Preferred Evil

[Cross]

so we all have them. little pleasures we enjoy that are, mostly, derided by society as a whole. 

 

that's right, i'm talking about guilty pleasures! 

 

we're already on the dark side, might as well confess them. what are yours? AND to dig deeper, lets dissect the nature of guilty pleasures too. what makes them guilty? why do we buy into the idea that they're something to be hidden? 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Cross

[LilyElizabeth]

I have diabetes, and my guilty pleasure is carbs. I eat way too many of them. In fact, I went grocery shopping today and bought way too much Halloween candy that was half price. Its now sitting in my bedroom closet, hidden from the family. How's that for guilty?

[LedZepMan]

Beer. I like beer. My shop is right next to a liquor store too. It’s a good thing I’m the boss, cuz anywhere else ya pop a top while doing the paperwork would get ya fired

[Cross]

lol lily the candy hoarder. we got a ton left over if you need more. 

 

seems i'm mostly a guilty pleasure enabler muahhahahhaha

 

 

hmmm interesting ledzep. raises the question, how much of our guilty pleasures are based on ease of access to them?

[LilyElizabeth]

That's an interesting question, Cross. I'll bet it's a good percentage. 

[Delenn]

*is not being pulled to the Shadow by the brilliant philosophy question* 

 

I guess I should admit that I have the odd opinion that guilt has little value in general, except to prevent a person from repeating a harmful behaviour. If there is no intention to repeat the behavior then the feeling is not particularly useful to hold on to. 

 

However, I admit guilt and guilty pleasures can be used in small ways to moderate your own life. They can motivate and even guide. Be a cheeky little reward, or keep you from over doing. But it can also trip you up. Leaving a person living by shoulds and controlled by shame. 

 

The longer I look at it, the more I think guilt around pleasure is mostly a method of control. And it's something I do think of often, as it comes up in so many conversations, in various ways. But the core seems to stay the same. It is usually imposed from the outside and used to reinforce social norms (which is both a good and bad thing). But the idea of guilty pleasure in particular coming from a third party is problematic. By its very nature it automatically gives control of personal happiness to whoever created the guilt.

 

The pleasure is then controlled by the other person and can become a method of reward and punishment. If the first person 'indulges', the guilt comes in and they turn to the person who created the guilt in the first place to make it right. Usually, a further surrender of personal power follows and in place of the thing that brought them pleasure they seek the person who now controls (or forbids) the pleasure. It is easy in this way to eventually create a situation where the pleasure is replaced with the person who controls it instead. 

 

Also, I have observed that when a person does "indulge" they tend to go overboard and then they can even fall into very self destructive cycles. Where as, measured and rational enjoyment creates a more sustainable enjoyment of the..... pleasure. 

 

 

[Cross]

very true, though i suppose there needs to be some distinction or definition to what constitutes a guilty pleasure. as you've pointed out there are personal ones, (self-imposed) and societal ones (external pressure)  both of which can be healthy or dangerous. 

 

its all about degrees isnt it? 

 

the degree to which we hold them. the degree in which we allow them power. as in all, moderation is key as its all balanced on a razor's edge. 

 

societally, guilty pleasures are close kin to peer pressure i think. in fact it may well just be peer pressure in disguise. inter-changeable. as you've said it gives too much power to those imposing the idea of it being guilty. 

 

i suppose there's a couple side tangents we can explore here;

 

1. why do we feel the need to associate guilt with pleasure. they should be opposites, yet we make enjoying ourselves feel guilty. is it solely societal? or is there some innate part of us that feels guilty/selfish when we focus solely on ourselves? 

 

2. how much do you find yourself a victim of societies whims and thoughts? why does it matter to you what society says about say, enjoying taylor swift, or indulging in cartoons as an adult, or secretly liking Twilight etc.  

 

3. in what cases is the surrendering of control of our pleasures healthy? 

[EirikDaude]

1 hour ago, Cross said:

very true, though i suppose there needs to be some distinction or definition to what constitutes a guilty pleasure. as you've pointed out there are personal ones, (self-imposed) and societal ones (external pressure)  both of which can be healthy or dangerous. 

