S3E2:A Question of Crimson - Discussion

[Mailman]

  On 4/5/2025 at 3:13 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Only it isn’t. Because she cut a deal. She forgave the Houses because they agreed to remove the existing leadership. 

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We can argue about the semantics all day. But it was clearly a betrayal of the ceasefire with the existing rulers. I also find it unlikely that you could get private access to and convince family members of 4 houses to assassinate their own relatives. I mean their positions within their houses who they had sold out to Morgase must be extremely suspect.

 

Morgase has still had a child killed for nothing more than making her own rule easier.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/5/2025 at 11:56 PM, Mailman said:

We can argue about the semantics all day. But it was clearly a betrayal of the ceasefire with the existing rulers. I also find it unlikely that you could get private access to and convince family members of 4 houses to assassinate their own relatives. I mean their positions within their houses who they had sold out to Morgase must be extremely suspect.

 

Morgase has still had a child killed for nothing more than making her own rule easier.

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There is a ton of ambiguity in the situation. We have no idea what led up to that decision or what actions or atrocities those that were killed were responsible for. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/5/2025 at 11:59 PM, Elder_Haman said:

There is a ton of ambiguity in the situation. We have no idea what led up to that decision or what actions or atrocities those that were killed were responsible for. 

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You are again just making stuff up. 

 

The information we are given is that they opposed her and she has forgiven them. She then betrays them and murders them including a child.

 

I mean I could just make up that the girl who opposed her did so solely by means of politics and did not use any armed forces and was actually a follower of the way of the leaf.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 12:03 AM, Mailman said:

You are again just making stuff up. 

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No. I am pointing out that we have incomplete information. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 12:09 AM, Elder_Haman said:

No. I am pointing out that we have incomplete information. 

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If they had done atrocities during the conflict then that surely would have been a better reason than just openly backstabbing them and forcing the relatives to kill them.

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 4/5/2025 at 11:59 PM, Elder_Haman said:

There is a ton of ambiguity in the situation. We have no idea what led up to that decision or what actions or atrocities those that were killed were responsible for. 

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Elaidas smugness makes it a little less ambiguous i think.

 

I stated earlier that I caught the name of one of the houses, Carean who ends up with Aramylia (?), opposing Elayne during the succession. I wouldn't be surprised if the other two houses will also end up against Elayne, so they could be using this scene to further that plot.

 

Also, we see Sylvase who succeeds her house at the end of the war is shown to be quite cold and ruthless, very eager to use her "secretary". Maybe they'll use this scene to show her cold hearted nature? Then again, if i remember correctly daddy was a bit rapey..

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 12:16 AM, Mailman said:

forcing the relatives to kill them.

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No one looked like they were being forced.
 

  On 4/6/2025 at 12:39 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

Elaidas smugness makes it a little less ambiguous i think.

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All I’m saying is that we have next to no information about how this event came to pass. We only know that it happened. Perhaps Elaida convinced each of the Houses that this was their best play. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 12:43 AM, Elder_Haman said:

No one looked like they were being forced.
 

All I’m saying is that we have next to no information about how this event came to pass. We only know that it happened. Perhaps Elaida convinced each of the Houses that this was their best play. 

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So much for the game of houses not being brought into Andor then. And you seriously believe that no type of force was exerted to bring about the murder of 4 family members.

 

Morgase was still complicit despite whatever role Elaidia played.

Edited April 6 by Mailman

[Mirefox]

  On 4/5/2025 at 6:45 PM, Fiona_12 said:

 

 

Yes, I know she did. And I can kind of understand your line of thinking, but I can't agree with it because everyone in the House is part of that House, so the implication is they are all forgiven. It's semantics, and very underhanded. Cutting deals with the rest of the members of the House doesn't make it less dishonest. 

 

I can accept a ruthless Morgase, like punishing people when it is necessary for the stability of the kingdom when she would rather show mercy, but I can't accept a dishonest Morgase.

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It’s also brain dead stupid “ruling.”  Why publicly show that you are not to be trusted?  If she had some behind-closed-doors agreement with the Houses to remove their rulers, she should have forgiven them, sent them on their way, then had all the assassinations carried out back on their turf with plausible deniability.

 

This scene couldn’t have painted Morgase in a more negative light.

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/5/2025 at 8:38 PM, Samt said:

That said, I think that the question is more the degree to which this was a betrayal of trust on Morgase’s part

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I wasn't questioning the plausibility of such an action. I know enough of history to know this bind of things happened IRL. I was arguing that it paints Morgase as an amoral ruler.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Morgase is a troubling character at times in the book. I can see why people would want to move away from the "she is such a good queen because she is beautiful and has the body of a sex goddess" trope in fantasy. Making her ruthless, works well in setting, a ruler cannot hold to a rigid morality above the good of the people or their own right to rule (political stability is nearly always in the interests of the people). Also I guess it is meant to be showing Elaida's influence in protecting the Andor Royal line at all costs.

 

But the scene is a poor one IMHO. Clearly it is designed for shock value, not to make sense politically. It had to be set up in one scene with everyone present to their reactions, and it had to be shocking to both non-readers and readers. It also doesn't make a lot of sense in the book world where the Wars of Succession are almost pseudo-legal disputes where each House is sovereign until a new Queen is chosen. Eliminating the Houses' rulers wouldn't impact on their claim to the throne when Morgase died unless they have actually removed the entire lineage of the House. Which you would think would set the rest of the Nobility against House Trakand forever. 

