Season 3 Sneak Peek

[Turin Turambar]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:08 AM, Mailman said:

Thats not the point people defended that scene and said it was her practice with the power that allowed her to use those attacks and now people are claiming that massively more powered Aes Sedai with decades maybe centuries more experience with the power are incapable with it. How would she even now how to conjure a lightning blast since she never even attained an Ajah and offensive abilities are only being taught to the Red and Green. If she had simply used massive simple attack like fire or air slices it could be explained. But that does not make a great visual is the answer.

 

Its the Dothraki charge with flaming swords. Fantastic visual shit storytelling.

 

As i said its possible the full episode could give meaning to the Moiraine and Lan scene.

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First, I'm not "people ". I never defended that scene. I think it was terrible  but  that is neither here nor there. The Sheinar lady was trained in the tower. Everyone in the tower is trained to do many things with the power including attacks. But how long ago, and how much ongoing training do they do? I was in the military, but it was decades ago. If while at work I was put into a situation that required me to use something I knew back then it would take me a while to perform the task and it would probably not be very well done. That is the average Aes Sedai. They primarily use the power for mundane tasks or little things that please them. Only the Reds, and Greens really train at all or use the skills needed in a fight.  The Blacks also because they have a use for it.

 

Actually,  using something already there, like the power of a storm, is easier than creating and shaping air or fire from nothing. All she did was draw and concentrate the power already inherent in the storm and direct it in a general  direction.  That it was visual in a visual medium like TV makes sense as well. Would it have made more sense for this semi trained, under powered woman to be able to make hundreds of individual weaves to slice through the loads of trollocs attacking? I argue not. 

[Ithillian Turambar]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:19 AM, Mailman said:

You know without any doubt that the Dark one and the forces of the shadow are real.

You know that there is an entire nation dedicated to killing you.

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But they didn't know. Only Moiraine and Siuan knew the Dragon had been reborn at first. And then Alanna and Leanne would have been warned. So makes sense they were the only ones who didn't go into shock at the Black Ajah reveal.

 

'The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.'

 

3000 years since the last time they battled the dark. 1000 years since the Trolloc wars. 

 

And, apart from those who were in the know, the rest of them had no idea they'd suddenly be attacked and betrayed by their own friends and sisters. The shock of suddenly realising the end of the world was coming wouldn't have helped either.

[Ithillian Turambar]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:41 AM, Turin Turambar said:

I never defended that scene. I think it was terrible 

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Agree. But she has the ring so reached Accepted and would know how to initiate a Link. The others would not know how to do that.

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:41 AM, Turin Turambar said:

First, I'm not "people ". I never defended that scene. I think it was terrible  but  that is neither here nor there. The Sheinar lady was trained in the tower. Everyone in the tower is trained to do many things with the power including attacks. But how long ago, and how much ongoing training do they do? I was in the military, but it was decades ago. If while at work I was put into a situation that required me to use something I knew back then it would take me a while to perform the task and it would probably not be very well done. That is the average Aes Sedai. They primarily use the power for mundane tasks or little things that please them. Only the Reds, and Greens really train at all or use the skills needed in a fight.  The Blacks also because they have a use for it.

 

Actually,  using something already there, like the power of a storm, is easier than creating and shaping air or fire from nothing. All she did was draw and concentrate the power already inherent in the storm and direct it in a general  direction.  That it was visual in a visual medium like TV makes sense as well. Would it have made more sense for this semi trained, under powered woman to be able to make hundreds of individual weaves to slice through the loads of trollocs attacking? I argue not. 

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Did not mean any offence when i said the people, i just remember having a lot of arguments with posters who used that as the reason for that battle.

 

In that scene there is not an existing storm present from the views i can see all though it is dark there is certainly no rain or lightning.

 

[Turin Turambar]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:19 AM, Mailman said:

Think about what you guys are arguing for.

You have a powerful group of gifted power channelers.

You know without any doubt that the Dark one and the forces of the shadow are real.

You know that there is an entire nation dedicated to killing you.

You live for hundreds of years.