 

its all about degrees isnt it? 

 

the degree to which we hold them. the degree in which we allow them power. as in all, moderation is key as its all balanced on a razor's edge. 

 

societally, guilty pleasures are close kin to peer pressure i think. in fact it may well just be peer pressure in disguise. inter-changeable. as you've said it gives too much power to those imposing the idea of it being guilty. 

 

i suppose there's a couple side tangents we can explore here;

 

1. why do we feel the need to associate guilt with pleasure. they should be opposites, yet we make enjoying ourselves feel guilty. is it solely societal? or is there some innate part of us that feels guilty/selfish when we focus solely on ourselves? 

 

2. how much do you find yourself a victim of societies whims and thoughts? why does it matter to you what society says about say, enjoying taylor swift, or indulging in cartoons as an adult, or secretly liking Twilight etc.  

 

3. in what cases is the surrendering of control of our pleasures healthy? 

Well, I suspect it has all to do with peer pressure and the social contract, as you briefly touched on in your post. Guilt is how the social contract is enforced, and it is only necessary to enforce it when people are trying to do something they want but society doesn't want them to. Of course this changes over time, and different groups apply different pressures. For instance I think a random westerner would feel less guilty about smoking a cigarette 50 years ago than what they would today. Similarly some cultures used to associate obesity with beauty, while today we know it is generally unhealthy to be obese so society tries to make it clear that overeating is something you should feel ashamed of. Similarly with different sexual orientations, how much responsibility to take for your kith and kin, whether anything you do to your body should be your decision etc.

 

I feel that even when society says no to something as innocent as liking cartoons as a grown-up, it is a remnant of a time when grown-ups weren't supposed to have time to do much more than care for their family and jobs and hanging on to parts of childhood went contrary to this. And even then you have famous people in the past who clearly saw the value in hanging on to more lighthearted things. CS Lewis has a famous quote for instance:

 

Quote

When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

 

But was his ability to grow up in this manner a privilege of his position in society? Would e.g. a contemporary coal miner have had the opportunity to hang on to their childhood, or would work and family have taken all their time? Tbh. I don't know enough about early 20th century England to answer that, but it is interesting to think about.

 

At any rate I agree that some balance between giving in to your urges and restraint needs to be found unless we want to live in a completely hedonistic society. And that doesn't even touch on how one's actions might affect others. Shouldn't we frown on that person wanting to drive their Porsche at 75 mph past the kindergarten? Expect them to feel bad about that? Of course this examples are codified in law, but law arises from what people in general agree one should feel guilty about.

 

Anyway to get back to the main drive of this thread, I think your example about watching cartoons as a grown-up is one of my guilty pleasures. Not something I feel all that bad about, but not something I'd bring up with most people I know either.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Certainly as you guys have said there is a societal conditioning, that things are bad, and so if we do them, we feel guilty, and through that guilt we do them less, or more realistically, we do them in secret, so society is not bothered by us. For example, take homosexuality when it was illegal let alone not socially acceptable in Britain. It did not stop people acting so, but it meant they did in secret, and the values of the society were then unchallenged.

 

But I think there is another aspect. It was brought to mind by Eirik's Porsche analogy. No in that case I would not hope they feel guilty, I would hope they would not put the children's lives at risk. I don't care how they feel about. But I think in our psyche we use guilt as a balance, to keep our core values true. We do something that we feel bad about, such as breaking our diet, or stealing, or driving too fast, or ditching a friend on a weekend because we could not be bothered. But our inner compass says we are good people. So how can we keep that statement true? Add in guilt! Ta-daaa! One easy step, we balance our transgressions so that we can honestly say we are good people. Oh, our guilt is so deep, so sharp, so weighty. If anything, we are so guilty that we are better people than those that have not transgressed, they don't understand this exquisite pain of going against our near angelic natures. It is a way of clouding the water so that we can largely do what we want. Stop smoking? It's so hard, and I feel so guilty about it, and I keep smoking. Have your cake and eat it so long as you feel guilty about it. 

 

Guilt, the answer to all our prayers. 

