WS Mechanics Discussion

[Wayfarer]

Suggestion about WS

 

May be worth transitioning to the old WS 20 system.  Refer to Weapon Scores & Blademasters post for character creation.

 

The current system is good in that it doesn't do the old AD&D style of one weapon only, so you are great with a longsword but curiously have no proficiency with short sword. However, the proficiency scaling doesn't work particularly well for an all-rounder.  First prof has your max WS, drop off by 2 for the second and an additional point for each proficiency.

 

What it effectively means is that for the soldier who has average proficiencies across most weapons can't exist.  Lets say . . . WS 4, Sword, just under the skill of someone who can teach.  WS 2 Stave, WS 1 Dagger.  That doesn't work particularly well for those characters that have had access to extensive training.  Not even just a traveller who has picked up tricks along the way, lets say WS 4 Stave, WS 2 Bow/Crossbow, WS 1 Dagger.

 

My suggestions is the WS 20 system of old may be useful here.  Split it into four sections

Beginner 1-5, Soldier 6-10, Veteran 11-15, Blademaster 16-20.

 

Use the same drop off system, and you can have a soldier who is handy with a sword, mace and bow, but a little sketchy on the others.  As they become a veteran, they have their favoured weapons as an experienced soldier but can have proficiencies elsewhere reflective of their experience if they are desired by the player and fit the character.

 

In theory, someone could have all the proficiencies if they went high enough, but that in itself isn't a major hassle.  Say for example:

WS 15 - Sword

WS 13 - Hand to Hand
WS 12 - Daggers

WS 11 - Bow/Crossbow
WS 10 - Mace/Hammer/Axe

WS 9 - Shield

WS 8 - Spear

WS 7 - Stave

 

Has a wide range of experience, but not amazing at everything.

 

I would suggest that if anyone reaches the Blademaster level of ability that perhaps other proficiencies could be lifted further because a fighter is going from the weapon being a tool to simply an extension of them, but I'm more concerned with the beginners and soldier level characters rather than veterans and blademasters.

 

At anyrate, that is the basic thought.

Edited January 14 by Wayfarer

[Arie]

I'm going to break this off to another thread, because it's worth talking about but it's not about the story we want to tell. It's a mechanics thought. ❤️

 

@Wayfarer

Edited January 14 by Arie

[Arie]

I can see where you’re going with this, and I expected a little imbalance at the beginning. (New systems rarely work right out of the gate). 

 

That said, 20 is a LOT. I would prefer a maximum of 15 (lets take your 20 and my 10 and meet half way). And maybe group up the weapons a bit? (Throw/Piercing/Blugeon/Heavy/ETC) and lean a little back into the discipline specialties where a bit of RP training could gain someone the “Dual Weapons” or “Unarmed Brawler”, etc.

 

I would rather lean towards ‘specialties’ than expanding the scoring. It’s just another number, vs a more rounded skillset.

Edited January 14 by Arie

[Wayfarer]

There are multiple ways to work with the 15, lets say we split it into three brackets:

- Basics

- Intermediate

- Expert

 

Maybe have tag it so that as you reach a certain point, you get to pick up more. Lets say 2-3 in basics, hit intermediate you pick up more, when you hit expert you can pick up more again.

 

I'm not sure if the discipline specialties add so much  in that . . . the system is there to help regulate players in terms of their writing, but it doesn't actually function as a game mechanic.  For example, we put two of our characters together, there is no dice roll, even if your WS is higher your character doesn't wing unless we decide to write together that they win.  The old discipline style helped give flavour to the writing, but that in itself didn't decide who won or lost, the writers did.

 

So I think it is more a question of how much the system will be useful to scaffold people in their writing versus how much it may need to be regulated.  Realistically, even a simple WS with no secondaries could effectively work, people just decide what their characters are good with and what they are not.  If someone is going to be amazing at everything, chances are they will end up amazing only with themselves because people won't play with someone who never loses and never gives back.  In terms of admin it would definitely be a lot easier, tracking one number rather than 8.

