Rewatch Time

[DigificWriter]

 

  On 1/17/2025 at 4:01 PM, Samt said:

They are training them like they would train a dog or horse

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You don't train dogs or horses by abusing them.

Edited January 18 by DigificWriter

[DojoToad]

  On 1/18/2025 at 12:55 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

 

You don't train dogs or horses by abusing them.

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In a perfect world.  Unfortunately some people do abuse animals to train them.  We've all seen the news stories or witnessed it ourselves.

[Mailman]

  On 1/20/2025 at 11:43 AM, DojoToad said:

In a perfect world.  Unfortunately some people do abuse animals to train them.  We've all seen the news stories or witnessed it ourselves.

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yep things like the greyhound industry should be shut down.

[DigificWriter]

Yes, people in our world abuse animals. My point still stands, though: abuse is not training.

 

The show pretty clearly wanted to make it obvious to audiences that the Damane are abused slaves (not trained and coddled pets), and the in-the-mouth gags do that super-effectively, as does the intense, in-your-face depiction of what happens to Egwene.

 

 

[DojoToad]

  On 1/20/2025 at 4:22 PM, DigificWriter said:

Yes, people in our world abuse animals. My point still stands, though: abuse is not training.

 

The show pretty clearly wanted to make it obvious to audiences that the Damane are abused slaves (not trained and coddled pets), and the in-the-mouth gags do that super-effectively, as does the intense, in-your-face depiction of what happens to Egwene.

 

 

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You might not think so, but abuse can be used for training.

 

Take the animals out of it.  Spouses abuse each other.  Karens scream.  Parents abuse children and vice versa.  Bosses abuse subordinates and coworkers abuse each other.  There may be an element of sadism involved, but I think this type of abuse (even unconsciously) is used to train the victim to a certain type of behavior or response.  Because they don't know how to train the right way.  They don't want to take the time to teach/train using words and examples.  They resort to the iron fist, screaming, passive-aggressiveness - or whatever has worked for them in the past for quick results.

 

Just because it is abuse doesn't mean that the animal or damane is not being trained.

[Mailman]

  On 1/20/2025 at 4:22 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

The show pretty clearly wanted to make it obvious to audiences that the Damane are abused slaves (not trained and coddled pets), and the in-the-mouth gags do that super-effectively, as does the intense, in-your-face depiction of what happens to Egwene.

 

 

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The books take is so much more chilling and hard hitting that the shows though.

 

Abused slaves compared to the trained animals and the inevitability of the training turning them into more than willing adherents of the empire. I know which I find to be the more chilling and terrifying of the two.

 

[DigificWriter]

New observations/thoughts from my rewatch (Episodes 4 & 5):

* I  really love the Cairihen plotline that runs through slash dominates Episodes 3-7, mainly because I love the character of Anvaere Damodred

 

* I love the interplay that we get between Ishy and Lanfear and Ishy and Suroth in Episode 5

 

* Even though I classify myself as a Show-Only WoT fan, I've chosen to not be unspoiled when it comes to details about the novels: one of the downsides to that, though, is that I'm still slightly confused about the overall end-goal of the writers including the White Tower subplot from Episode 5 of Verin playing Detective given that her actions don't seem to fit certain future novel-based revelations about her moral alignment

 

* I've always been of the belief that while we are going to see Moiraine 'meet a sticky end', as it were, the TV series' focus on Rosamund Pike as the Series Lead won't change, but as we start to get closer to Season 3, I'm kind of starting to wonder if my assumptions are going to be proven wrong, which makes me sad given that Moiraine is my favorite character

 

*I love how Episode 5 establishes that Moiraine and Anvaere are still 'best sisters' in spite of their decades of separation from one another and the clear resentment that said separation fostered on Anvaere's part

[DojoToad]

  On 1/24/2025 at 5:09 PM, DigificWriter said:

* I've always been of the belief that while we are going to see Moiraine 'meet a sticky end', as it were, the TV series' focus on Rosamund Pike as the Series Lead won't change, but as we start to get closer to Season 3, I'm kind of starting to wonder if my assumptions are going to be proven wrong, which makes me sad given that Moiraine is my favorite character

 

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I'm sorry, but what do you mean by 'sticky end'?

[DigificWriter]

  On 1/24/2025 at 5:30 PM, DojoToad said:

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by 'sticky end'?

