Do you think Rand, Matt and Perrin are badly written characters?

[Shawlee]

1 hour ago, Yamezt said:

 

Yes, I am pretty sure that is correct. 

 

It could be only 1 PoV. The scenes I sort of recall are Pevara interacting with Tarna on Tarna's return from Salidar. Then later the Highest (forgot her name). And later one with Yukiri as they were trying to be discrete (though maybe that was Yukiri's point of view).

 

I know it is correct. I am looking at it right now.

 

And First of all the highest is Tsutama at this point when elida was in charge. 

 

I am re-reading Path at the moment, so I had the book handy, so on chapter 26, i was rigjt you see Pevare from Searins we do not get ANY Pevare PoV till Brando Sando took over.

 

 

3 hours ago, Yamezt said:

I remember struggling with Pevara's change of tone from RJ to BS

 

So, i think you were mistaken about the fact that she her tone changed in the transition from RJ to Brando. Because it is literally the difference between how people see Pevare as opposed to how Pevara really is... thats my 2 cents. 

 

Also, I am sorry, but I completely disagree with you on someone else playing androls love interest. They are my favorite Aes'Sedai/Ashaman couple. And i don't think they would've worked without either of them and their personalities. Pevara's life experience made her uniquely capable to understand and handle someone like Androl.

 

She was stonger than the rest of these Aes'Sedai in BT. Probably the strongest i think. I am getting shivers just thinking about her "turning"..

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Shawlee
I can't spell, and I am dyslexic.

[Yamezt]

6 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

we do not get ANY Pevare PoV till Brando Sando took over.

It looks like there were 3 POV by RJ (1x CoT and 2x KoD assuming the Wiki isn't in error) . Also, I'm surprised someone diligently wiki-ed POVs (fan award to that person (https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Point_of_View_Characters). :

• Pevara Tazanovni: Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 22; Knife of Dreams, Prologue, Epilogue; Towers of Midnight, Chapter 53; A Memory of Light, Prologue, Chapters 2, 3, 4, 21, 37, 41, 42

9 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

Also, I am sorry, but I completely disagree with you on someone else playing androls love interest.

 

I completely understand - I do like their relationship as I said. But would have loved it even more if it didn't have the baggage of the change in tone.

[Shawlee]

45 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

It looks like there were 3 POV by RJ (1x CoT and 2x KoD assuming the Wiki isn't in error) . Also, I'm surprised someone diligently wiki-ed POVs (fan award to that person (https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Point_of_View_Characters). :

• Pevara Tazanovni: Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 22; Knife of Dreams, Prologue, Epilogue; Towers of Midnight, Chapter 53; A Memory of Light, Prologue, Chapters 2, 3, 4, 21, 37, 41, 42

 

I completely understand - I do like their relationship as I said. But would have loved it even more if it didn't have the baggage of the change in tone.

I apologize  i keep forgetting Krife and crossroads.

[Yamezt]

Just now, Shawlee said:

I apologize  i keep forgetting Krife and crossroads.

 

There is no need for apology!

[Shawlee]

1 hour ago, Yamezt said:

It looks like there were 3 POV by RJ (1x CoT and 2x KoD assuming the Wiki isn't in error) . Also, I'm surprised someone diligently wiki-ed POVs (fan award to that person (https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Point_of_View_Characters). :

• Pevara Tazanovni: Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 22; Knife of Dreams, Prologue, Epilogue; Towers of Midnight, Chapter 53; A Memory of Light, Prologue, Chapters 2, 3, 4, 21, 37, 41, 42

 

I completely understand - I do like their relationship as I said. But would have loved it even more if it didn't have the baggage of the change in tone.

 

I will pay more attention to the change in tone you've  mentioned, on my read this time around. Crossroads & Knife is just one book away.

 

Also, I just noticed the fandom kinda hates(maybe too stronge a word, dislike maybe more appropriate) these books between Chaos and Knife. But honestly love really love them, and their details. I like the slow burn, always liked it, so I guess I am uniquely attuned to reading WoT. 😅

[Yamezt]

2 hours ago, Shawlee said:

these books between Chaos and Knife.

 

Yes, they were among my favourite too. And I love a lot of the minor characters POV

[Sarah Smith]

I have to say Mat is in my opinion one of the best characters ever written, alongside Kaladin Stormblessed and Tyrion Lannister (the latter is the clear winner every single time in my opinion, absolutely perfect character). 

 

Rand, I have a huge soft spot for. Perrin I also really love but Faile ruined him for me. 

 

Mat, however is the epitome of the reluctant hero. Never wants to get involved, very verbal about not wanting to be there, or involved, but comes through time and time again. The kind of man who goes back in to the burning building to get the cat out. 

