Rewatch Time

[Mailman]

  On 1/4/2025 at 1:31 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Sometimes you can't run, Rand. 

 

Perrin was suggesting something along the lines that Rand was already thinking, running away to keep everyone else safe, but also about how you cannot run from what is inside you. Mat had something similar with the dagger - that was entirely his fault - yet felt no sympathy and was talking about running from Rand to keep himself safe. 

 

In my opinion, Mat's character in the show is a good reconciliation of the the book character pre-healing (where Mat was the Gollum in the LOTR trope) and post-healing, where he is a completely different character, with different traits and abilities. Your denial that there was any change does lend support to your judgement of the show's adaptation, much less your claim that anyone that thinks differently is delusional. 

 

We see things differently, but this is not due to you liking or knowing the books better (especially not if you need to read a passage to remember what it said *joking*). 

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Well i suppose if your view is as negative as it seems then TV Mat is somewhat accurate but for those of us that see Mat as honest, that has looked out for and protected his friends and put himself in harms way for the safety of the world then you can see how i would have a vastly different opinion.

[Mailman]

@DigificWriter Was Moiraine given a learning block in the TV show?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 1/5/2025 at 8:19 AM, Mailman said:

Well i suppose if your view is as negative as it seems then TV Mat is somewhat accurate but for those of us that see Mat as honest, that has looked out for and protected his friends and put himself in harms way for the safety of the world then you can see how i would have a vastly different opinion.

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I think you have hit it on the head there. We all have different views of the characters and interpret them differently. Even Jordan's intentions don't set in stone how they are received. 

 

It is like Suian's uncle, who kept going back into the burning house to save the children. He was a hero when it mattered, but a lazy drunk when it didn't. Mat left to his own devices makes bad decisions. That doesn't make him a bad person, not at his core. Show Mat, even if he did steal the bracelet or prostitute himself or whatever, made a bad decision. But we never see him let his sisters down. When he meets the fade, he isn't running away but fighting to try to protect the girl, but he'll let Rand chop all the wood while he is warm and cozy. When it matters, he is there. 

 

Remember in the book, Mat repeatedly tries to get away from situations and out of danger but is defeated by his "luck" and being a ta'veren. To an extent, we see the best possible Mat as we see his heroism in saving the Wonder Girls, but being tied to the Dragon Reborn also stops him from drinking his life away and being like Suian's uncle. Imagine what being an addicted gambler would look like if you didn't always win. 

 

And this isn't to argue that your interpretation is "wrong", but to try and support why some people may see things differently, that doesn't rely on them being delusional or not true fans or whatever else. Mat is definitely a complex character and some people will emphasis different parts of it, and some people will judge him differently on his motives or on his actions. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 1/4/2025 at 12:59 AM, Mailman said:

Was Moiraine given a learning block in the TV show?

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Yes.

 

 She mentions it to Rand in The Eye of the World.

 

More observations about S2 that have come out of my rewatch so far:

* I really want to know when and how Moiraine learned that Rand had gone to Cairihen and how exactly she got Logain transferred to the Sanitorium there

 

* Credit for this one goes to KritterXD, but the fact that Egwene and Elayne met because Elly's maids left pillows in front of Eggy's door and Eggy returned them is amusing given the existence of the concept of Pillowfriends

 

* When the show has such interesting bad guys like Ishy, Liandrin, Lanfear, and the Seanchan (just in general), its kind of hard not to find them 'rootable'

 

* I still love the costuming choice to have the Damane wear pacifier gags, especially given the revelation from later on in the season that they're only forced to do so in public spaces

 

* Having Moiraine and the characters around her believing and behaving as if she'd been Stilled is still really effective even knowing the truth of the situation, and I like that it exposed her as flawed, imperfect, and in some cases unlikable

[Mailman]

  On 1/11/2025 at 6:15 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Yes.

 

 She mentions it to Rand in The Eye of the World.

 

More observations about S2 that have come out of my rewatch so far:

* I really want to know when and how Moiraine learned that Rand had gone to Cairihen and how exactly she got Logain transferred to the Sanitorium there

 

* Credit for this one goes to KritterXD, but the fact that Egwene and Elayne met because Elly's maids left pillows in front of Eggy's door and Eggy returned them is amusing given the existence of the concept of Pillowfriends

 

* When the show has such interesting bad guys like Ishy, Liandrin, Lanfear, and the Seanchan (just in general), its kind of hard not to find them 'rootable'

 

* I still love the costuming choice to have the Damane wear pacifier gags, especially given the revelation from later on in the season that they're only forced to do so in public spaces

 

* Having Moiraine and the characters around her believing and behaving as if she'd been Stilled is still really effective even knowing the truth of the situation, and I like that it exposed her as flawed, imperfect, and in some cases unlikable

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Thanks for clarifying that I don't remember that being mentioned. Would be a deviation from the books again as Moiraine would have been unlikely to be seen as a Red Ajah possibility.

