S3E4 - The Road to the Spear

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/22/2025 at 3:44 PM, Skipp said:

 

Apparently the scene was written but cut from the script before filming.  They clearly wanted it but couldn't find a way to work it in to their satisfaction with the time restraints and such, unfortunately.

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This could well be a flashback scene later on, we had a few of them in season 1 and I feel that there are more coming. As part of the madness Rand could see images of things such as this and then use that as reasoning to not pick up Callandor etc. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/23/2025 at 6:29 AM, Irvyne said:

But let's not forget, there is a WHOLE lot of "not-much" between Books 6 and 11. I would say the majority of those books could be easily glossed over, and the plot would barely be affected at all.

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I mean I understand why some think that, for me I have regularly gone back and only read from 4 to 11 there isn't much I dislike in terms of the story and what some call "not much story" I love and accept but am dissapointed it will need to be cut from the show. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/22/2025 at 5:29 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

For me the most glaring omission from the column visions was in the vision where the Aiel are being sent on their mission.  In the books the Aes Sedai sending them explicitly refuse the request for some of the Aiel to remain and refer to the actions of the Aiel in trying to delay or divert one of the hundred companions from destroying a city - referring to thousands of Aiel linking arms and singing to him while he destroyed them.  Why bother to set this up in series one with the tinkers linking arms to block the whitecloaks and not have the payoff in the visions?  Establishing that even in the age of legends Aiel pacifism was not a passive thing but involved active resistance to evil was important.  

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This can easily be a flashback scene, either Rand seeing something similar from the POV of Lewis, or even just a straight up flashback scene to show the audience the breaking. This works in the TV medium in a way it probably wouldn't in a book. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:55 PM, Agitel said:

 

This is just an "ackshually" moment on my part, nothing to do with the show...

 

Outside of the books, both Jordan and Sanderson confirmed (for better or worse) that gender is a soul attribute in the Wheel of Time world. 

 

Interviews with both with direct answers are included here. 

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='dragon soul'

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I think we can say that 2 things are true. 

In the books you are reincarnated with the same gender and this was defined on multiple occasions.

In the TV show you are simply reincarnated and could be any gender. 

I still don't see how this change for the TV show breaks anything in the books given that all the characters are the same gender as they are in the books. What it does do is solve some questionable morale and philosophical issues that the books have raised within the book audience and make them non issues. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/21/2025 at 11:05 PM, Mirefox said:

Thus a 100% unnecessary change that didn’t further the narrative in any way or help in changing the medium of the story.

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completely disagree. I have always thought the idea that souls had to be gendered, while Robert Jordans stated definition of his world, was just silly and wrong. Especially if you think of the turning of the wheel. Why couldn't there be a female dragon at some point in the future, why couldn't it be Saidar that is tainted?

Souls being un gendered does not impact the telling of this turning of the wheel in any way shape or form. This isn't a political correctness thing, it is just a logic thing, that and there where some strong moral and real social issues that get raised if you insist people in the WOT are a fixed gender. 

I also wonder would Robert Jordan of 2025 be as fixed on that narrative or would he more likely say "The dragon will always be male, not because the souls are gendered, but because it will always be Saidin that gets tainted and thus always be a man that leads the battle to fix that wrong", but that does not indicate that all other souls are always resurrected the same gender. 

 

Edited Sunday at 01:08 PM by Scarloc99

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/23/2025 at 6:29 AM, Irvyne said:

But let's not forget, there is a WHOLE lot of "not-much" between Books 6 and 11. I would say the majority of those books could be easily glossed over, and the plot would barely be affected at all.

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  On 3/23/2025 at 7:53 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

So what you're saying is we're gunna miss out on dozens of hours of food critiques, fashion shows and skirt straightening?

 

(Sigh) I guess they could do that as spin offs, like a WoT cooking show..?

 

And today's guest is Lanfear, i hear its going to be spicey 😉

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Not really. 

Books 5 to 11, rand goes from the aiel waste to taking cahirien and caemlin, fighting the seanchan around ebou dar, founding the black tower, having adventures in far madding. There are all the arcs with the shaido, the andoran succession, the bowl of winds, mat escaping ebou dar, the tower split...

Some people like to pretend those books don't exhist, but all the main characters have major story lines and development. You can't cut them and start with book 12.

Even if you wanted to condense, you'd have to invent new plots to justify the differences in the characters. I'm sure you guys would LOVE an entire season of made-up material to cover everything from books 5 to 11.

 

As for all the arms folding and sniffing, it only takes 1 line of text to write that. Remove all such instances from the books, you cut maybe 5 pages. Remove flowery descriptions, you remove another 100 pages for each book, maybe 150. Stilll a lot of plot. 

 

If you dismiss half the books as "nothing really happens besides hair-pulling", you don't realize how big the story is

 

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/23/2025 at 12:35 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I think we can say that 2 things are true. 

