Bonding and the Madness

[Safia al-Maaz]

I am rereading the series and I was wondering...

 

Would bonding a male channeler have any effect on the madness they contract from the taint?  In the AoL they didn't have bonds, so they didn't have another person in their heads.  Do you think that would effect how a person acts towards their bondee if they go mad?  Do you think they would remember who the person was?  Rand has described the bond as the most natural thing in the world, as if it had always been there, as if life had always been that way.  If he went mad, would he remember that hurting one of his women would hurt him as well?  Would their emotions effect his actions?

 

Feel free to tear this apart, it's only a stray thought.

[RobertAlexWillis]

My first instinct would be to say probably not ... but I don't think we have enough information to say for certain one way or the other.  After all, there is no record of any male channeler being bonded before "current" events, and since saidin is cleansed, none of them are going to get any worse.

 

In the sense that I personally think the taint simply amplifies and unleashes psychoses already potentially present in every human, then, if the Warder Bond presents a stabilizing influence, then it could help psychologically.  I don't think, however, that the actual weave would have prevented the action of the taint on the mind of the male channeler, and ultimately, would prove insufficient.  Thats pure opinion though.

[shane5408]

My first instinct would be to say probably not ... but I don't think we have enough information to say for certain one way or the other.  After all, there is no record of any male channeler being bonded before "current" events, and since saidin is cleansed, none of them are going to get any worse.

 

In the sense that I personally think the taint simply amplifies and unleashes psychoses already potentially present in every human, then, if the Warder Bond presents a stabilizing influence, then it could help psychologically.  I don't think, however, that the actual weave would have prevented the action of the taint on the mind of the male channeler, and ultimately, would prove insufficient.  Thats pure opinion though.

 

i agree with RobertAlexWillis,

 

The bond was not used in the AOL so its difficult to make conclusions however from what i remember of rand describing it it feels like oil being mixed with water, the two never quite combine and the oil always rises to the top, in this way any male channeler (before cleansing of saidin) feels the taint in this way and i think it only really affects the physical person who is channeling.  though those bonded to him have a connection to him, because it is a mental one i do not think it the taint would really affect them physically. 

[Luckers]

There is also the issue of backlash. Concider RJ's comments about the bonding of Myrdraal; clearly the mental state of the bondee is an issue.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Hmm, I never thought of a myrdraal bonding in comparison...

 

But does anybody think that the emotions of the bondee flowing into the mad person's mind would affect what he does?  Would he remember that if he hurts that person he will be hurting himself?

[Majsju]

I'm not sure using myrdraal as a comparisment can be that useful. Keep in mind that they are not human, which should make a huge difference.

 

 

[Orange Fescue]

There is also the issue of backlash. Concider RJ's comments about the bonding of Myrdraal; clearly the mental state of the bondee is an issue.

What did RJ say about bonding Myrdraal? I'm afraid I missed it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Week 9 Question: If it's possible to bond a Myrddraal like a Warder? For one of the Black Ajah or a Forsaken, for example? What happens then to such a person?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It would be possible, but hardly wise because of the sharing of emotions. It is exceedingly likely that anyone who had a knot of Myrddraal emotions in his or her head, even to the small degree caused by the Warder bond, would very soon go insane. Myrddraal may contain human stock, but they are definitely not human. I don't think even Padan Fain could survive that without going madder than he already is.

 

From: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 , Question 9, Questions from December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004

[Safia al-Maaz]

But does anybody think that the emotions of the bondee flowing into the mad person's mind would affect what he does?  Would he remember that if he hurts that person he will be hurting himself?

 

Well?? ???

[RobertAlexWillis]

But does anybody think that the emotions of the bondee flowing into the mad person's mind would affect what he does?  Would he remember that if he hurts that person he will be hurting himself?

 

Probably not.  Terminal insanity tends to remove that kind of cognizance altogether, eventually.

[Luckers]

I'm not sure using myrdraal as a comparisment can be that useful. Keep in mind that they are not human, which should make a huge difference.

 

Maj, i disagree. RJ states that it is their emotions that make bonding Myrdraal so unpleasent; in them, as you say, it is the nature of their alien, bloodthirsty mental state the is the danger, in the insane men who can channel, it was a different matter; but no less alien.

 

The importance of the comment, i believe, is in the way RJ highlights that the emotional transfer is significant in the question of bonding someone with an unpleasent mental state.

[lou]

But does anybody think that the emotions of the bondee flowing into the mad person's mind would affect what he does?  Would he remember that if he hurts that person he will be hurting himself?

 

Well?? ???

 

there is no reliable answer to that question that is not just speculation. this bond did not exist at the time that male channelers were allowed to exist as such.

 

[Safia al-Maaz]

This is true, but normally some people come up with some pretty good ideas that ease my curiousity to a bearable state.