 

I would also like the show to give us more information about how some of the things actually happens.

 

Really dislike that the Tower would allow maids to be in the tower at all. Feel it really undercuts the tower as a whole.

 

Dont really understand how anyone could be (assuming you mean rootable as in having some empathy rather than sexually attractive) on the seachans side. Lanfear is clearly playing a different endgame than the others. Liked the actor playing Ishy but apart from that did not find him particularly someone i would get behind.

 

Would be more behind the gags if they served some purpose. If it follows the book it would be extremely difficult for the damane  to issue warnings in combat and a bit suspect if the Sul Damane are admitting seeing the weaves.

 

There is very little I like about Moiraines treatment in the show and this is yet another waste of time side quest.

[DigificWriter]

Here's a transcript of Moiraine's line:

  Quote

Moiraine: There was an Aes Sedai at the White Tower when I was a novice. She was everything that I wanted to be. She was strong, controlled, precise. She... she was terrifying. And she took a liking to me. She said she wanted to help make me everything that she thought I could be. And I was having... I was having trouble channeling. And she came to my room at night, alone... and she beat me with the One Power. Lashes of air and fire. And she wouldn't stop until the pain and the fear was so overwhelming that I grabbed the Power myself and I stopped her. Without even thinking about it, without even trying.

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I now believe that this Aes Sedai could have been/was Liandrin, because the attitude and approach as described matches what Liandrin tries to do with Nynaeve, and would also explain why Liandrin felt 'familiar' enough with Moiraine to caress her cheek in Season 1.

 

This is really neither here nor there, but some portions of the fandom have latched on to the idea that the presence of Jenny the Irish Wolfhound in Moiraine's room - despite Novices not being allowed pets - was related in some way to the aftermath of the incident(s) she describes.

 

Re: my comment about finding the villains rootable, it comes down to the writing and performances, with a bit of costume design thrown in, and Kate Fleetwood, Natasha O'Keeffe, and Fares Fares were all killing it with their portrayals of Liandrin, Lanfear, and Ishy.

 

Re: the gags, they do serve a purpose, which is to be visually and psychologically dehumanizing; they also look neat and cool as designed.

[Mailman]

  On 1/12/2025 at 4:50 PM, DigificWriter said:

Here's a transcript of Moiraine's line:

 

I now believe that this Aes Sedai could have been/was Liandrin, because the attitude and approach as described matches what Liandrin tries to do with Nynaeve, and would also explain why Liandrin felt 'familiar' enough with Moiraine to caress her cheek in Season 1.

 

This is really neither here nor there, but some portions of the fandom have latched on to the idea that the presence of Jenny the Irish Wolfhound in Moiraine's room - despite Novices not being allowed pets - was related in some way to the aftermath of the incident(s) she describes.

 

Re: my comment about finding the villains rootable, it comes down to the writing and performances, with a bit of costume design thrown in, and Kate Fleetwood, Natasha O'Keeffe, and Fares Fares were all killing it with their portrayals of Liandrin, Lanfear, and Ishy.

 

Re: the gags, they do serve a purpose, which is to be visually and psychologically dehumanizing; they also look neat and cool as designed.

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Well the only Aes Sedai that we have met in the show that could even remotely be that character is Liandrin so unless it is a yet unmet Aes Sedai or a complete throwaway line it has to be her.

 

There is some nuance in the 3 named that could provide something to possibly get behind but the seachan at this point are pretty black and white just evil, just the costumes could not possibly provide an element of rootability.

 

Re the gags the dehumanizing is hardly an issue for the Seachan and you have to look at what you lose by gagging them which are the issues of warnings and communication. How do they alert the Sul Damane to potential Damane or incoming attacks.

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 1/13/2025 at 12:56 AM, Mailman said:

Re the gags the dehumanizing is hardly an issue for the Seachan and you have to look at what you lose by gagging them which are the issues of warnings and communication. How do they alert the Sul Damane to potential Damane or incoming attacks.

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Well they can feel the Damanes feeling and such through the Adam, I'd imagine that could be used to assist with communicating.

 

Also as seen in Season 2 the Damane have a special ability that allows them to... 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Point 👉 

 

[DigificWriter]

  On 1/15/2025 at 1:57 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

Also as seen in Season 2 the Damane have a special ability that allows them to... 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Point 👉 

 

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😄 

 

  On 1/13/2025 at 12:56 AM, Mailman said:

you have to look at what you lose by gagging them which are the issues of warnings and communication. How do they alert the Sul Damane to potential Damane or incoming attacks.