[Arie]

I like the idea of tracking 1 vs multiple numbers. though I'm a "track your own" kind of person. 

 

I'll do an adjustment in Staff and see how it looks with this. 

Sill open to other suggestions! 

( @Elessar )

[Matalina]

Just throwing it out there since I've been using the Cypher System for my own writing combat and magic systems and stuff in my fiction I like the way they break things out.

 

There are three types of weapons.  Light, Medium, Heavy (each one doing X amount of damage but not relevant here).  And there are a few different types of damage types.  (bladed, bludgeoning and ranged)  I will go to say that you can break up bladed into slicing versus thrusting/piercing.  So 4 types of damage.

 

They have an inability with, practiced with, trained with and specialized in mechanic no numbers.  I really like this system.  So a warrior is practiced with all weapons (they don't get any penalties) but they can only be trained in a specific type of weapon... ie: a light slicing weapon (a short sword, a dagger), but they aren't trained in a broadsword which would be considered a medium slicing weapon or a Greatsword as that's a heavy slicing weapon but they can still use it with no penalty, they just are as good at it.  There is also a trained with swords mechanic so no matter if it's a light, medium or heavy they are trained with it it I would say that a sword in this case would need to be slicing or thrusting as the swords are different in predominate usage.

 

https://callmepartario.github.io/og-csrd/#equipment-weapons Weapon explanation
 

Edited January 17 by Matalina

[Arie]

Noting, I haven't been ignoring this. I'm just a little stretched atm so I'll re-poke at this soon??

 

I like where both suggestions go, though I think for -some- consistency purposes having a WS number is important to players here. So that is a primary part that I want to keep.

Edited January 28 by Arie

[Arie]

Okay, some brain power left for the day. Here's a summary of what we're looking at so far.  @Matalina @Wayfarer @Cass

 

Scale can be per weapon, per weapon type, or full total across the board. It's this that likely will be our more sticking point and application.

 

I'm pulling "Blademaster" out of the number system entirely. It's more title anyway and in the old system, it was something that can be lost, which doesn't make sense as it is more of a reputation.

 

"Current" Scale:

• 0 - You have received no Training.
• 1-3 - (Trainee) You are aware of the basics in terms of care and where the pointy end goes.
• 4-6 - (Average Skilled) You know your forms, you are skilled in battle and one-on-one. 
• 5 - You are skilled enough to teach.
• 7-8 - Your skills are renown in your skills, and are actively sought out as a teacher and for duals.
• 9-10 - You are the best of the best in your skills, and are revered for your knowledge in your weapon. 

 

Numerical Scales:

0-10

0-15

1-20

 

Ranks/Ability:

Untrained, Basics, Skilled, Teacher, Renown, Revered (Current)

Beginner, Soldier, Veteran, Blademaster

Inability with, Practiced with, Trained with, and Specialized

Basics, Intermediate, Expert

 

Weapon Types:

Light, Medium, Heavy (and Range)

 

Weapon Properties:

Slashing, Stabbing, Crushing, Reaching

or

Slicing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, Thrusting

 

Leveling Up:

Each weapon can only be "leveled up" at a time. For every 6 threads, with 6 posts or more, a boost to your weapon may be applied. No thread can be used twice for raising a weapon score.

 

"Suggested" Weapons:

• Sword
• Stave
• Archery (Bows & Crossbows)
• Daggers
• Spear
• Shield
• Mace/Axe/Hammer
• Unarmed/Martial

 

 

Edited February 4 by Arie

[Wayfarer]

A suggestion would be that after a certain point it isn't tied to how much you posted, but by staff estimation of the character's progression.  To what degree that is writing versus activity I am not sure how I'd go, a younger me would have said writing mainly but I think that may get in the way of fun a bit.  But a balance of believable RP that sells it for the character with being active and involved, that I think would work.

 

Numerical scale to 15 I think, that way you split into three types basic/intermediate/pro.  It has just enough breadth to make each area of progression meaningful, but not so much to be overbearing.  In theory. 🙂

[Arie]

Okay, so Blademaster is the most ‘common’ used term, but Weaponmaster I think can be the loose equivalent for individuals wanting to pursue a different weapon style.

