's easy to feel like the balance shifted away from Rand because in fact - as a matter of word count - it did, and it had to. We got way more of him in the early books, and so the absence is palpable because we know him in that part of the story. Especially for those of us who've re-read those early books so many times, it just doesn't feel right.

 

 

 

[Glasfeu]

  Quote

I think Judkins has been pretty upfront and realistic about his expectations of negative reactions from some portion of the readership. I think a lot of it is unavoidable when making an adaptation of such a dense and beloved work as this, I remember being pretty upset about several aspects of the LOTR movies when they came out. (The one I still stand by is that scene in Moria where Aragorn tells Frodo to "lean forward", it's too campy!)

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I honestly don't know. I didn't follow that much what was said in the interview and stuff like that. As I said, with the show's choice, I understand why some book readers are upset. And there's a lot I disagree with. That being said, I can also appreciate the courage the scenarists have to propose the change they have. The easy solution would have been just to follow the book as much as possible, they chose to bring their own vision. I can respect that.

 

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Well, and then there's the options related to If They ARE There, and whether or not that is satisfactory. Show Mat is full of problems compared to Book Mat, most due to all the rewrites when the first Mat actor left the show in the middle of filming. I think they've recovered and put him in just about the right space as a character by the end of S3, but the damage to his show arc this far is real. I didn't like the pairing with Min in S2, but I struggle to think of other ways to get him to Falme from his disappearance in S1, none that I can think of really seem any more satisfying.

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Hmm, I always had some doubts concerning how much the actor's leaving has impacted Mat's story. Oh, I don't doubt there was a negative impact, but with all the problems I have with Rand and Perrin's storyline, I have some doubt I would have liked Mat story, even without the problems the show has met with the actor. But of course, there is no way to know for sure, really.

 

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I think the S1 Dragon mystery was a bad choice that led them to give early Egwene and Nynaeve more power moments in addition to character moments. And we got almost no power moments from Rand, though I really liked a lot of the character ones we did get: angry at Moiraine after the first Ba'alzamon dream, the banter with Mat on the road, the pushing his friends away argument in Fal Dara. I would have liked to see more character development than the TV show had the time to devote with all of them, but I think as a book reader it's easy to feel like the balance shifted away from Rand because in fact - as a matter of word count - it did, and it had to. We got way more of him in the early books, and so the absence is palpable because we know him in that part of the story. Especially for those of us who've re-read those early books so many times, it just doesn't feel right.

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I also have some reservations about the whole dragon mystery. I feel it did bring some interesting elements to Season 1, but at the same time, it came with a heavy price for the whole show.

 

That being said, my main problem with the way they have treated Rand is that some key elements of his story are missing. For example, book 1 ends with Rand canalising with the Eye of the World, saving the Shienar army.

 

We understand why the Dragon Reborn is so important in this world. We learn in quite a spectacular way that, yes, Rand can use the One Power. One of the main points of the story, how fate has been written far in advance and is deeply connected to Rand, is shown when we understand that the Eye of the World was left here, in this place, several thousand years ago, to be used by Rand at this exact moment to help against the Dark One.

 

Now, as I said, it's okay for the show to propose something different. But what did they do instead? We learn that Rand can use the One Power with a flashback while he's shooting some arrows. The notion of fate isn't mentioned, the Dragon Reborn didn't left any impact in the war with the Shienar, and the biggest revelation Rand have is that it's not okay to have a baby with Egwenne if she doesn't want to... *sigh*.

 

That's the main problem I have with Rand story, it really seems to me the scenarist didn't want to present Rabd the same way the book did, which is fine. Except that they didn't have much to propose instead.

 

 

[Jaccsen]

  On 5/19/2025 at 8:10 PM, Elder_Haman said:

That was the only point I was arguing. I’m glad you and I agree that the quality improved. 
We can agree to disagree on the rest. Although, I would say “the (apparent) death of Loial”. Like it or hate it, if we don’t see a corpse, we can’t be sure a character is dead.

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I am glad you and others are enjoying the show. My main point is that from everything I read here, I would continue to dislike and be frustrated by the show. I love Wheel of Time and these writers version of the story is not my cup of tea.

 

I have been told by a few folks here and in other places that I should watch it because how else will more WoT stuff get made. I probably would have suffered through it 20 years ago. I mean, I watched the entirety of the Battlestar Galactica remake hoping it would get better. I just feel like we should have gotten something far better and I cannot settle for something I would not enjoy.

 

If folks love it, then I am happy for them, but I will not be surprised if it gets canceled.

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

I hated the whole dragon mystery and thought it wasted time/story line. Every non-reader I recommended the show to figured it out by episode 3. While I know some people liked it, I considered it a waste of time. I believe this was a studio decision, not the production team’s.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 5/21/2025 at 3:08 PM, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I hated the whole dragon mystery and thought it wasted time/story line. Every non-reader I recommended the show to figured it out by episode 3. While I know some people liked it, I considered it a waste of time. I believe this was a studio decision, not the production team’s.

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Me too. S1 really should have had a two plot arc; The “A” plot should have been a suspense/thriller/chase mostly mirroring Book 1; the “B” plot should have been the Tower capturing Logain. 
 

And there was no need for these plots to overlap until Rand sees Logain captured and stilled. 

[Pumbaa]

Once again, final episode is weakest of the whole season.

 

While S3 is much better than S1 & S2, I'm afraid damage has be done that can not be rectified. So much potential is wasted on this show and it makes me sad - no one I know is watching this or talk about it.

[SilentRoamer]

  On 5/21/2025 at 3:08 PM, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I hated the whole dragon mystery and thought it wasted time/story line. Every non-reader I recommended the show to figured it out by episode 3. While I know some people liked it, I considered it a waste of time. I believe this was a studio decision, not the production team’s.

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It was really, really stupid, it ignored all of the Prophecies of the Dragon, ignored that only men can channel Saidin and therefore go mad, just contradicted so much lore in the opening gambit for no good reason... 

Edited May 22 by SilentRoamer

[nsmallw]

I adored Perrin and Faile’s relationship, the actress made me love Faile where I thought that would NEVER happen. LOL  Perrin was incredible in episode 8 but I wish he’d had more development at the leader of the Two Rivers. I feel the writers missed golden opportunities to show him earning the leadership of Emond’s Field by leading people to come to Emond’s Field from outlying farms for mutual protection etc and leading attacks on Trollocs, who were supposedly a real threat by attacking the Two Rivers, farms etc but we never saw any indication of such attacks and thus urgency for everyone to come to the town was never established

 

Also, I wish Perrin had wolf dreams and begun establishing the animosity between him and Slayer. I know the limits of time and number of episodes stopped many such things from being established but a scene at the end of the season showing Slayer could have been done.