 

I may have run with that a little far. Perhaps I am feeling a little cynical tonight. 

[EirikDaude]

You hoping won't stop the driver speeding, but hopefully their guilt will make them abstain from doing something society deems harmful. That is why you don't steal that bar of chocolate from the store, even though you know the chances of getting caught are practically nil. Wasn't a society where no one felt guilt one of the scenarios the Dark One put up for Rand? It's been a long time since I read aMoL, and at the point where the final battle happened I was pretty much skimming it 😛

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

But guilt does not stop you doing something. Nearly by definition, you have already done it to feel guilt. And I would suggest that guilt actually makes re-offending more likely. Say you are abstaining from something (chocolate, alcohol, drugs, whatever), once you break that promise to yourself, the guilt works on our sense of resolve, makes us desire to at least get payment for our guilt. 

 

A desire to do the right thing, both can act before the wrong thing is done, and is more effective at stopping a re-offence. I cannot agree that guilt is in anyway a positive emotion. Unavoidable perhaps, but never positive. 

 

About aMoL, yes I think they felt no guilt, but they had no desire to do the right thing either. I don't remember RJ claiming that it was only the lack guilt that caused their behaviour, but I was the same as you by that stage of the book, so I am not certain. Also not sure RJ's fiction can really be used as an argument about philosophy, lol, but kudos for finding a relevant passage 🙂

[Cross]

 

38 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I cannot agree that guilt is in anyway a positive emotion. Unavoidable perhaps, but never positive. 

 

 

to this i say, is not guilt and remorse so intertwined as to be nearly the same or one the root of the other? and is not remorse a good thing? 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I just thought of a guilty pleasure - not sure if it qualifies as preferred evil.

 

Plastic bags. 

When on holiday to Greece (have not been for a while now though) and you go to a shop with fresh produce (which supermarkets don't have, there is always a farmer's vegetable stall outside the the supermarket in my experience) they have plastic bags, free to take as many as you want. And they are so thick and silky, not the nearly transparent ones back home, and all bright colours, and just lovely! And then you can use them for your dirty washing, carry stuff to the beach, separate wet swim clothes, oh, they are such a luxury... And it feels so naughty! Free plastic bags!

 

But yes plastic is bad, and cutting down is fantastic, and not going anywhere near fast enough. But just occasionally...

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:12 AM, Cross said:

 

 

to this i say, is not guilt and remorse so intertwined as to be nearly the same or one the root of the other? and is not remorse a good thing? 

Don't know why I never answered this before..

 

But no, I would say remorse is not a positive thing. Is remorse from a murderer a good thing? If someone has changed, has evolved into a person that would no longer do whatever they are remorseful for, that is a good thing. But the remorse in and of itself? I don't think it is indicative of improvement, I think it only shows we know we were wrong, that we knew before we acted and in that is no different than guilt, although perhaps not quite so self-focused.

[Cross]

remorse is not always because we knew before we acted but rather have come to know the damage of our actions afterward. you can feel guilty and not be remorseful. you cannot feel remorseful and not guilty

 

how is it bad to come to know/understand a wrong we've committed and may not have known at the time, then feel remorse for causing the pain? remorse indicates a level of empathy. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Well I think we may be getting into an argument about semantics instead of actual meaning, but what I mean is that the process of becoming a better person, whether through a change in outlook or simply learning more information, is the good thing which can cause remorse. Simply regretting doing something, or not doing something, without any actual change is not positive imo. Of course, define regret, remorse and guilt differently, even subtly, and then what I am saying does not imply. But what I mean is that any negative feeling whatever name it is given, can only be seen to be positive if it causes or was caused by a positive change. Otherwise, it is just negative. 

 

That is my take at least. I am not a fan of negative emotions and I also know how seductive they can be, so perhaps I am being a bit over-sensitive. But I think the reasoning is sound in any case.

[LilyElizabeth]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Simply regretting doing something, or not doing something, without any actual change is not positive imo. 

 

That is my take at least. I am not a fan of negative emotions and I also know how seductive they can be, 

 

Remember your audience, dear. We don't want to be positive in that way, and seduction is our way of life. 😛