And you are saying that they are completely garbage at using the power they have in the defence of themselves their warders or others. Except for 2/7ths of your population.

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The general population of Randland doesn't even believe that trollocs are real. Members of the Black Ajah never imagined that they would be called to battle in their lifetimes. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Sheriam specifically says she just swore in order to make life easier. She was miffed at the inconvenience of performing tasks for the shadow and especially having to submit to others like the Forsaken.

No one other than those in the borderlands pays much attention to the blight or to trollocs raiding. It's a "them" problem. How many things happening far from your home are you really paying attention to? Are you ready to go battle the Russians today? I'm not.

 

How many of these Aes Sedai do you think have been in a real fight to the death? I would wager none other than the Blacks, infighting being a thing. Even the Greens were woefully unprepared for battle when 

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The Seanchan attack the tower itself. 

. So yeah, the Aes Sedai aren't the justice league.

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:50 AM, Ithillian Turambar said:

 

But they didn't know. Only Moiraine and Siuan knew the Dragon had been reborn at first. And then Alanna and Leanne would have been warned. So makes sense they were the only ones who didn't go into shock at the Black Ajah reveal.

 

'The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.'

 

3000 years since the last time they battled the dark. 1000 years since the Trolloc wars. 

 

And, apart from those who were in the know, the rest of them had no idea they'd suddenly be attacked and betrayed by their own friends and sisters. The shock of suddenly realising the end of the world was coming wouldn't have helped either.

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I didn't say that they knew the Dragon had been reborn. Are you trying to tell me the Aes Sedai do not know about the dark one and shadow and Children of the light.

 

And i am not talking about the general population. Why are you strawmaning this so hard.

Edited February 23 by Mailman

[Ithillian Turambar]

The children of the light?

 

Not sure how they've got involved in this discussion but at least 7 sisters were killed by the children just because they had their hands cut off.

 

They believed so strongly that they had to use the gestures they'd been taught, to channel the power, that when they lost their hands and were bound they believed they couldn't channel.

 

Egwene sees this and makes it her mission to never rely on those gestures. Hence all the chest thrusting lol.

 

So yeah, old school Aes Seda knew the stories and the legends, but even Alanna said she never expected the Last Battle would happen in her lifetime.

 

 

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:54 AM, Turin Turambar said:

The general population of Randland doesn't even believe that trollocs are real. Members of the Black Ajah never imagined that they would be called to battle in their lifetimes. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Sheriam specifically says she just swore in order to make life easier. She was miffed at the inconvenience of performing tasks for the shadow and especially having to submit to others like the Forsaken.

No one other than those in the borderlands pays much attention to the blight or to trollocs raiding. It's a "them" problem. How many things happening far from your home are you really paying attention to? Are you ready to go battle the Russians today? I'm not.

 

How many of these Aes Sedai do you think have been in a real fight to the death? I would wager none other than the Blacks, infighting being a thing. Even the Greens were woefully unprepared for battle when 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Seanchan attack the tower itself. 

. So yeah, the Aes Sedai aren't the justice league.

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Not talking about the general population.

 

Its a completely different thing comparing the Seachan attack on Tar Valon where they used overwhelming  targeted strikes on a fractured tower with the sole aim of capturing Damane to Having a self confessed member of the Black Ajah standing right in front of you being defended by 4 other members of the Black Ajah and having a 4 to 1 advantage and not being able to do anything at all you even had 3 members of the green ajah in the room. The only kill they got was by using a club they are totally useless.

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:02 AM, Ithillian Turambar said:

The children of the light?

 

Not sure how they've got involved in this discussion but at least 7 sisters were killed by the children just because they had their hands cut off.

 

They believed so strongly that they had to use the gestures they'd been taught, to channel the power, that when they lost their hands and were bound they believed they couldn't channel.

 

Egwene sees this and makes it her mission to never rely on those gestures. Hence all the chest thrusting lol.

 

So yeah, old school Aes Seda knew the stories and the legends, but even Alanna said she never expected the Last Battle would happen in her lifetime.