In the books you are reincarnated with the same gender and this was defined on multiple occasions.

In the TV show you are simply reincarnated and could be any gender. 

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Yes.

 

  On 3/23/2025 at 12:42 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Souls being un gendered does not impact the telling of this turning of the wheel in any way shape or form.

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It impacted things, but it didn't ultimately change things.

[TheMountain]

I just came here to say that I absolutely loathed seasons 1 and 2, but against all odds, season 3 episode 4 has restored my faith. If they can maintain the same caliber and faithfulness to the books moving forward, they've earned themselves a fan.

Edited Sunday at 04:20 PM by TheMountain

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/23/2025 at 3:35 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Yes.

 

 

It impacted things, but it didn't ultimately change things.

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Intrigued what you think it impacted, in my mind I can’t think how it has so far but I am open to listening to other opinions. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/23/2025 at 4:35 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Intrigued what you think it impacted, in my mind I can’t think how it has so far but I am open to listening to other opinions. 

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Characterization and underlying Lore, mostly.

 

The degendering of souls legitimizes the initial plausibility of Logain's conviction that he's hearing the voices - both male and female - of previous Dragons Reborn because there actually could have been female Dragons Reborn (although we later learn that he's just mad and isn't the actual Dragon Reborn, the initial legitimate possibility that he could have been - which doesn't exist in the same form without the degendering of souls -deepens his characterization).

 

The degendering of souls also allows for the addition of a detail like Egwene's love of the Travels of Jain Farstrider being fueled by literally  imagining herself as Jain reborn, and for Mat's 'tea-induced hallucinations' of his mother to literally be manifestations of himself in a previous life.

[Masha]

  On 3/22/2025 at 2:45 AM, KakitaOCU said:

The show has clearly done things that, while we might not agree, I can easily see as being a way to let something that happened in the books have more impact or get the audience going "Ohh, that's like..."

Other examples available but off topic since they're in other episodes. 

Just looking at this episode.  Having Rand jump straight to Janduin helps give him a deeper connection to his father and a better understanding of what happened.  Watching the scene also suddenly gave me more appreciation for in the book when Rand says his parents are Tam and Kari but he wishes he could have known Tigraine and Janduin.

I think the way Moraine's visions were such rapid fire flickers and insanity is a VERY solid way of showing how the arch visions jumble and vanish away until you only really hold onto certain messages.

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Did you notice that first part of Moirane's visions (about Rand) were Egwene's from books?

[TheMountain]

  On 3/23/2025 at 4:35 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Intrigued what you think it impacted, in my mind I can’t think how it has so far but I am open to listening to other opinions. 

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Imagine being Rand or Mat and remembering all your intimate experiences in previous incarnations of both genders? That would be... interesting...

Edited Sunday at 06:09 PM by TheMountain

[books of Robert Jordan]

@king of nowhere It's useless arguing with people who, to put it mildly, dislike Robert Jordan, his books, his prose, his plots, his characters, his world and the rules of (t)his world etc., etc.

 

To quote Robert Jordan: It's my story, guys. If you have ideas, write your own stories.

[A Memory Of Why]

Did a rewatch and it's still just a fun episode, some cool things i noticed..

 

The flicker coming in and out of the visions, it's kinda disappointing but still a nice touch.

 

Really cool how they spoke more old tongue the further back they went, I'm glad they leant into it, helps give the feel of how much time has passed and how it's a completely different world.

 

In the hobbit Rand vision they spoke with a similar accent as the tinkers.

 

The orb is shown multiple times being in the tree, even way back when "rand" was given it he puts it, cradled in a chora plant.

 

Also in that vision "rand" looks and we see a geysers of fire shooting to the sky, at the end we'll see them all over place in the distance.

 

Nice to finally talk about the DO and his prison, think that's the first time the prison was mentioned.

 

Natasha deserves some praise for Meiren Sedai, the difference in posture and her being kind and caring and excited resercher. Even though they were speaking the old tongue you can feel a touch of sadness at the end talking about staying close to your loved ones. All in all it was well done i think.

 

Interestingly, when she talks about a power anyone can use she says something like "Tara-angrael".

 

Now the bore, wasn't that exciting 🤗 - anyone else think it's looks like an eye? Not an eyeball like sauron but a whole eye.?

Edited Sunday at 10:08 PM by A Memory Of Why

[Yamezt]

  On 3/23/2025 at 10:05 PM, A Memory Of Why said:

Interestingly, when she talks about a power anyone can use she says something like "Tara-angrael".

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Don't recall hearing that.

But when Rand's ancestor asked what was in there, she said "True Power", it sounded like "Sai-hyet" - which then dawned on me that we never had an Old Tongue word for True Power in the books.