[lou]

lol.......it will just start a fight....

[Safia al-Maaz]

Hahah well that would be just as interesting  :P

[GrandpaG]

Let's say that I am Mazrim Taim, the super darkfriend semi-Chosen guy.  I bond Elaida.  She's a very nasty person besides being a usurper so she won't mind me knowing what her feelings are.  And, she will gain super stamina from the bond.  Now.  The taint has not yet been cleansed.  But it doesn't matter to me because I have a heavy black chord running from my back directly to the dark side of the force.  If I go crazy and start killing all of my relatives, will I kill Elaida, too.  You bet.  She deserves it.  Did that help with your question?  Glad to be of service.  G-nite.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Dark side of the force, whaaa? This isn't star wars, lol...

 

 

Now, to try to attempt to answer this question, here is my opinion:

 

If you are truly mad enough to go on a OP rampage, then even if you do start to hurt your bondee, you don't really realize what is happening, because you aren't fully aware of everything around you.

 

Truth is, you probably kill your bondee so suddenly that you don't experience anything until after the fact, and that doesn't save their life, now does it?

 

Because I don't think a madman goes around lighting little fires with a small thread of OP. I think he fires lightnings and spins earthfire and shoots balefire before you can even blink.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Ok, now THAT makes sense.  Thank you Tinuviel!  That wouldn't be from LotR would it?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

lol no problem. And as for my name, its loosely based on LotR elvish. But I don't think I consciously put it together, it just sort of came to me after reading LotR.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Hmm, well I like it, Tinuviel is an elvish name, though it may be spelled a little different... I love Tolkien's elvish language creation, it's a very soft, beautiful language.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

A year or two ago I bought a book entitled "The Languages of Middle-Earth" and it has translations and prefixes and suffixes and stuff, particularly for elvish. Its got a lot of nifty information. Might want to check it out sometime.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just to show that I'm a dork in more than one fantasy world ....

 

Tinuviel is the name that Beren, son of Barahir, gave to Luthien, daughter of Thingol (Elwe) and Melian the Maia, when he heard her singing in the forest of Doriath.  It means "Nightingale".

 

Ealdur is an Old English form of the word that is now spelled "Elder", with the connotation of being ancient or extremely old. 

 

So, Ealdur Tinuviel means "Ancient Nightingale".

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

That's um, that's pretty cool. Thanks.

 

I actually didn't realize at the time that the last name was a complete copy of a LotR name. Its kinda like when you are out of ideas and something pops into your head...except you think it is original but it really isn't, you know?

 

 

[GrandpaG]

Just to show that I'm a dork in more than one fantasy world ....

 

Tinuviel is the name that Beren, son of Barahir, gave to Luthien, daughter of Thingol (Elwe) and Melian the Maia, when he heard her singing in the forest of Doriath.  It means "Nightingale".

 

Ealdur is an Old English form of the word that is now spelled "Elder", with the connotation of being ancient or extremely old. 

 

So, Ealdur Tinuviel means "Ancient Nightingale".

 

Yet again...simply amazing.  :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... Luthien Tinuviel doesn't actually appear in The Lord of the Rings ... the story of Beren Erchamion (One-Handed) and Luthien Tinuviel is in the Quenta Silmarillion ... But Beren and Luthien are the maternal great-grandparents of both Elrond (and therefore Arwen Undomiel) and of his brother Elros Tar-Minyatur, who became the first King of Numemor, whose descendents were first the Kings of Numenor, then the Kings of Gondor and Arnor, then the Dunedain of the North, whose line culminated with Aragorn son of Arathorn.  (That means that Arwen was actually the niece of Aragorn's 58-times-great-grandfather.  Yes.  I'm such a dork that I counted.  Pretty much all the Elves there are related too ... for example, Elrond is married to Celebrian, who is Galadriel's daughter, making Galadriel Arwen's grandmother.)

 

Because Beren was human, and he and Luthien fell in love, Luthien decided to become mortal, and their descendents got to choose whether to be mortal or to share the fate of the elves.  This is why, when Arwen chooses to become mortal and marry Aragorn, she talks of making "Luthien's choice".  Their theme fits with Tolkien's premise of sorrow and loss bringing the greatest wisdom and beauty.

 

There is only one other recorded example of an Elf and a Human marrying in Tolkien's tales; it is Elrond's paternal grandparents, Tuor son of Huor and Idril Celebrindal.  There is some indication that rather than Idril becoming mortal, Tuor was given the option of becoming Elven, and took it.  They are the parents of Earendil the Bright, who is Elrond's father.

 

So, Ealdur Tinuviel: it just goes to show that you really do have a grasp of the "feel" of Tolkien's languages ... you independently came up with the same name he did!