 

 

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The children are a point because the Aes Sedai dont just live behind the shinning walls their entire lives. Browns visit libraries Greys negotiate treaties Blues get involved in the world. So being aware of the dangers means being able to defend themselves.

 

Again not the point. Not expecting the last battle to happen in your lifetime is a reasonable assumption or possible assumption. Them knowing that Shai'tan and the forces of the dark are 100% real in another.

Edited February 23 by Mailman

[Turin Turambar]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:55 AM, Mailman said:

I didn't say that they knew the Dragon had been reborn. Are you trying to tell me the Aes Sedai do not know about the dark one and shadow and Children of the light.

 

And i am not talking about the general population. Why are you strawmaning this so hard.

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The prevailing wisdom of the time, even amongst "the wise" is that The Dark One and all the Forsaken are locked away behind the seals and will remain so. The Aes Sedai don't even know the seals are a physical thing despite the fact that one of the titles for their leader is "watcher of the seals". So I would say that they are not aware of the actual threat level.  For them it is a problem for a future generation,  like global warming. 

 

I think you have bias because as a reader, YOU know what is going on. The people in the story do not. They are muddling through the best they can. 

[Ithillian Turambar]

"The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time. The hand of the Creator shelters the world, and the Light shines on us all."

 

So, if they don't know the Dragon has actually been reborn then they don't know that the Dark is about and causing trouble. And they've got no reason to be worrying about it. Only the Greens have been actively preparing for this.

 

Oh... I've been totally sniped by Turin lol.

 

Edited February 23 by Ithillian Turambar

[Mailman]

So you are really arguing that the Tower does not really believe that the Dark one is a threat despite all the prophecies and all their knowledge.

 

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:20 AM, Ithillian Turambar said:

 

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Just noticed  X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett ~

Absolutely love that Pratchett is my 2nd favourite Author

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 2/23/2025 at 9:56 AM, Mailman said:

You have people here arguing that only the green red and black are even remotely able to fight, and you are comparing it to a sneak attack against a fragmented tower by battle hardened units.

 

Maybe you should get some glasses.

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Yeah I am comparing it to a "surprise" attack from an "inferior" force, whilst under siege from channellers who could travel. 

 

Not only was their defence horribly abysmal but the only "faction" that held their own was the novices.. Novices! 

 

That's canon dude.

 

And yeah, I agree that the Reds and Greens are the most capable in battle, again canon.

 

With the blues being a step behind, outside of testing the other Ajahs aren't going to be helpful... in regards to a surprise attack from an "Ajah" that is known at best to be a myth or a horrible joke.

 

  On 2/23/2025 at 9:56 AM, Mailman said:

It's possible that a couple of blacks did not get involved however i would assume that anyone sitting on their hands in a fight between the Light and the Shadow would have some serious questions to be answered. 

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It's possible the black sitters are replacements but I think they'll be the Ajah heads. Still, is it so outlandish that the Blacks, who don't know each other would feign attack / defence in this scenario? 

 

Again, it's canon the Aes Sedai aren't as cool as they think they are, let alone ready for a fight.. 

 

I think you're barking up you're own tree dude.

[Ithillian Turambar]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:27 AM, Mailman said:

So you are really arguing that the Tower does not really believe that the Dark one is a threat despite all the prophecies and all their knowledge.

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Pretty much yeah. The prophecies are vague. The bad guys are all locked away. Any guy who channels is gentled cos they are a false dragon.

 

It's been 3000 years, so they probably were on high alert in the beginning but now, not really.

 

 

[Ithillian Turambar]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:31 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

With the blues being a step behind, outside of testing the other Ajahs aren't going to be helpful..

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Well the Grays could try and whip up a quick mediation and ceasefire/armistice agreement 😃

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:31 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Yeah I am comparing it to a "surprise" attack from an "inferior" force, whilst under siege from channellers who could travel. 

 

Not only was their defence horribly abysmal but the only "faction" that held their own was the novices.. Novices! 

 

That's canon dude.

 

And yeah, I agree that the Reds and Greens are the most capable in battle, again canon.

