Davram Bashere just can't possibly be a bad guy.

[GrandpaG]

He's one of my favorite characters.  Kind of a father figure.  Actually, I guess he is a father to Zarine/Faile.  We'll blame her on the mom.  Anyway, it's kind of like the guy who helped chase Fain to Falme (Ingtar?).  It hurt to learn that he worked for the shadow.

 

Bashere helped Rand...alot...physically and mentally.  He trained troops.  He fought the Seanchan.  He gave good counsel whether Rand listened or not.  The way RJ describes him makes me like him.

 

CRAP!!!  SHUCKIES!!! :o ::) :o ::) :o

 

In a different post, I said that the writers for Monk like to send me down a false trail then sneak in a sleeper as the real bad guy.  I sure hope it's not Davram!  ???

[lou]

yes, what is that bashere up to anyway? secret meetings and such. i hope it isnt as bad as it seems, but min did say "something dark in his aura"

[cloglord]

You are right, he isn't a bad guy, unless he is working for a forsaken who does not want the DO to get the seals.  In KoD's we know that the forsaken are ordered to tell all their followers to hunt for the seals, and that Demandred, I believe, had already been looking high and low for them.  Since Bashere is hiding one of the seals, and has not, as far as we know, given it to the shadow,(why else would they have broke into his tent and assaulted Diera?,) He is likely not a DF of even directly working for one of the forsaken against his will.

 

The idea I find intriquing is, what if Diera is a DF?  how would Bashere react to that?

[Child of Lir]

I agree; he isn't a Darkfriend. The "something dark" Min sees could refer to dark deeds he has to do in the name of the Light - death, battle, betrayal maybe; it could be one of many things. Remember that he is a Borderlander and they are a law unto themselves. He is Tenobia's general and must serve her and Saldaea's interets, as well as those of the Dragon Reborn. He has every reason to have secrets; not all secrets are bad.

[Shamaeso]

Not to take this offtrack but just finished a re-read of the series and I was wondering if the guy who contacted him and Davram sent his guy to might not have been Gareth Byrne...anyone else think that would be cause for secrecy?

[Child of Lir]

It would be a good reason for secrecy. Another possibility is that he has been in contact with the Borderlanders' army in Andor.

[Cybertrolloc]

Off topic:

In a different post, I said that the writers for Monk like to send me down a false trail then sneak in a sleeper as the real bad guy.

Why do they run all the good shows on Friday or Saturday night? At least it's stuck around long enough to catch the reruns..."Don't you want to be a team player?" "No." "Don't you want to appear to be a team player?" "Sure."

[cloglord]

I'm pretty sure that the man that met with Bashere in secret was Logain, they showed up in Tear together, when they tracked Rand down to there.

[lou]

min didnt see the dark aura until after bashere showed up with logain, so bashere and logain in cahoots?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm pretty sure that the man that met with Bashere in secret was Logain, they showed up in Tear together, when they tracked Rand down to there.

 

cloglord and I agree on this assessment folks, so ...  ;D

[Thorum]

I'm pretty sure that the man that met with Bashere in secret was Logain, they showed up in Tear together, when they tracked Rand down to there.

 

cloglord and I agree on this assessment folks, so ...  ;D

... Jordan won't?

[RobertAlexWillis]

If it makes you feel better to think so, Thorum ...  ;)

[Feral]

Bashere's a great character. I can't see him being a baddy and I really hope he isn't.

[Charlz Guybon]

I'm pretty sure all that the dark aura indicates is that Davram is going to die a violent death, something that's been foreshadowed for a while. Else, how could Faile inherit the broken crown. Of course Tenobia will have to die as well.

[GrandpaG]

I'm pretty sure all that the dark aura indicates is that Davram is going to die a violent death, something that's been foreshadowed for a while. Else, how could Faile inherit the broken crown. Of course Tenobia will have to die as well.