Spoiler

 

OR

 

 

Blademaster is a cultivated group that is a known title, and other weapon-types are just better at holding onto their secrets. XD

 

Anyway, I digress.

 

Let’s default with 0-15. With the following starting points.

 

Previously: 0-4 for NEW characters, 1 additional if willing to actively teach/train with new characters in a ranked role. (Which I will try to knock out this weekend.)

 

NEW: 0-9 for New Players, 0-13 for New Characters of previously established Players, No limit on transferring Legacy Characters.

 

WEAPON SKILL/SCORE (WS)

 

BASIC/UNTRAINED/PASSING ABILITY - No Group Limitations

ALL NEW Biographies will fall under this category, with history to reflect active skill development.

0 - No working knowledge of weapons. 

1 - Passing Knowledge - You can chop wood, chicken, heads, etc. Hammering nails isn’t that difficult either.

2 - You’ve held a weapon, and you can even hit immobile objects. Trick shots are fun but you’re working on it.

3 - You understand more about weapon safety and what NOT to do. Carve a decent fruit statue, fillet a fish in the wild and not ruin it.

4 - Holding a weapon is starting to feel more intuitive. You understand that the sharper the knife the less you cry when cutting onions. And you’re really fast at it. 

 

TRANSITIONAL - Finding a Teacher (Roleplay Requirement)

5 - Life skills are not the same as disciplined skills. Either you have found a teacher and have come to understand that you have so much more to learn, OR you have found yourself in a situation that you realize your skills can not hold up against a skilled opponent.

 

INTERMEDIATE/TRAINING/SKILLED - Some Group Limitations 

6 - Few things teach you how to learn more than actually teaching the basics to the new kids. Congratulations, you are still hammering out the basics but you’re much faster than the new kid. 

7 - 

8 - 

9 - 

 

TRANSITIONAL - Acknowledgement (Roleplay Requirement)

10 - You have done the work and it’s starting to pay off. Maybe your pay is better, people are betting you in fights and the odds are more in your favor. That promotion to the next military rank has been approved! While you understand that you still have much more to learn you certainly are no slouch!

 

PROFESSIONAL/SEASONED/ADVANCED - GROUP LIMITATION

11 - 

12 -

13 - 

 

 

MASTERY - GROUP LIMITATION (Roleplay Requirement)

14 - 

15 - 

 

 

WEAPON EXPERIENCE (WE) or LOG (WL)

UNLIMITED (Maybe?) (1-5)?

 

Spoiler

Offense, Defense, Tactics. 

 

Not every aspect of weapon skill can be summed up in a simple score or number. Experience can say a lot about a character and how they work in relation to their surroundings and each other. Not every battle is done with a blade, often the mind learns just as much as the body. 

 

 

Points can be learned in Offense, Defense OR Strategy as you gain ranks in your weapon score. 

 

(To develop more later… I have to run to work)

 

 

Roleplay Requirements

These are specific Roleplay designed to both celebrate but also acknowledge the work a character puts into growth. These are single Roleplay that MUST be completed in full before transitioning into the next rank. Their completion must also be verified by a Staff Member before continuing. 

 

Biographies that Surpass this number would need Staff Approval.

 

Group Limitations

Weapon training is universal, but should not be the priority of everyone. A character should reflect this, but also understand that a character incredibly skilled in knives with cooking is not the same as someone skilled in daggers for killing. 

 

All non-military groups cannot surpass WS 10. Exceptions must be Staff Approved.

 

 

Edited February 17 by Arie

[Wayfarer]

A note about the offense/defense/strategy component, I think that may be adding more the system than is required.  People can reflect that in their stories without needing to have it measured (hopefully).  Also, it adds a barrier for new players because they will then need to learn what that additional component is, how it is applicable and then navigate its use when negotiating with other players.  May be more work than reward.