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1. The Sul'dahm would never be expecting their Damane to have any need to verbally communicate because the idea is that the Damane are essentially pet dogs. 

 

2. The only Damane we saw with the ability to detect the ability to Channel in others was Miri, and she could pretty clearly and obviously communicate non-verbally (like, again, a pet dog)

[Figs and Mice]

Confess I do like the way some of the villains are being portrayed  - a plus for the show.  On the other hand ,  I think the gags on the Damane look pretty stupid. And basically pointless.

 

Opinions as usual will vary...

[DigificWriter]

^ Again, the gags aren't pointless; they're a visual symbol of how dehumanized the Damane are in the eyes of the Suldam who control them.

[Mailman]

  On 1/15/2025 at 1:57 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Well they can feel the Damanes feeling and such through the Adam, I'd imagine that could be used to assist with communicating.

 

Also as seen in Season 2 the Damane have a special ability that allows them to... 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Point 👉 

 

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Oh yeah my bad pointing is clearly going to be just as effective if pointing out 1 person among a crowd.

 

What feeling is going to identify a woman in a crowd?

What feeling is going to tell a Sul'Damane or the general leading a battle that they are facing a certain problem?

 

  On 1/15/2025 at 6:32 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

😄

 

 

1. The Sul'dahm would never be expecting their Damane to have any need to verbally communicate because the idea is that the Damane are essentially pet dogs. 

 

2. The only Damane we saw with the ability to detect the ability to Channel in others was Miri, and she could pretty clearly and obviously communicate non-verbally (like, again, a pet dog)

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Sone of the most impactful scenes in the books were when the Damane where begging to be recollared after being freed or responding like pets.

 

With the trained Damane there was no need for gags as they had been so thoroughly trained that it would be like gagging a dog.

 

Damane constantly patrolled for the uncollared. If they detected one and where gagged it would be much harder for them to identify the target especially in public spaces.

 

The gags are surplus to requirement if the training depicted in the books is used.

 

 

Edited January 15 by Mailman

[Figs and Mice]

  On 1/15/2025 at 8:57 AM, DigificWriter said:

^ Again, the gags aren't pointless; they're a visual symbol of how dehumanized the Damane are in the eyes of the Suldam who control them.

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As I  said , opinions will vary.  Perhaps I should have said "unnecessary".

[Figs and Mice]

Aside from the current issues...

 

I am now four episodes into a first season rewatch. Can't say it has improved my general feeling of disappointment with the show (not total disaster by any means ; but I think it could have been done much better) but at the same time I can appreciate some of what they were doing.

 

Unlike many  , I really like the casting for Lan : nothing much like the book physical description but he seems to me perfect for the character. Also approve of the Tinkers 👋 Less so the casting of Thom who just doesn't look or sound right at all.

 

Not too bothered with many of the minor differences. Just vexed by the silly idea to raise the chance of the Dragon being a woman  , in order to feed the "who is the Dragon ?" question . The whole idea behind the fear that is felt across the land about the Dragon's rebirth is that because he is a man he is going to go mad and destroy everything !  Kind of lost if he were reborn female , no ?

[DigificWriter]

 

  On 1/15/2025 at 9:23 AM, Figs and Mice said:

As I  said , opinions will vary.  Perhaps I should have said "unnecessary".

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Costume Designer Sharon Gilham added the gags to the Damane costumes as a visual representation of the Sul'dam (and the Seanchan in general) viewing the Damane as subhuman, which means that she obviously thought that having such an overt visual clue of how the Damane are viewed was in fact "necessary" or else she would not have bothered to incorporate gags into the costuming.

Edited January 15 by DigificWriter

[Kaleb]

  On 1/15/2025 at 4:30 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

 

Costume Designer Sharon Gilham added the gags to the Damane costumes as a visual representation of the Sul'dam (and the Seanchan in general) viewing the Damane as subhuman, which means that she obviously thought that having such an overt visual clue of how the Damane are viewed was in fact "necessary" or else she would not have bothered to incorporate gags into the costuming.

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I really like the visual of it, emphasizing that damane should not speak to anyone other than their sul'dam, they have no voice, in the Seanchan concept. That really dovetails with other Seanchan costuming, including Suroth's mask to keep her from being seen and even Turak's earhole coverings demonstrating he is not listening to those he doesn't grant that privilege to. I just wish it was more of a shield hanging from a nose ring or something and not what appears to be an actual pacifier in their mouth. 

[DigificWriter]

The point of the gags isn't that the Damane are rendered silent in Seanchan culture; the point is that they're subservient, enslaved, and subhuman.

 

Anything other than literal in-the-mouth gags doesn't actually convey the intended message either culturally or in terms of why Sharon Gilham added them to the costuming in the first place.