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Death.

[Samt]

  On 1/24/2025 at 5:44 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Death.

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To be clear, insofar as you have mentioned being show only but not being unspoiled, are you aware of what happens to Moraine in the books?  Are you expecting a major departure?

[DigificWriter]

  On 1/24/2025 at 6:23 PM, Samt said:

To be clear, insofar as you have mentioned being show only but not being unspoiled, are you aware of what happens to Moraine in the books?

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 Yes.

 

  On 1/24/2025 at 6:23 PM, Samt said:

Are you expecting a major departure?

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My belief has heretofore always been that even though the show was most likely going to depict Moiraine 'dying', it was also likely going to keep Rosamund Pike as the Series Lead and protagonist of this particular Turning, but as we get closer to Season 3, I'm becoming less sure that the show isn't going to just kill Moiraine off permanently and shift to another actor as the Series Lead 'Game of Thrones'-style.

[DojoToad]

  On 1/24/2025 at 5:44 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Death.

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Thank you.  I should have inferred that...

[DigificWriter]

From the moment I started .my rewatch, I've been trying to remember/decide which episode(s) of Season 2 is/are my favorite(s), but after rewatching Episode 2x06, "Eyes Without Pity", I've settled (for now, anyway) on it as one of my favorite S2 episodes alongside the S2 Finale, "What Was Meant To Be".

 

I also realized/remembered that there's some pretty fun, yet subtle, foreshadowing that happens in that episode vis a vis Rand using the One Power offensively, which happens in 2x08.

 

It's also funny to hear everybody talk about how nice and kind Barthanes is knowing that he's a Darkfriend.

 

Ryma folding up a Sul'dahm like an origami doll is still just as simultaneously awesome and freaky as it was the first time I saw it happen.

 

I alluded to this in an earlier comment, but Renna is another villainous character that I  can't help but find interesting and complex even though she is doing some pretty horrible things.

 

I continue to love Nynaeve and Elayne, and the way they go from antagonistic to friends as a result of Ryma sacrificing herself still makes me happy and I'm hoping that there will be opportunities in Season 3 for them to build on that friendship.

[SinisterDeath]

  

  On 1/11/2025 at 6:15 PM, DigificWriter said:

* Credit for this one goes to KritterXD, but the fact that Egwene and Elayne met because Elly's maids left pillows in front of Eggy's door and Eggy returned them is amusing given the existence of the concept of Pillowfriends

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I almost did a spit take when I read this.

Holy crap, how did I miss that? That is an amazing easter egg. lol

 

  On 2/8/2025 at 6:25 PM, DigificWriter said:

Ryma folding up a Sul'dahm like an origami doll is still just as simultaneously awesome and freaky as it was the first time I saw it happen.

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That was probably one of my favorite scene from season 2.

Topped only by "Softly softly from the shadows."

[DreadLord31]

Alright so I didn’t read all the posts in this thread, I’ll admit. But I just finished a rewatch of season 2 in prep for season 3 and got to get out some thoughts. 
 

#1: In the past I think my love of the books made me too critical. Season 2 is actually, for the most part, good Tv! 
 

#2: the actors/actresses did an amazing job; Egwene, as a damane, wow. Madeline is amazing. The facial expressions. The hand shaking as she finally touches the vase & then screaming. The “steel” in her. So well done. 
 

#3: what the writers did with the Forsaken (mostly) is actually an improvement on the books. Establishing that Ishy and Lanfear and Lews were the best of friends (sort of) and that Lews and Lanfear really want to turn Rand to the dark rather than hurt him. But they have different motivations and actually even work against each other. And then that Moggy and the other Forsaken won’t be as … helpful. All of it. Well done. 
 

#4: the special effects and fighting were better than I remember when I watched it the first time. 
 

Ok. But now I do have to get in a couple criticisms too. Episode 8 was bad writing. Truly. And my #1 critism would be … What in the world are the writers doing with the mechanics/lore of the Shadar Logoth dagger? 
 

I mean even if I knew nothing about it and set aside all book knowledge… I would go “ummm - so it’s tainted and evil and you can’t touch it - but you can put it on a pole and then you’re fine?” 
“And Fain would just - give it up - cause Ishy said so?” 
“And It’s a lightsaber that melts through things and insta kills - but it’s not a insta kill on Rand?” 
 

