Season 3 Sneak Peek

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 2:58 AM, Elder_Haman said:

No one argued this. 

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[DigificWriter]

  On 4/11/2025 at 4:45 PM, Ithillian Turambar said:

Maybe we can like the books and like the show

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Not according to the 'haters' both here and elsewhere online.

 

In the minds of those people whose only purpose in engaging in online discourse is to tear into the show and the people making it, you either agree with their contempt or you're not a 'true' Wheel of Time fan.

 

I responded to a person on Reddit who was using gatekeepy language, and the only response I got was from somebody else who tried to argue that the person I was responding to wasn't being gatekeepy by typing a screed that was in and of itself incredibly and demonstrably gatekeepy.

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:10 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Not according to the 'haters' both here and elsewhere online.

 

In the minds of those people whose only purpose in engaging in online discourse is to tear into the show and the people making it, you either agree with their contempt or you're not a 'true' Wheel of Time fan.

 

I responded to a person on Reddit who was using gatekeepy language, and the only response I got was from somebody else who tried to argue that the person I was responding to wasn't being gatekeepy by typing a screed that was in and of itself incredibly and demonstrably gatekeepy.

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I can't speak for elsewhere but that is a completely unfair characterization in regard to here. Reducing all the arguments of those that dislike the show in the manner you have chosen is itself gatekeepy.

 

I can tell you now that despite no evidence I have been accused of being a bigot, homophobic and a bookcloak, so whitewashing this as a purely show "hater" issue is absurd.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:04 AM, Mailman said:

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Exactly zero of these quotes argue that a sister couldn’t produce a shield because she was untrained. ZERO. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:26 AM, Mailman said:

Reducing all the arguments of those that dislike the show in the manner you have chosen is itself gatekeepy.

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I have never once made disparaging arguments or claims against the legitimacy of the show haters' fan cred, so, no, comments about the demonstrated attitudes of those who dislike the show (both here and elsewhere) towards those whose opinions on it differ do not in any way, shape, or form fit into the definition of Gatekeeping.

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:38 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

I have never once made disparaging arguments or claims against the legitimacy of the show haters' fan cred, so, no, comments about the demonstrated attitudes of those who dislike the show (both here and elsewhere) towards those whose opinions on it differ do not in any way, shape, or form fit into the definition of Gatekeeping.

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  On 4/13/2025 at 3:10 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Not according to the 'haters' both here and elsewhere online.

 

In the minds of those people whose only purpose in engaging in online discourse is to tear into the show and the people making it, you either agree with their contempt or you're not a 'true' Wheel of Time fan.

 

 

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You just did.

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:38 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Exactly zero of these quotes argue that a sister couldn’t produce a shield because she was untrained. ZERO. 

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But a weave has to be learned and practised. None of them ever expected to be attacked. Most of them are just doing admin. 

 

To this point, the other ajahs have no reason to learn battle magic.

 

Bottom line, it is not unreasonable that the sitters from these ajahs were not accomplished fighters able to handle the pressure of a surprise firefight. 

 

Skills  diminish over time.  I trained to do things when I was younger. I doubt that I would be able to do them now even if my life defended on it. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:47 AM, Mailman said:

But a weave has to be learned and practised. None of them ever expected to be attacked. Most of them are just doing admin. 

 

To this point, the other ajahs have no reason to learn battle magic.

 

Bottom line, it is not unreasonable that the sitters from these ajahs were not accomplished fighters able to handle the pressure of a surprise firefight. 

 

Skills  diminish over time.  I trained to do things when I was younger. I doubt that I would be able to do them now even if my life defended on it. 

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The goalposts move again…

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:42 AM, Mailman said:

 

You just did.

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How, exactly, does the comment you quoted state or imply that you are somehow a 'lesser' fan of the Wheel of Time if you don't have positive feelings towards the TV show?

 

People who do not like the TV series are absolutely entitled to hold that opinion; however, holding that opinion does not entitle them to disparage any differing opinions or immunize them from having that behavior commented upon negatively.

 

 

Edited April 13 by DigificWriter

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/13/2025 at 2:50 AM, Mailman said:

 

 

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Believe it or not, these are consistent. The fact that you can't see that, is because you don't see that you are the one that is constantly pestering everyone and won't stop beating a dead horse, until others believe what you do.

 

So DROP IT.

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:50 AM, Elder_Haman said:

The goalposts move again…

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No goalposts moving.