 

In the early books he's a scoundrel, but I think that just adds to his character. He's cracking jokes just minutes before defeating Galad and giving Gwen a concussion. I just love him. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Sarah Smith

[EirikDaude]

1 hour ago, Sarah Smith said:

In the early books he's a scoundrel, but I think that just adds to his character. He's cracking jokes just minutes before defeating Galad and giving Gwen a concussion. I just love him. 

I feel the comparison Siuan made to her uncle, who said he was no hero but died trying to save some kids from a burning house is just a perfect parallell to Mat. I feel he had it in him even then, but kinda grew more into it throughout the series.

[Aan-Alone]

Poorly, or well written, the wonder-boys always seemed to work for me. Same goes for most/all of the other characters. Granted, I was to into devouring the story to consider the character's motivations. It all seemed to make sense at the time I was reading. And that sense of making sense seems to return when I reread. It all fits together. It all, they all, just seem to work; so I lean back and enjoy the adventure.

[Bugglesley]

To return all the way back to the OP and rag on the Aes Sedai a little more.. the three boys are absolutely correct to not trust Aes Sedai. A majority of the Tower (even including the Salidar rebels) would be 100% down with locking all 3 of them in a room in the basement and trusting themselves to set everything up for the boys to be let out to play when the Last Battle started. Siuan, Leane and Moiraine knew that was an awful idea... and that's why they did what they did, in finding Rand and trying to help instead of shoving him into a box right from the word go in Emond's Field. And two of them were stilled for it!

 

 

And as for Moiraine in particular, she herself would disagree with OP! She goes out of her way in book 4-5 to address how she came on too strong, how she didn't respect Rand as a person and was just trying to direct him as a tool, and she changes her approach.

 

I think OP did hit on a frustration, which is that the three buddies are never just together being buddies ever again, basically after the Stone of Tear. They have the horrible flashes of color when they think of each other, try not to, and aggressively go their own way for the majority of the pagecount, which is sad. If you think every story should be a buddy comedy.

 

The last thing I want to really dig in on is Mat. I completely understand the impulse that, after Cairhien, "Mat should be awesome and the Band of the Red Hand should be in lots of super cool battles and he should use his luck and General-memories superpowers to kick ass boyeeee." I understand this because I first read WoT when I was 16 and that's what I wanted and I was upset that Mat was such a (insert demeaning, feminizing word for coward of your choice here).

 

Upon rereading as an adult, it makes an incredible amount of sense. You know what Mat got in those memories, even more than a mind as sound for tactics as his already was for horseflesh? He remembered dying. Hundreds of times. In hundreds of battles. I want you to really internalize that;  people can struggle with trauma after one life-or-death situation. Mat is carrying around hundreds of literally unimaginable traumas (after all, I don't think any of us can remember dying), traumas specifically attached to battles! It's no wonder he fights against acknowledging or using the memories for as long as possible. Moreover, if there's one thing he understands--even when you win, if you lead in a battle, people die. Categorically. People you were responsible for. Even if you personally make it out, you have sent men to their deaths. That is its own kind of trauma, and he has thousands of that kind rattling around in his head with those bloody dice as well.

 

I'd hang around the circus too! And honestly even then, his actions during the slog aren't conscious Mat-shirking behavior... he's sent by Rand to get Elayne. The only way to get out of Salidar is to take them by Ebou Dar (he is fairly obnoxious to Egwene, but I honestly think that's a great chapter to remind the reader like.. yeah, this would be like if some random kid who just passed confirmation class and applied to Seminary sat down across from you and said he was the Pope. It's ludicrous on its face! How is he supposed to take that seriously!). He  gets caught up in the Seanchan invasion risking his life to find Olver, straight heroism, but then he's stuck acting the part and can't leave without the Aes Sedai. Once out, he's with Valan Luca's Interminable Menagerie Pt. 2 because there's no other way out that doesn't involve being tried and maximum executed by the Seanchan.

 

All in all, I wouldn't say Mat acts like an "idiot." He acts like a soldier. He desperately seeks out any possible distraction to forget the things he has to do--serving girls, dicing, horses, drink--and then when push comes to shove he bloody does what he has to.

 

I will say the only real disappointment is that the only time it would be time to say "ok no more cost of war no more grim reflections of RJ's own Vietnam experiences time to just bask in Mat and his luck and memories BTFOing overconfident dreadlord/Forsaken scum," it's in the Brando Sando books.. and he had well-documented issues in nailing down how to write Mat. So it is a little disappointing, but RJ's only real misstep in all that is dying (a controversial and poorly-received writing choice if there ever was one).