[Cass]

I actually really like the idea of highlighting the skill differences between things like offense/defense vs. strategy etc. but agree making it another 'official' number might be a deterrent. Maybe the concepts could be worked into a general 'WS advice/considerations' post in the library?

 

As for the rest of the WS discussion, I'm still very hesitant to see things stay rigid or demanding for players at this stage - I honestly would prefer removing the restrictions on new characters/players to have a high weapons/OP score - and allow this straight off the bat based solely on the character's backstory and willingness to get active and RP.

 

(For me the focus and fun/ 'play' in rp has always been about the writing scenarios themselves, not the task of leveling a character up through requirements - and as much as I ❤️ DM RP, 'dragging' chars through 'requirements' has, often, almost 'killed' enjoyment for me, so I very much understand how this might be a deterrent/people might hate starting there).

 

So, maybe we could we make it that, at least in these early stages, 'working' up the ranks is optional for X number of characters per player, and like with OP, players can have higher starting WS for their new characters if they want, but with other 'requirements', like:
 

- character backstory must match the chosen score;

- character must be well-rounded, not a 'godder'/'Mary Sue'

 

?

[Arie]

What if offense/defense vs. strategy was a scale instead of a number? 

 

Hmmmm.. i have idea how that could look but I'm going to let it stew a moment...

Edited February 13 by Arie

[Matalina]

Personally I don't think strategy should be part of weapon score.  You can be strategic without knowing anything at all about weapons.  You can be strategic with your use of OP.  Or how you plan your next meal.  There  is a 3 element to weapons knowledge I agree but it's not really strategy?  it's really tactics.  Went to AI for a better explanation:

 

Quote

In summary, while strategy sets the overall direction and goals, tactics are the specific actions taken to execute that strategy and achieve short-term objectives. Strategy focuses on the long term and the big picture, while tactics are concerned with the here and now, optimizing resources and actions to achieve immediate results.

If you want the bullet point list break down I can post it too but this is pretty much what I was leaning at.

[Matalina]

And as a side note this is kinda where the disciplines fell in.  Kinda gave you a generic idea of what your character is good at and what they may not be so good at.  Numbers are all well and nice, but I think they get in the way sometimes.

 

I'm still in favor of the inability, practiced, trained and specialized method the Cypher system uses for all skills.  I'm not saying get rid of the number, we need an easy way to determine who is better than who and that's what the WS is.  

I'll use Kai as an example under the 0-15 proposed.

Kai has a WS of 6 he's trained, can probably pass on some tips to those lesser skilled but he's by no means great barely average.

But he's trained in quarterstaff and short sword.

As a trained warrior he is probably practiced with most light or medium slashing sword - meaning he could pick a long sword or long knife/dagger and use it well.  Not as good as his short sword bout enough  he won't hurt himself or others unintentionally.

Likely practiced with spear and thin pole arm liked weapons.

And since he's still not great he's practiced in offense and defense.  Probably now just starting to focus on one or the other as he decides where he wants to go with his ability.

He's got an inability with heavy weapons.  Not that he can't use them, he just can't really do it well.  In Cypher an inability in a skill hinders the action but doesn't mean you can't try it, just that it's harder.  So inability might not be the right word... untrained probably fits better

Edited February 13 by Matalina

[Arie]

4 hours ago, Matalina said:

tactics

 

That was the word I was hunting for but brain didn't connect. 🙂

 

I think we can find a happy medium here, it's just going to take another hammer or two to make it fit our needs.

[Arie]

Okay, re-working some of this... May need help on some of the numerical descriptors. (ish...)

 

With the following starting points:

 

Previously: 0-4 for NEW characters, 1 additional if willing to actively teach/train with new characters in a ranked role.

 

NEW: 0-9 for New Players, 0-13 for New Characters of previously established Players, No limit on transferring Legacy Characters.

 

WEAPON SKILL/SCORE (WS)

 

BASIC/UNTRAINED/PASSING ABILITY - No Group Limitations

ALL NEW PLAYER Biographies will fall under this category, with history to reflect active skill development.