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:56 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

How, exactly, does the comment you quoted state or imply that you are somehow a 'lesser' fan of the Wheel of Time if you don't have positive feelings towards the TV show?

 

People who do not like the TV series are absolutely entitled to hold that opinion; however, holding that opinion does not entitle them to disparage any differing opinions or immunize them from having that behavior commented upon negatively.

 

 

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Do you consider me one of the haters?

[Ithillian Turambar]

Dude, give it a rest. It's like you just want to argue. It's not a discussion cos other people give their thoughts and you just say, 'no'.

 

It's exhausting.

 

What do you hope to achieve? 

 

 

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 6:50 AM, Ithillian Turambar said:

Dude, give it a rest. It's like you just want to argue. It's not a discussion cos other people give their thoughts and you just say, 'no'.

 

It's exhausting.

 

What do you hope to achieve? 

 

 

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All I want is to have an open discussion.

 

I bumped this thread solely because I thought that it would be good to revisit the fact that a few people in discussions about the initial battle talked about the lack of training and practice being reasons why they could not fight or defend themselves.

 

Since then I have been accused of goal post shifting bias and that show haters treat others with contempt if you don't blindly follow them, which is hilarious as I have been accused of homophobia being a bigot and a book cloak through my travels when I have never even remotely issued the same vitriol in return. And people think that I am the bully because I defend my arguments, LOL. I think I might take a bit of a break for now as i am quite upset by all this crap.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Very well.

 

Here are my thoughts but I still think that this would be best served by discussing it in a thread that shows the new points you wish to make.

 

Surely that's a more organic way to discuss than coming back to a 7 or 8 week old thread and saying, 'and another thing!' like Columbo

 

I do believe that Rand is right and that the Aes Sedai do not know all the ways of the One Power or how it may be used. The show showed his discussion with Moiraine to emphasise this.

 

The White Tower has become a faded system, where girls are taken in young, before they may have even begun to Channel, and then taught that to do a specific thing you must move your hand this way and mix the elements that way and you must practise this specific thing lots and lots.before you will ever get it right.

 

You can see how decades, or even centuries, of this belief has weakened the skills and knowledge of the Aes Sedai when having their hands chopped off prevents them from using the One Power. And so it can be shown that belief does over ride will, if that belief is strong enough.

 

They do not like Wilders who figure stuff out by themselves because they just really really want to do a thing and then do it.

 

So if a young girl has spent her life in the Tower, being indoctrinated with all the things that it is impossible to do, and no-one ever felt the need to teach her attack weaves or even defence weaves because she becomes Grey or Brown or a non exploring/battle Aes Sedai then her own ingrained belief system makes it impossible to create anything she has not been shown, learned, practised and perfected.

 

Then move on to those that have not been brought up in this system. Or even those who first touch the Power. They have not been taught what they can and can't do. They have their own strength of connection and the will to survive/help

 

So an untrained Nyn has so much power and wants to heal and help so much that she will do anything and she connects and does whatever she can with her level of power. And she can do a lot.

 

Two young girls see the man that killed their mother. They connect to the power in vengeance and he burns.

 

Daise Congar (forgive me if I spell things wrong, but you know the new wise woman) sees the weaves and realises she also has a connection to this Power. No one tells her what is possible or impossible and so in a moment of need she wishes to protect and a shield forms. But she doesn't know ow how to maintain it or what she actually did and the arrows/spears break it apart piece by piece and it falls.

 

Llandrin, in her fear and despair of seeing someone wanting to take her child and kill them screams in defiance and touches the power and takes her attackers down.

 

In these instances where seemingly impossible things happen, they seem to me like those people who suddenly have the strength to lift a car off a trapped person.

 

The absolute raw need is there, they've never been told it is impossible and so it is not impossible.

 

And so I still believe that the WT rigid control and training system is their own worst weakness. They believe it is impossible to do anything new unless they are shown, learn, practise and succeed. 

 

Which at least 'some' of the people in that room may never have had to do with attack or shield weaves because why would they? It's the WT right. Safest place in the world.

 

And that is my thoughts and my opinions and why I think what happened may have happened. I do not believe that you can use the actions of what other 'untouched and untrained' people can do when they reach out with hope and fear and strength to show that the very first section of this whole series was wrong.

 

I see that you feel that you are unhappy because you feel people are not listening to you. Sometimes I think it may be because they do not agree with you.