Edited Sunday at 11:16 PM by Yamezt

[Figs and Mice]

  On 3/21/2025 at 11:43 AM, Mirefox said:

This is what I was asking about earlier and it seems that many viewers were a bit confused, so don’t worry, you’re not alone.  As I mentioned, it was confusing for the the first time through the books, too, and I’m not alone, there.  I think they summed it up for you nicely here, but it is essentially a reverse history lesson.

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My wife has not read the books , and she appreciated a little explanation from me as to what exactly was going on . Devilishly difficult to depict all the stuff about the columns and rings on screen (hence the need to introduce a brief instruction from the Wise One before they entered).  But I reckon they did a splendid job on this pivotal part of the story 👏

 

Overall  , best episode in the whole series so far.  And vital that they did in fact nail it as a "fail" here would have just about finally turned off a lot of us. Can't stress too much the importance of getting some of these key details right as they are far more essential than a lot of the minor irritations over more "disposable" changes.

 

Feeling a lot more confident now looking forward 👍

[Gary Again]

The columns are complex but I think they did a good job explaining it and while I would have liked to see the other visions they would have just added to this complexity without being necessary to the main story. We really don't have to see the maidens be created we can just see the fact that they exist and it really doesn't matter too much how it started where every step in the chain that they showed was needed and I like that approach because it's complex enough.

 

I'd also say it seems like the thing that is confusing people isn't so much the Aiel story it's the last flashback with Mieren breaking the hole in the bore and they mention that earlier in this episode but I don't think they did a lot to set up the dark one's prison and the bore so I think this threw people for a loop and then Lanfear being there and mentioning LTT to Rand's ancestor. This is all directly from the book though so I don't think there is any way around this confusion I'm just glad they showed it and I thought they did a great job I was kind of shocked I was actually seeing it on screen it's such an iconic moment. I wish we got the full vision too with the shock lances and Ogier warriors but again that probably just makes things more confusing when there is enough going on.

 

What I hope happens is if they film some of these scenes and even if they don't make it into Amazon's time constraints eventually we get an extended edition like LOTR where it has a lot of this extra stuff added back in. I'm not sure how realistic this would be but it would be cool if they did it like a directors cut.

[Agitel]

The way around the confusion would have been to better lay the basics over the course of season one and two, and really it wouldn't even be a lot of exposition all things considered. 

 

Then in the preview before this episode they could have done their whole "remember this?" thing and boom it's explained. 

 

But also they may just choose to tackle the whole sealing and thinness in the Pattern after this reveal rather than before. 

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 3/23/2025 at 12:29 PM, Scarloc99 said:

This can easily be a flashback scene, either Rand seeing something similar from the POV of Lewis, or even just a straight up flashback scene to show the audience the breaking. This works in the TV medium in a way it probably wouldn't in a book. 

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The only way I see this happening if it's a visual flashback aligned with Rand's little speech to Lanfear about Sammael and Rhorn M'doi...hope seemed to die that day. Visuals to accommodate the memory, and show the audience / Lanfear that it's real. Otherwise, a powerful moment, but doesn't impact our heroes

 

Edited Monday at 11:43 PM by Jaysen Gore

[DigificWriter]

Popping back in with a thought that was sparked by The Wheel & Chill Show: although we've only ever seen her talk about Rand in the context of him being a reincarnated Lews, Lanfear (Mieren) has to recognize his physical resemblance to her Aiel servant Charn.

[Yamezt]

  On 3/25/2025 at 4:50 AM, DigificWriter said:

Lanfear (Mieren) has to recognize his physical resemblance to her Aiel servant Charn.

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IMHO, I think it is for television purposes that we see "Rand" as his ancestors—likely just a way to indicate whose point of view we’re following and tying the link to Rand. 

 

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/25/2025 at 5:32 AM, Yamezt said:

IMHO, I think it is for television purposes that we see "Rand" as his ancestors—likely just a way to indicate whose point of view we’re following and tying the link to Rand. 

 

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I'm not saying that Charn and Rand are identical in appearance, merely that there is a definite physical similarity there that Lanfear has to recognize even if she's never brought it up.

Edited yesterday at 05:38 AM by DigificWriter

[Ralph]

It is 3000 years later and we don't know if she was asleep or awake while sealed away

[DigificWriter]

I haven't seen a lot of discussion about the fact that the Aiel songs of harvest got mythologized into The Song by the Tuatha'uon over the course of generations. It's a great way to illustrate the truth of the passage "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again".

[Irvyne]

  On 3/25/2025 at 5:37 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

I'm not saying that Charn and Rand are identical in appearance, merely that there is a definite physical similarity there that Lanfear has to recognize even if she's never brought it up.

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But the way I see it, is that Rand's ancestors didn't ACTUALLY look just like him; Josha was merely cast in those roles so that people watching the TV show would "get it."