#2 would be … “so Moiraine must be the most powerful channeler ever right? I mean, from a beach a long ways away she takes down a fleet of ships that had 14 channelers on it shielding Rand. And then she puts that dragon in the sky from that distance too? All the damane just shoot fireballs from a tower and then can’t block stones flying at them. Power wise she’s got to be the best right?” 
 

#3 would be … “wow, for a Forsaken, Ishy must be a terrible fighter huh? Cause it seems like Lanfear can flick of the wrist handle Moiraine and Suian and whoever she wants, but Moggy. But Ishy can’t figure out how to get through Egwene’s shield? And then Perrin getting a hero of the horn shield somehow helps her shield?”

 

Alright. Ending on a positive note. Season 1 got screwed up with Covid and Barney leaving. Season 2 got screwed up with a writers strike. 
 

I think S3 can be really good! The actors and actresses are amazing. Most of the writing has been very good. I’m really looking forward to seeing more of the Forsaken and more of Matt & Perrin (2 of my fav book characters of all time)! 
 

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 2/20/2025 at 5:43 AM, DreadLord31 said:

3: what the writers did with the Forsaken (mostly) is actually an improvement on the books. Establishing that Ishy and Lanfear and Lews were the best of friends (sort of) and that Lews and Lanfear really want to turn Rand to the dark rather than hurt him. But they have different motivations and actually even work against each other. And then that Moggy and the other Forsaken won’t be as … helpful. All of it. Well done. 

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Yeah, I found the Forsaken scene to be quite fun. I don't think I'd be upset if they decided to make it all about the Chosen and how they would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids... 🤔

[Mailman]

I always loved getting more information on the forsaken in the books and its certainly an area that could be expanded in the show, time constraints could be a major issue though.

[DreadLord31]

  On 2/20/2025 at 8:29 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

Yeah, I found the Forsaken scene to be quite fun. I don't think I'd be upset if they decided to make it all about the Chosen and how they would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids... 🤔

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 Chosen? We better keep an eye on you! 🙂 

 

The “will you betray me?” -Ishy 

“Obviously.” - Lanfear 

 

was good writing 

[DreadLord31]

  On 2/20/2025 at 10:14 AM, Mailman said:

I always loved getting more information on the forsaken in the books and its certainly an area that could be expanded in the show, time constraints could be a major issue though.

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Yes for sure. Biggest weakness of the show is they’re trying to do too much with not enough time. 
 

Having 1 dimensional antagonists was Jordan’s weakness. What the show is doing with the Forsaken is the strongest point of their writing. 
 

However, what the show is doing with lore/mechanics is … well … bad.
 
Right of the gate having “the Dragon could be female” … no. That the male side is tainted and the Dragon destined to go mad is VERY central to the whole story. 

The Shadar Logoth dagger … no. Again, central to Matt’s arc and they’ve royally botched it. 

Burnout and healed from death … no. Central to Nyn’s arc … and they’ve botched it.  

OP power levels and distances … no. What Moiraine did at end of S3 makes her so much more powerful than anybody thus far in the show - and that makes no sense even within the show. 
 

 

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

  On 2/20/2025 at 5:43 AM, DreadLord31 said:

Alright so I didn’t read all the posts in this thread, I’ll admit. But I just finished a rewatch of season 2 in prep for season 3 and got to get out some thoughts. 
 

#1: In the past I think my love of the books made me too critical. Season 2 is actually, for the most part, good Tv! 
 

#2: the actors/actresses did an amazing job; Egwene, as a damane, wow. Madeline is amazing. The facial expressions. The hand shaking as she finally touches the vase & then screaming. The “steel” in her. So well done. 
 

#3: what the writers did with the Forsaken (mostly) is actually an improvement on the books. Establishing that Ishy and Lanfear and Lews were the best of friends (sort of) and that Lews and Lanfear really want to turn Rand to the dark rather than hurt him. But they have different motivations and actually even work against each other. And then that Moggy and the other Forsaken won’t be as … helpful. All of it. Well done. 
 

#4: the special effects and fighting were better than I remember when I watched it the first time. 
 

Ok. But now I do have to get in a couple criticisms too. Episode 8 was bad writing. Truly. And my #1 critism would be … What in the world are the writers doing with the mechanics/lore of the Shadar Logoth dagger? 
 