 

So, what were you hoping to achieve by bumping this Thread? What is your goal? You say an open discussion.  I believe you want to win.

 

And that's a silly thing to want on an Internet forum.

 

Adios amigo.

 

 

 

Edited April 13 by Ithillian Turambar

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 8:07 AM, Ithillian Turambar said:

Very well.

 

Here are my thoughts but I still think that this would be best served by discussing it in a thread that shows the new points you wish to make.

 

Surely that's a more organic way to discuss than coming back to a 7 or 8 week old thread and saying, 'and another thing!' like Columbo

 

I do believe that Rand is right and that the Aes Sedai do not know all the ways of the One Power or how it may be used. The show showed his discussion with Moiraine to emphasise this.

 

The White Tower has become a faded system, where girls are taken in young, before they may have even begun to Channel, and then taught that to do a specific thing you must move your hand this way and mix the elements that way and you must practise this specific thing lots and lots.before you will ever get it right.

 

You can see how decades, or even centuries, of this belief has weakened the skills and knowledge of the Aes Sedai when having their hands chopped off prevents them from using the One Power. And so it can be shown that belief does over ride will, if that belief is strong enough.

 

They do not like Wilders who figure stuff out by themselves because they just really really want to do a thing and then do it.

 

So if a young girl has spent her life in the Tower, being indoctrinated with all the things that it is impossible to do, and no-one ever felt the need to teach her attack weaves or even defence weaves because she becomes Grey or Brown or a non exploring/battle Aes Sedai then her own ingrained belief system makes it impossible to create anything she has not been shown, learned, practised and perfected.

 

Then move on to those that have not been brought up in this system. Or even those who first touch the Power. They have not been taught what they can and can't do. They have their own strength of connection and the will to survive/help

 

So an untrained Nyn has so much power and wants to heal and help so much that she will do anything and she connects and does whatever she can with her level of power. And she can do a lot.

 

Two young girls see the man that killed their mother. They connect to the power in vengeance and he burns.

 

Daise Congar (forgive me if I spell things wrong, but you know the new wise woman) sees the weaves and realises she also has a connection to this Power. No one tells her what is possible or impossible and so in a moment of need she wishes to protect and a shield forms. But she doesn't know ow how to maintain it or what she actually did and the arrows/spears break it apart piece by piece and it falls.

 

Llandrin, in her fear and despair of seeing someone wanting to take her child and kill them screams in defiance and touches the power and takes her attackers down.

 

In these instances where seemingly impossible things happen, they seem to me like those people who suddenly have the strength to lift a car off a trapped person.

 

The absolute raw need is there, they've never been told it is impossible and so it is not impossible.

 

And so I still believe that the WT rigid control and training system is their own worst weakness. They believe it is impossible to do anything new unless they are shown, learn, practise and succeed. 

 

Which at least 'some' of the people in that room may never have had to do with attack or shield weaves because why would they? It's the WT right. Safest place in the world.

 

And that is my thoughts and my opinions and why I think what happened may have happened. I do not believe that you can use the actions of what other 'untouched and untrained' people can do when they reach out with hope and fear and strength to show that the very first section of this whole series was wrong.

 

I see that you feel that you are unhappy because you feel people are not listening to you. Sometimes I think it may be because they do not agree with you.

 

So, what were you hoping to achieve by bumping this Thread? What is your goal? You say an open discussion.  I believe you want to win.

 

And that's a silly thing to want on an Internet forum.

 

Adios amigo.

 

 

 

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Simply it is where the discussion began so I thought it an acceptable place to continue it.

 

It feels to me that you are almost arguing that training at all seems to be a mistake as need seems to be remarkably effective method for channelers.

 

I understand the point you raise in regards to getting locked into a certain method however usually the more extensively trained force ends up the victor rather than the one that responds in ignorance, desperation and need. Also in regards to this in the tower battle there were 3 greens sitters in the room especially trained for combat.

 

You referenced Daise Congar's shield to my eye it was identical to the one that Alanna raised in response to the whitecloak ambush and broke down in the exact same manner with bolts breaking sections of the shield. It feels improbable that the instinctive shield would be identical to the trained tower channeler's shield.

 

My issue with Liandrin's usage was the precision and the repetition. Could a desperate child searching for an escape reach out for that power, certainly yes, to wield it so finely and be able to repeat it, unlikely.

 

As I said I bumped this thread because I believed that an incident occurred in the current episode that cast a question mark on the argument advanced in this episodes thread. My goal was to see if the current incident had caused anyone to reevaluate their argument, clearly for you it has not.