 

With the blues being a step behind, outside of testing the other Ajahs aren't going to be helpful... in regards to a surprise attack from an "Ajah" that is known at best to be a myth or a horrible joke.

 

 

It's possible the black sitters are replacements but I think they'll be the Ajah heads. Still, is it so outlandish that the Blacks, who don't know each other would feign attack / defence in this scenario? 

 

Again, it's canon the Aes Sedai aren't as cool as they think they are, let alone ready for a fight.. 

 

I think you're barking up you're own tree dude.

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Wrong the seachan where aiming for a purely hit and run attack their objective was simply to capture Damane using a lightning strike and then escaping as soon as they met resistance they were to retreat. They employed overwhelming force via an avenue of attack that was not thought possible. It was a good plan.

 

Standing against 4 to 1 odds toe to toe is a shit plan.

 

If you think it was the novices that held their own you need to go and read that section again.

Egwene was the sole rallying point not the novices. Egwene used some of the novices by linking and then took Vora's Rod and ended the attack by herself. 

 

Egwene was the faction that's canon dude.

Edited February 23 by Mailman

[Turin Turambar]

Yes Egwene was the one who repelled the attack. So the Aes Sedai were so bad at warfare that they were overwhelmed in what was only supposed to be a raid by a force they knew existed and was hostile to them? I think your proving the point that the Aes Sedai were not skilled in combat nor strategically sound. It seems you think, or maybe  want, them on par with the Asha'man in combat. They just weren't.  

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:50 AM, Turin Turambar said:

Yes Egwene was the one who repelled the attack. So the Aes Sedai were so bad at warfare that they were overwhelmed in what was only supposed to be a raid by a force they knew existed and was hostile to them? I think your proving the point that the Aes Sedai were not skilled in combat nor strategically sound. It seems you think, or maybe  want, them on par with the Asha'man in combat. They just weren't.  

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No not at all. 

The Aes Sedai where already at under half strength due to the split and further splintered due to Elaida.

The Seachan attacked from a direction that was completely unexpected.

The Seachan at no point ever intended to occupy the tower and nor could they. The sole objective was capturing individual channelers and then fleeing.

Tar Valon was surrounded by another army so the gates and bridges where guarded further weaking its internal defences when attacked from a completely unbelievable direction.

 

Could they have guarded against a known army using an unknown troop deployment method maybe? But it's unlikely. Don't forget that the Seachan had travelled for many nights to stage this attack Tar Valon was a massive way from the Seachan lines at this point. The only warning they had was Egwenes dream which Elaida refused to listen to.

[Elder_Haman]

@Mailman you entirely dismiss how shocking this attack would be. Most of the sitters would be in shock trying to process how and why women they knew for decades are suddenly using the power to attack. 
 

Responses would be incredibly slow as they try to work out what is going on. Think about it. This starts as a trial for a rogue Red. Only Siuan knows she will reveal Liandrin as Black. The revelation of her as Black alone would be a huge shock. The Mother admitting such a thing exists would be a massive revelation by itself. 

 

Then Liandrin holds the power. The reckless act of a woman caught? What is happening?  “Join me?” In what? Why are those sisters getting up? What are they doing? Are they going to help Siuan? Did they really just do that? Why? Was it a mistake? All of these questions would be banging around in their head - about people they know, like, and trust. 
 

These types of things can freeze even highly trained people (see the Uvalde shooting). Why is it so surprising to you that a room full of women who never imagined such thing (the Black Ajah) was possible and believed themselves to be the world’s greatest power - absolutely untouchable in the heart of the Tower - would struggle for a minute to react appropriately? 
 

 

Edited February 23 by Elder_Haman

[expat]

A couple of points:

 

The yellow, grays, whites would have been terrible fighters since their whole reason for existing was anathema to violence.

 

The browns and blues had people who went into the world and might have needed to protect themselves, so individual sisters would have been proficient in self-defense, but again there was no call for projective attack weaves for either ajah.  

 

Bottom line, it is not unreasonable that the sitters from these ajahs were not accomplished fighters able to handle the pressure of a surprise firefight. 