 

That would be a dark day indeed. :(

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm pretty sure that the man that met with Bashere in secret was Logain, they showed up in Tear together, when they tracked Rand down to there.

 

cloglord and I agree on this assessment folks, so ...  ;D

 

As potentially unheard of as me and RoberAlexWillis agreeing, I concur.  The most likely candidate for that meeting was Logain.  It certainly makes sense that Bashere would want to keep such a meeting secret.  I think the next time we see Bashere, they are together and they had not met before then.

 

I may be getting my Min visions out of order, but the darkness around Bashere didn't meen that he had, or would, turn bad.  She says it warns of serious trouble for Rand if Bashere should either die or turn against Rand.  She says much the same about Logain at the same time.

[mothersmilkinacup]

Pretty much anyone can be a bad guy - including Bashere.  Although that would suprise (and delight) me greatly. 

 

I just watched the last episode of Season 3 of Battlestar Gallactica - suffice it to say that the characters they revealed as bad guy Sylons (sp?) suprised the pants right off me.  Split them right down the middle of butt and now I can't wear them.

 

There will be at least one HUGE surprise like that in the finale of WOT.  I'll probably go through two pairs of pants, three pairs of underwear and one collared shirt when I read it.  I can't wait.

[lou]

I'm pretty sure that the man that met with Bashere in secret was Logain, they showed up in Tear together, when they tracked Rand down to there.

 

cloglord and I agree on this assessment folks, so ...  ;D

 

As potentially unheard of as me and RoberAlexWillis agreeing, I concur.  The most likely candidate for that meeting was Logain.  It certainly makes sense that Bashere would want to keep such a meeting secret.  I think the next time we see Bashere, they are together and they had not met before then.

 

I may be getting my Min visions out of order, but the darkness around Bashere didn't meen that he had, or would, turn bad.  She says it warns of serious trouble for Rand if Bashere should either die or turn against Rand.  She says much the same about Logain at the same time.

 

keeping a secret like that from the populous is one thing, but keeping it secret from rand? that could cost a person thier life....given his shaky sanity.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I may be getting my Min visions out of order, but the darkness around Bashere didn't meen that he had, or would, turn bad.  She says it warns of serious trouble for Rand if Bashere should either die or turn against Rand.  She says much the same about Logain at the same time.

 

Actually, neither of the viewings came with much explanation.  With Logain's, all she knows is that his aura speaks of glory.  Everything else is her speculation (and worry).  With Bashere, all she sees is "something dark".  Its not any more specific.  Again, she speculates (based on her worry) that it could mean betrayal.  She then offers her (worried) opinion that if Rand were to lose Bashere, it would be a blow.

 

Everything Min is seeing around Rand now, she sees through the lens of her own worry.  Thats why so often he has to pin her down and ask something to the effect of "Is that your opinion, or did it come with the viewing?"  And she gets sulky, but at least she's honest enough to tell him what came from where.

 

In my opinion, the most likely meaning of Min's Bashere viewing is that something bad will happen with Tenobia when Rand has the meeting with the Borderlanders.  Like they both get killed, and Perrin has to save Rand's butt again from the 13 Aes Sedai with the Borderlander army.  And then Perrin becomes King of Saldaea, etc.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

In my opinion, the most likely meaning of Min's Bashere viewing is that something bad will happen with Tenobia when Rand has the meeting with the Borderlanders.  Like they both get killed, and Perrin has to save Rand's butt again from the 13 Aes Sedai with the Borderlander army.  And then Perrin becomes King of Saldaea, etc.

 

Intriguing theory. Do you have any more evidence for it?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Here's the passage I was referring too.  I actually forget that Min add's Dobraine into the equation too.  She is worried about possibly loosing any of Dobraine, Logain or Bashere.  I don't think this is just Min's reticence to talk about the visions either.  All three are important, and any one of them could die/turn against Rand.