[Kaleb]

  On 1/15/2025 at 4:58 PM, DigificWriter said:

The point of the gags isn't that the Damane are rendered silent in Seanchan culture; the point is that they're subservient, enslaved, and subhuman.

 

Anything other than literal in-the-mouth gags doesn't actually convey the intended message either culturally or in terms of why Sharon Gilham added them to the costuming in the first place.

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I totally understand your point. I don't agree, but I 100% understand. I would prefer what I described since it's more reflective of how I read the Seanchan culture in the books. The show has every right to emphasize different things.

[Mailman]

  On 1/15/2025 at 4:58 PM, DigificWriter said:

The point of the gags isn't that the Damane are rendered silent in Seanchan culture; the point is that they're subservient, enslaved, and subhuman.

 

Anything other than literal in-the-mouth gags doesn't actually convey the intended message either culturally or in terms of why Sharon Gilham added them to the costuming in the first place.

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Its a fairly heavy handed method to show it. You already have collars, torture, imprisonment and the way the Sul'Damane treat them did we really need another.

 

And again with the training basically turning the Damane into more than happy accomplices it is unrequired and presents issues.

Edited January 16 by Mailman

[Samt]

  On 1/15/2025 at 4:58 PM, DigificWriter said:

The point of the gags isn't that the Damane are rendered silent in Seanchan culture; the point is that they're subservient, enslaved, and subhuman.

 

Anything other than literal in-the-mouth gags doesn't actually convey the intended message either culturally or in terms of why Sharon Gilham added them to the costuming in the first place.

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It does convey that message, but it's a bit over the top to say that's the only way to convey the message.  You could, for instance, have them walk around on leashes with collars around their necks.

[DigificWriter]

Collars and leashes don't send exactly the same message as gags do, though, or at least not as effectively.

 

Also, the Damane in the TV series aren't 'trained'; they're abused into submission and subservience, and putting them in gags in public is a symbol of that for both the Damane themselves and the wider world at large.

[Kaleb]

  On 1/16/2025 at 4:15 PM, DigificWriter said:

Also, the Damane in the TV series aren't 'trained'; they're abused into submission and subservience

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Exactly as in the books, FYI. That the Seanchan used the word "trained" and similar language was clearly an indication of their cruelty.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Strange though that the damane are not allowed to speak publicly while Seanchan nobility refuse to speak directly to underlings (other than those of immediately inferior rank), instead expressing themselves thorough their "voice of the blood".   Similar results with very different cultural meaning.  

[Samt]

  On 1/16/2025 at 4:36 PM, Kaleb said:

Exactly as in the books, FYI. That the Seanchan used the word "trained" and similar language was clearly an indication of their cruelty.

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This is true, but I think it's also an indication of the way they see Damage as literally animals.  They are training them like they would train a dog or horse.  The Seanchan military uses a wide variety of fantastic beasts like raken and grolm.  Grolm, at least, are naturally aggressive and predatory, so, while we don't know the exact training methods, they are likely extreme.  They see training damane as similar.

 

Of course, while this position is perhaps reasonable for those that don't interact with damane directly, it seems that many of the suldam struggle and cope with the cruelty in different ways.  The cognitive dissonance that this position creates when it is ultimately clear that damane are quite human affects different people differently, but leaves the suldam as somewhat broken mentally.   

Edited January 17 by Samt

[Mailman]

  On 1/17/2025 at 4:01 PM, Samt said:

This is true, but I think it's also an indication of the way they see Damage as literally animals.  They are training them like they would train a dog or horse.  The Seanchan military uses a wide variety of fantastic beasts like raken and grolm.  Grolm, at least, are naturally aggressive and predatory, so, while we don't know the exact training methods, they are likely extreme.  They see training damane as similar.

 

Of course, while this position is perhaps reasonable for those that don't interact with damane directly, it seems that many of the suldam struggle and cope with the cruelty in different ways.  The cognitive dissonance that this position creates when it is ultimately clear that damane are quite human affects different people differently, but leaves the suldam as somewhat broken mentally.   

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The Seachan see the Damane as too dangerous to leave uncollared that is one of if not the most important justifications for collaring them, they see them certainly as far more dangerous than the Grolm before collaring.

 

There was almost no indication in the books and none that I can remember in the tv show that any Sul'Damane were wavering from the core belief that the Damane needed to be collared, The only divergences came from differing beliefs on best training practices things like using more rewards or less punishments or pairing with experienced Damane.

 

I am not counting any somewhat conversions that happened post learning of their ability to channel, hell a number of the captured Sul'Dmane argued and fought to be collared when they learnt they could channel.

Edited January 18 by Mailman