 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

My two cents on the question posed by OP is this. The characters may be frustrating and downright agonizing to read about their headspace and how they behave at times, but I don’t see any reason to make the assumption that this means they are badly written characters. I think they’re actually exquisitely written characters, because they’re so exquisitely human. 

[Figs and Mice]

On 12/31/2023 at 9:10 PM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

My two cents on the question posed by OP is this. The characters may be frustrating and downright agonizing to read about their headspace and how they behave at times, but I don’t see any reason to make the assumption that this means they are badly written characters. I think they’re actually exquisitely written characters, because they’re so exquisitely human. 

Very much agree with this. True of all the major characters , really.  I might think that some of the more minor characters (particularly sundry Aes Sedai ) come across as rather one-dimensional ; but perhaps that is mainly because unless they are given serious POV time we can't see inside their heads.

One can criticize some aspects of Jordan's work - but I don't think he can be faulted on character creation or development. They all live quite vividly and believably - at least for me.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I was just thinking about the flickerverse - due to the Flicker Ball and Street Fair going on at the moment - and I think that it is a really powerful moment in the story, but also, along with the Finns, a real drawback too. For Mat, for example, he will have seen the consequences of his negative sides in graphic detail - that would mean that a lot of them would be polished away - that this turning's Mat is nearly the best possible which would be unique to him as he comes across as a more flawed character than the others. But all the characters who went through this would go through an amazing amount of self reflection and maturing. 

 

The downside, along with Rand's visit to the Finn, and how sparing RJ is with the Prophecies of the Dragon (though I am not sure how he could get around that unless he released it as a companion publication) is that RJ does not tell us about the contents of them. Either to create suspense or simply not to belabor the scene (thousands of lives per person would take some time to recount, let alone analysize) but this means that these characters can no longer have a heart to heart with their nearest and dearest, as big chunks of them are being hidden. Mat gets around this by aggressively not thinking about any of that - but Rand cannot discuss his plans with anyone, and it all has to be a big secret as RJ was keeping the prime motivations hidden. If the Rand-Perrin-Mat triumvirate ever got together and planned to together, RJ would have to show much more of his hand than he wanted to, so they are kept apart and Rand remains infuriatingly close-mouthed.

 

But of course this is a different issue than the reluctant hero issues in the early books. As much as it can be frustrating, I think it is more convincing than the trope of usual swords and sorcery fantasy where everyone is always delighted to battle the evil god of war, are never nervous about such things as being able to talk to animals or summon spirits, or whatever else.

[Elgee]

That was really insightful! Thank you, Heavy :)

[jbinia]

Addressing early comment about how "the trio" never got together and compared notes and talked all their stuff out - 

Not given due justice is that after book 2, and then again after book 5, all three are geographically separate most or all the time. The books actually show all three having to rebuild friend groups and finding ways to share with those new friends. Perrin develops relationships with Loial and Gaul; Matt spends time with Julin, Thom, Birgitte, Talmanes and other Band commanders; Rand spends more time with Lan, Rhuarc, Avienda and the Maidens, even Asmodean to some degree.

 

It is a very human and relatable experience most people have at least once in life. The 1 pairing of characters you see this the least with is probably Nynaeve and Elayne, as they spend most of the series working together, and thus "borrow" friends-of-friends a lot but don't build as extensive secondary friend groups of their own because they depend more on each other.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yes, but there was nothing stopping them coming together. Once Rand could Travel, he could have picked them up at any point. Jordan chose to keep them apart, and when they did see each other there was generally some complicating factor to keep them apart physically or emotionally. 

 

Which I think is a bit of a shame though I understand at least some of the reasons for it. 

 

Definitely your point about the building their own relations is important. If they had stayed together most of the time the story would have been very different in structure at least. 

[Samt]

Having the big 3 meet up would have been a major feel good moment.  However, I think it would also interfere with the story.  Although the justification for not meeting is very different, I think that neither Dark Rand nor Zen Rand would arrange this meeting just for personal reasons, so we would need a pretext as to why it was necessary for them to meet to fulfill the larger plan.  I think that the fact that they implicitly trust each other completely without meeting is a big part of the story.  

 

Also, although it would feel like they have a lot to tell each other, the reader would already know everything. As such it might actually fall flat when written out, even if it feels like it should be good. (Another pretext for a recap couldn't hurt though, right?)  There would need to be an emotional payoff where they get to tell each other something that they weren't able to tell each other before so that we can see some type of personal or relationship growth.  And although we want to see them together, I can't put my finger on something in particular that was left unsaid between them.  

Edited June 19 by Samt

[Irat]

No