Weapons: Limited to 2 weapons; 1 Practiced, 1 Trained.

0 - No working knowledge of weapons. 

1 - Passing Knowledge - You can chop wood, chicken, heads, etc. Hammering nails isn’t that difficult either.

2 - You’ve held a weapon, and you can even hit immobile objects. Trick shots are fun but you’re working on it.

3 - You understand more about weapon safety and what NOT to do. Carve a decent fruit statue, fillet a fish in the wild, and not ruin it.

4 - Holding a weapon is starting to feel more intuitive. You understand that the sharper the knife the less you cry when cutting onions. And you’re fast at it. 

 

TRANSITIONAL - Finding a Teacher (Roleplay Requirement)

Weapons: Limited to 3 weapons; 1 Practiced, 2 Trained.Unlimited Untrained.

5 - Life skills are not the same as disciplined skills. Either you have found a teacher and have come to understand that you have so much more to learn, OR you have found yourself in a situation where you realize your skills can not hold up against a skilled opponent.

 

INTERMEDIATE/TRAINING/SKILLED - Some Group Limitations 

Weapons: Limited to 4 weapons; 1 Practiced, 2 Trained, 1 Proficient.

6 - Few things teach you how to learn more than actually teaching the basics to the new kids. Congratulations, you are still hammering out the basics but you’re much faster than the new kid. 

7 - Training is one thing, Experience is another. Somehow those skills are sticking and are now more natural in movement than forced, and instincts are no longer so clumsy. Or so you feel.

8 - 

9 - 

 

TRANSITIONAL - Acknowledgement (Roleplay Requirement)

Weapons: Limited to 5 weapons; 3 Trained, 2 Proficient..

10 - You have done the work and it’s starting to pay off. Maybe your pay is better, people are betting you in fights and the odds are more in your favor. That promotion to the next military rank has been approved! While you understand that you still have much more to learn you certainly are no slouch!

 

PROFESSIONAL/SEASONED/ADVANCED - GROUP LIMITATION

Weapons: Limited to 5 weapons; 2 Trained, 2 Proficient, 1 Specialized. Unlimited Practiced.

Discipline: Assign a Unique Discipline.

11 - 

12 -

13 - 

 

MASTERY - GROUP LIMITATION (Roleplay Requirement)

Weapons: Limited to 5 weapons; 3 Proficient, 2 Specialized.

14 - 

 

GRAND-MASTERY - GROUP LIMITATION (Roleplay Requirement, Staff Approval)

Weapons: Limited to 5 weapons; 2-3 Proficient, 2-3 Specialized.

15 - 

 

 

 

Character Example

Using an NPC - Everett Whidbey - as an example as a Trainee, this is how his Weapon Score looks. His only skill is in Swords.

 

Everett Whidbey

WS - 5

Trained - Sword

Practiced - Shield

 

Using an old character - Cairma Vishnu - as an example of an Experienced Blademaster, this is how her Weapon Score could looks. She was rather unique in comparison to Everett's desire to be simple and defensive.

 

Cairma Vishnu

Furyforged Berserker - Blademaster

WS - 14

Specialized - Zwhwilander (Bastard Sword), Dual Swords

Proficient - Daggers

(Formerly a member of the Ren'shai)

 

Note: Just because a character can train in 5 weapons, they do not have to train in 5 weapons.

 

WEAPON DISCIPLINE:

Not every aspect of weapon skill can be summed up in a simple score or number. Experience can say a lot about a character and how they work in relation to their surroundings and each other. Not every battle is done with a blade, often the mind learns just as much as the body. 

 

Moreso, no two warriors are truly alike. Defining a particular discipline is up to each player, or may adopt the discipline of another through roleplay.

 

Disciplines must have a basic "Title" and generalized description to be considered Official.

 

Roleplay Requirements

These are specific Roleplay designed to both celebrate but also acknowledge the work a character puts into growth. These are single Roleplay that MUST be completed in full before transitioning into the next rank. Their completion must also be verified by a Staff Member before continuing.