 

Was it really required for you to attribute a negative connotation on my motives to end your response?

 

A good day to you as well.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/12/2025 at 12:24 AM, Mailman said:

Yet again the initial argument from other people was that the loyal Aes Sedai could not produce shields because they lacked the training or experience to do so.

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This is your initial (false) claim. I (correctly) pointed out that no one claimed this. 
 

You then posted a number of quotations - none of which argued that Aes Sedai could not produce shields because they lacked training or experience. 
 

In fact, several of the quotations stress the difference between offensive and defensive use of the One Power. (The reason for this distinction is that your initial complaint was that a small number of Black Ajah members were able to easily beat a large group of Sitters)

 

So yes, you’ve moved the goalposts. 

  On 4/13/2025 at 7:08 AM, Mailman said:

I bumped this thread solely because I thought that it would be good to revisit the fact that a few people in discussions about the initial battle talked about the lack of training and practice being reasons why they could not fight or defend themselves.

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 No one talks about lack of training being a reason they ‘could not produce shields or defend themselves.’ They DID produce shields.
 

They mentioned lack of training as a reason that the Black Ajah were better and able to pull of their surprise attack. 

[CaddySedai]

From a Lore perspective it actually makes a ton of sense - to me. And would be on brand.

 

Wilders do all channeling based on need. They would not see the OP the same way as those trained within the rigid constraints as Aes Sedai. There are ups and downs to this though. It would allow for more flexibility and "inventing" but also would not allow for as much finesse.

 

Take for example Lan and Rand early on. Both had killed a trolloc using a sword. Rand out of the need to survive - and Lan because he's just a certified badass. Nobody would argue that luck didn't play a HUGE role on Rands early survival ... maybe the Creators hand tipping the scale a bit. But still they were both officially "swordsmen" in that they had done battle, drawn blood, and survived. 

 

Lan would have absolutely wiped the floor with Rand.

 

-------------------

 

Also Aes Sedai who are already locked into the mentality that - there is a specific weave...with specific motions and specific amounts of power drawn from threads would immediately blame - lack of training. Because in there eyes if they haven't seen, learned, and practiced a weave - how could they do something?

 

Its that rigid mentality that likely caused much to be lost in the breaking, and why we "rediscovered" weaves later.

 

That said there are ups and downs. A Wilders shield likely wouldn't be up to snuff against a full trained AS who put in the hours. I'd take Cadsuane shielding me over a billion wilders.

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 1:31 PM, Elder_Haman said:

This is your initial (false) claim. I (correctly) pointed out that no one claimed this. 
 

You then posted a number of quotations - none of which argued that Aes Sedai could not produce shields because they lacked training or experience. 
 

In fact, several of the quotations stress the difference between offensive and defensive use of the One Power. (The reason for this distinction is that your initial complaint was that a small number of Black Ajah members were able to easily beat a large group of Sitters)

 

So yes, you’ve moved the goalposts. 

 No one talks about lack of training being a reason they ‘could not produce shields or defend themselves.’ They DID produce shields.
 

They mentioned lack of training as a reason that the Black Ajah were better and able to pull of their surprise attack. 

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Look shield was not specifically said in the posts but being able to protect oneself most certainly falls into the area being talked about and shielding was being talked about in the posts leading up to those posts. If you want to so incredibly narrow the parameters that's your choice. I will maintain that people were arguing that non green/red/black Ajahs were not trained in or had not practiced battle magic as part of their defence for the scene and thus comparing it to a newbie insta casting an ability that falls into this range is not unreasonable.

[Mailman]

  On 4/13/2025 at 5:49 AM, SinisterDeath said:

you are the one that is constantly pestering everyone and won't stop beating a dead horse, until others believe what you do.

 

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As to this point it is simply not true.

 

I am not constantly pestering everyone. I reply to someone's post or someone replies to mine which leads to a back and forth. I only post things that I believe to be true. I am often posting in response to multiple people which maybe why the quantity has led you to incorrectly believe I am pestering or it could be the fact that you rarely agree with my points.

 

I am more than open to being shown instances of me hounding people if you can show them as it is something I don't wish to do. Engaging in an argument that goes post for post between me and another individual does not qualify unless you are also accusing the other poster of the same as you are accusing me.

 

The only times I can recall that I have pushed hard for a response on this forum is when people have accused me personally of things.