 

I find the time to get off weave question focusing on the wrong issue.  Several times in the books, it was noted that the AS were trained to unnecessarily wave their hands during weaving.  While they could have done the spell much quicker, they waste time making physical gestures. So, by book logic, it would take noticeable time to cast the weaves.  Someone trained not to use the hand gestures will get the spell off much faster.

[expat]

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the black ajah knows they will eventually attack the other AS sisters so have practiced (at least thought about) how to attack them.  They know all the attack spells sisters are normally taught, so they can have defenses against them prearranged.  They can develop (and teach) new attack weaves, not taught to the sisters, for which they have no defenses.

 

Now for some as powerful as Nyn, this preplanning is useless because of the power gap, but against surprised, equal strength sisters, this is a major edge which alleviates the number disadvantage.  Notice how they took Nyn out to keep her from wiping the floor with the black ajah, assuming she got past her block. 

[expat]

One final point before I shut up.  Why are we analyzing this scene so intensely?  Is our enjoyment of action/adventure movies/series tied up with the accuracy of the fight scenes?  If we spent this much time nitpicking the car chases in F&F, or the fight scenes in MI, or the daredevil scenes in James Bond movies we would find all kinds of silly inconsistencies and physically impossible events.  If we enjoy these types of movies/series, we suspend belief and go with the flow as long as the scenes are interesting and visually exciting. If we don't enjoy this type of entertainment, the nitpicking is a good excuse to use as to why we don't enjoy it, but generally not the underlying reason. When was the last time you saw an action/adventure movie/series and thought, I would like it if only that fight scene was more realistic?

 

Lets use our logic on other parts of these movies/series or on movies/series that invite serious logical analysis.

[Storeebooq]

  On 2/23/2025 at 4:23 PM, expat said:

One final point before I shut up.  Why are we analyzing this scene so intensely?  Is our enjoyment of action/adventure movies/series tied up with the accuracy of the fight scenes?  If we spent this much time nitpicking the car chases in F&F, or the fight scenes in MI, or the daredevil scenes in James Bond movies we would find all kinds of silly inconsistencies and physically impossible events.  If we enjoy these types of movies/series, we suspend belief and go with the flow as long as the scenes are interesting and visually exciting. If we don't enjoy this type of entertainment, the nitpicking is a good excuse to use as to why we don't enjoy it, but generally not the underlying reason. When was the last time you saw an action/adventure movie/series and thought, I would like it if only that fight scene was more realistic?

 

Lets use our logic on other parts of these movies/series or on movies/series that invite serious logical analysis.

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but but but over analyzing is just what we DO! 😁

 

I am still hoping when March 13th rolls around there's a little more to this scene. 

Especially want to know why the Yellow/Black Ajah Sitter that we see in the initial fight isn't present at the gate confronting Alanna. Did she go on an errand? Was there more fighting as they made their way to the gate? I hope we get some action, and would LOVE to see Egwene kick some Black Ajah tail

 

 

[Ithillian Turambar]

  On 2/23/2025 at 7:35 PM, Storeebooq said:

but but but over analyzing is just what we DO! 😁

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Yup and it's so nice to be able to join in and just chat and try and figure out what's going on and why.

 

I never felt comfortable enough to join in when it was the book discussion as there are far far more in depth readers than I have ever been.

 

But the TV show. Absolutely! Was this the same? Why is it different? What's going on here then? Ooh nice dress!

 

Fun times!

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 7:27 AM, Mailman said:

What the hell is the purpose of the power in the Tower

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It is used for all sorts of things, I'm sure. The Yellows use it to heal and cure disease. It is likely used to assist in building and irrigation projects (though we don't really hear about that much). But for the most part, as of this Turning, the power isn't put to much use beyond theatrics. It is hoarded and studied and leveraged but not much used because it doesn't much need to be used.

 

To the extent that it does need to be used, it is the Greens that are using it for war and the Reds who are using it for "policing". The Blues use it to remain unobtrusive while they carry out their personal missions. The Black on the other hand, is being trained for just this type of encounter, which is why they can be so effective so quickly. It's shock and awe and the others simply aren't ready for it.