 

Group Limitations

Weapon training is universal, but should not be the priority of everyone. A character should reflect this but also understand that a character incredibly skilled in knives with cooking is not the same as someone skilled in daggers for killing. 

 

ALL non-military groups cannot surpass WS 10. Exceptions such as Cultural Nobility and Story need to be approved by Staff.

 

Leveling Up:

Previously: Each weapon can only be "leveled up" at a time. For every 6 threads, with 6 posts or more, a boost to your weapon may be applied. No thread can be used twice for raising a weapon score.

 

NEW: A Weapon Score can be "leveled up" from ANY Thread. For every 5 threads, with 5 posts or more by your character, you may raise your score. {At this time, we are allowing 3 threads that have 8 posts or more by your character too.}

 

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~

 

I -think- that balances almost everyone's suggestions.

Edited February 18 by Arie

[Wayfarer]

Read over, one added note.  

 

ALL non-military groups cannot surpass WS 10. Exceptions must be Staff Approved.

 

I would suggest that nobility be exempted, they aren't military but there is an expectation amongst most nobles to be able to handle a blade without necessarily having military service.

[Arie]

 

3 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

ALL non-military groups cannot surpass WS 10. Exceptions must be Staff Approved.

 

I would suggest that nobility be exempted, they aren't military but there is an expectation amongst most nobles to be able to handle a blade without necessarily having military service.

 

That's it? XD 

I mean, exceptions being 'staff approved' can easily encompass that when asked. Having it as a default does lead to some abuse of the rule.

 

But, do you like it otherwise?

[Wayfarer]

Yes.  System has more latitude than the original, and systems to me for writing are only there to guide.  At the end of the day, the writers determine who wins or loses, not the system.  The system just guides you on what is reasonably expected of a character's ability, but you can always add environmental or outside factors if you want to win against terrible odds, or faceplant it in the face of what should have been easy. 🙂

 

If I had to really look for a nitpick, I'd say that I'd up the weapon limits for Master and possibly remove them outright for a Grandmaster.  They live their training and experience, someone who has gotten to that stage could reasonably be expected to have trained beyond five types of weapons.  I'd also possibly remove shield altogether, using a shield with spear, axe or sword has its own nuances and could just fold into those weapons.  That then leaves:

 

 

• Sword
• Stave
• Archery (Bows & Crossbows)
• Daggers
• Spear
• Mace/Axe/Hammer
• Unarmed/Martial

[Arie]

I mean, that many weapons feels... excessive. XD

[Matalina]

I think you've misunderstood the use of inability.  Most people have an inability with weapons.  If it's not listed in your proficiencies you have an inability in it.  

 

So your guy with the shield inability says he can't use the shield well.  Practiced is the term of being okay in it's use but not highly proficient.  If you want a 4 tiered system I'd say practiced, trained, proficient, specialized and inability means you can use it but you really shouldn't.  If it's listed it's a like an ability with in the ability say you are proficient with swords, but you can't use the heavy weapons to save your life cause you are a weak  or something.  Then you'd list inability with heavy swords.  

[Arie]

I think I did, I'll go adjust it. I considered it at the time, but honestly, my mind isn't working on all levels like it normally is. (hush you...)

 

Aside that, is that a better balanced system?

 

  

10 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

• Sword
• Stave
• Archery (Bows & Crossbows)
• Daggers
• Spear
• Mace/Axe/Hammer
• Unarmed/Martial

 

 

Even at a casual glance, Stave/Spear can be reached items. Martial/Daggers can also be a combined skill as well.

 

___ Okay, I edited it with the following:

 

Changed out the Untrained. Added "unlimited" Inability and Practiced to two areas.. Anything else?

Edited February 18 by Arie

[Wayfarer]

Actually, if we combine daggers/unarmed as well as spears/staves, you have five categories. 🙂  So it becomes in close, bladed weapons, momentum weapons, ranged weapons and reach weapons.

[Arie]

Voila! 

 

Any other arguements? XD