 

Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 24, A Strengthening Storm:  Page 547

 

"You have to do something," Min muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts. "Logain's aura still speaks of glory, stronger than ever. Maybe he still thinks he's the real Dragon Reborn. And there's something ... dark ... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies ... I heard one of the soldiers say Lord Dobraine might die. Losing even one of them would be a blow. Lose all three, and it might take you a year to recover."

 

If I were going to pick which of the three is most likely to turn on Rand at this point it would be Logain as Rand seems intent on driving him to it.  I don't see it happenning as a desire for power on Logain's part but an action taken for "the good of mankind" as Logain sees Rand as having lost it.

[Rowan]

Here's the passage I was referring too.  I actually forget that Min add's Dobraine into the equation too.  She is worried about possibly loosing any of Dobraine, Logain or Bashere.  I don't think this is just Min's reticence to talk about the visions either.  All three are important, and any one of them could die/turn against Rand.

 

Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 24, A Strengthening Storm:  Page 547

 

"You have to do something," Min muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts. "Logain's aura still speaks of glory, stronger than ever. Maybe he still thinks he's the real Dragon Reborn. And there's something ... dark ... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies ... I heard one of the soldiers say Lord Dobraine might die. Losing even one of them would be a blow. Lose all three, and it might take you a year to recover."

 

If I were going to pick which of the three is most likely to turn on Rand at this point it would be Logain as Rand seems intent on driving him to it.  I don't see it happenning as a desire for power on Logain's part but an action taken for "the good of mankind" as Logain sees Rand as having lost it.

 

Well it would be a blow to lose any, Logain has the Black Tower mostly in his hands, Davram has the Saldean Army and I forgot who Dobraine is, but those are the people he uses to fight!

[Guest cwestervelt]

Logain does not have most of the Black Tower in his hands.  Neither does Taim.

 

Logain controls about 1/3 of the Black Tower.  Taim has roughly another 1/3 in his group.  The rest are sitting on the fence.  The Black Tower is almost a perfect parallel to the White Tower with about 1/3 being with the Egwene and Salidar, 1/3 supporting Elaida and 1/3 waiting to join the side of the victor.

[Rowan]

Sorry thats more correct

[RobertAlexWillis]

The important thing to remember is that the sentences you put in bold, cwestervelt, are not Min's visions, but her opinions.  And those opinions are rooted in worry.

 

Something "dark" doesn't have to mean betrayal.  And neither does Logain's future glory.

 

For Captain Guybon:

 

There isn't any real solid evidence for what I proposed, just a pattern converging.

 

1) Something bad will happen to or with Bashere.

 

2) Tenobia's pissed at him.

 

3) There are 13 Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders, the same number who freed Taim, appearing of their own accord in the same region, with an agenda that no one knows about.

 

4) Rand is going to have to meet with those Borderlanders, and is likely to expect Bashere to make it easier.

 

5) Aes Sedai are going to hurt Rand again, and Perrin will have to be there to save him.

 

6) Min has viewed Perrin with the Broken Crown.  Tenobia and Bashere will both have to be dead for this to happen.

 

Throw all those things in the pot, and you have a potentially disastrous stew.  I personally think that Demandred is the hand behind those 13 Aes Sedai (who would be Black Ajah), and that when Rand tries to meet with the Borderlanders, they'll strike.  Bashere will be stuck between obeying his Queen (who will be under the control of the Black Sisters) and helping Rand.  Whatever goes down gets them both killed, and Rand captured or driven out (this is where I see Perrin's Wolfdream about Rand wearing "rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage cover[ing] his eyes" being fulfilled).  Perrin then arrives, looking for Rand, with Faile and his now preeminent claim to the Broken Crown (and sufficient firepower in his retinue to deal with whatever Black Sisters are left).  Perrin saves Rand, fulfilling Min's viewings about the Broken Crown and the second instance where Perrin has to save Rand from Aes Sedai.

 

My interpretation of events is not the only one, to be sure.  This is simply my opinion, but I think it fits.