 

But I think looking that deeply into it is pointless. It is TV, severely limited in time and scope and the vignette is meant to give a measure of Morgase's personality and Elaida's influence. While being oh so very shocking (which to be fair it was, though I didn't really appreciate it that much). Trying to use it to understand Andor's political situation I think is going too far than what they were trying to achieve. They chose shock value over nuance, disappointing but understandable. 

[Figs and Mice]

Sorry but I just cannot take seriously that people are defending that scene in any manner.  It was pure "shock horror " , Red Wedding imitation , that added nothing remotely useful to the story.  Totally undermined the character of Morgase ; and as HHMB has posted above , makes zero sense in terms of the political customs of the world and cultures of Randland. 

 

Just Bad Writing , pure and simple. And the standout blot on what has otherwise been a hugely improved third season. Hope whoever thought that one up doesn't have much more say on what goes on from here...

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Tbh, I don't think it undermines Morgase's character at all, I think you just have give up on any deep analysis of what is going on and accept it at face value that Morgase is ruthless and effective. 

 

I don't think I'd go as far as calling it bad writing - it is blunt, and obviously the main aim was the shock value. I think that is easily apparent from the choice of people executed. But there is sufficient wriggle room to justify what is going on - they had submitted to her, so we're they not subject to her rulings? It isn't great political drama but that obviously wasn't the aim. 

 

Definitely not a fan of it, but I can see what they were trying to do and understand the justification for it. Anyone arguing that now Morgase is no longer a fairy tale princess turned Queen is missing the point, IMHO. In the show world, these people were some sort of threat to the throne. It isn't explained how, but there isn't time to explain that kind of thing, so the cold opening makes for a good talking point and illustrates and introduces a new character's personality with a bang. Blunt, but effective. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 12:47 AM, Mailman said:

And you seriously believe that no type of force was exerted to bring about the murder of 4 family members.

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Obviously there was some force - it was a Succession War. In the scene, however, there is no indication that any of those who did the killing were forced to do so as opposed to willingly doing so for their own personal gain. 
 

Is Morgase complicit? Sure. One of those “this is the price of leadership” moments. It shows us what she is capable of - it doesn’t necessarily show us who she really IS. Do you see the difference?

[Mirefox]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:36 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Obviously there was some force - it was a Succession War. In the scene, however, there is no indication that any of those who did the killing were forced to do so as opposed to willingly doing so for their own personal gain. 
 

Is Morgase complicit? Sure. One of those “this is the price of leadership” moments. It shows us what she is capable of - it doesn’t necessarily show us who she really IS. Do you see the difference?

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This kind of sounds like the news reports where some mass shooter’s parents say “he was such a sweet boy, that’s not who he is.”

 

I’m pretty sure is you plan/condone/allow the slitting of throats, including that of a child, publicly and in your presence at the seat of your throne, that’s who you are.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 2:15 PM, Mirefox said:

This kind of sounds like the news reports where some mass shooter’s parents say “he was such a sweet boy, that’s not who he is.”

 

I’m pretty sure is you plan/condone/allow the slitting of throats, including that of a child, publicly and in your presence at the seat of your throne, that’s who you are.

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In order to save a kingdom from countless more deaths…

[notpropaganda73]

I mentioned when I first posted about this episode that I didn't like the scene, but I think it worked for a TV audience in setting up Morgase's character for the rest of the episode. When she threatened the Amyrlin that she would come back to Tar Valon with an army at her back, my girlfriend was like "she means business!" 

 

There were definitely better ways to do it, like I said I don't really like the scene personally, but it does establish Morgase very clearly with one scene. 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/7/2025 at 7:43 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

I mentioned when I first posted about this episode that I didn't like the scene, but I think it worked for a TV audience in setting up Morgase's character for the rest of the episode. When she threatened the Amyrlin that she would come back to Tar Valon with an army at her back, my girlfriend was like "she means business!" 

 

There were definitely better ways to do it, like I said I don't really like the scene personally, but it does establish Morgase very clearly with one scene. 

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It would actually have been more effective to establish her as wise and benevolent and then show her later as impatient and ruthless.  She is, after all, a different person with Gaebril around.  How are they going to show that.

[notpropaganda73]

  On 4/7/2025 at 12:47 PM, Mirefox said:

It would actually have been more effective to establish her as wise and benevolent and then show her later as impatient and ruthless.  She is, after all, a different person with Gaebril around.  How are they going to show that.

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that's fair, their thinking might have been that within the episode it would be a little confusing as the Gaebril reveal doesn't happen until the following episode. Not saying I agree with that but might have been a note from some studio exec or just a lack of trust in the audience from the writers' room or who knows what

 

Like I say I generally agree with you, I didn't like the scene and would prefer a bit more subtlety on Morgase's character, it felt very caricature-like to me, but it's not something I'm overly hung up on in the wider context of the show. For my non-book reading girlfriend, it definitely worked to establish Morgase in that episode. It's only one person but whenever she reacts positively or doesn't nitpick at something, I tend to be able to let it go a lot more even if I don't particularly like it 😅