I mean even if I knew nothing about it and set aside all book knowledge… I would go “ummm - so it’s tainted and evil and you can’t touch it - but you can put it on a pole and then you’re fine?” 
“And Fain would just - give it up - cause Ishy said so?” 
“And It’s a lightsaber that melts through things and insta kills - but it’s not a insta kill on Rand?” 
 

#2 would be … “so Moiraine must be the most powerful channeler ever right? I mean, from a beach a long ways away she takes down a fleet of ships that had 14 channelers on it shielding Rand. And then she puts that dragon in the sky from that distance too? All the damane just shoot fireballs from a tower and then can’t block stones flying at them. Power wise she’s got to be the best right?” 
 

#3 would be … “wow, for a Forsaken, Ishy must be a terrible fighter huh? Cause it seems like Lanfear can flick of the wrist handle Moiraine and Suian and whoever she wants, but Moggy. But Ishy can’t figure out how to get through Egwene’s shield? And then Perrin getting a hero of the horn shield somehow helps her shield?”

 

Alright. Ending on a positive note. Season 1 got screwed up with Covid and Barney leaving. Season 2 got screwed up with a writers strike. 
 

I think S3 can be really good! The actors and actresses are amazing. Most of the writing has been very good. I’m really looking forward to seeing more of the Forsaken and more of Matt & Perrin (2 of my fav book characters of all time)! 
 

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These were my exact thoughts, you hit the nail on the head here. I really hated that they let Egwene escape without any help at all. I think they are missing that one of the points of the books is how they all need each other to defeat the dark one and none of they can do it without help.

[DreadLord31]

WoTTv for me is like …

Going to Taco Bell. 
 

It’s good enough that I go back. It’s has its moments (blood snow, Lanfear/Ishy scene)- I crave that Crunchwrap-Supreme.  
 

And well I’m consuming it I like it and hate it at the same time (oh, Matt I love Matt - wait the Shadar Logoth dagger is a lightsaber - kinda?!) 

And half an hour after I’ve finished it, it’s back in the toilet (now that I’m reflecting on it I like it less and less)!

 

But I’ll be back! lol 😆 

[DigificWriter]

I'd forgotten just how vindicated I felt when Episode 2x07 explicitly confirmed everything that I had spent both the leadup to Season 2 and the six previous episodes of the season saying when it came to both the design and functionality of the A'dam and also explicitly confirmed everything that I continue to say about the show's interpretation of the metaphysics of reincarnation in the WoT world.

 

I also find it kind of funny how dramatically opinions have shifted when it comes to what's to come for Mat because at the time 2x07 and 2x08 aired, the general consensus was that the 'tea visions' had replaced his experiences with the twisted redstone doorframe  ter'angreal, but now everyone seems convinced that we're still getting said experiences.

 

 

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 2/20/2025 at 12:30 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Right of the gate having “the Dragon could be female” … no. That the male side is tainted and the Dragon destined to go mad is VERY central to the whole story. 

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I didn't miss a beat and jumped straight into denial.

 

Obviously this was Ishy having fun, seems right up his alley to mess with the lights prophesies.

 

It was fun to think how a made up character who cosplays as the father of lies, with one lie countless fans lost their minds.

[DreadLord31]

  On 2/20/2025 at 8:30 PM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

I didn't miss a beat and jumped straight into denial.

 

Obviously this was Ishy having fun, seems right up his alley to mess with the lights prophesies.

 

It was fun to think how a made up character who cosplays as the father of lies, with one lie countless fans lost their minds.

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I like your explanation. But I think Rafe’s “feminism” was a little too … unchecked. In S2 they even had Siuan have the line, “We would’ve been so much better off if you were a girl.” 
 

Though, with you, and extending some grace - I’ll take it as Ishy lied and Aes Sedai hubris as well… 

[DreadLord31]

  On 2/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

I also find it kind of funny how dramatically opinions have shifted when it comes to what's to come for Mat because at the time 2x07 and 2x08 aired, the general consensus was that the 'tea visions' had replaced his experiences with the twisted redstone doorframe  ter'angreal, but now everyone seems convinced that we're still getting said experiences.

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We def are getting the red stone doorframe experiences this season. The cold open just dropped and it was in the “ter’angreal” room in the WT. Time stamp 8:40. Clearly has snakes and foxes on it too. 

Edited February 20 by DreadLord31