Do you think Rand, Matt and Perrin are badly written characters?

[STUCARIUS]

I am on book 5 and this is my second time reading the series. I understand what Robert Jordan's idea was with the reluctant hero. However, by the end of book two enough was enough. The continuation of the characters, not just stubbornly resisting the paths laid out before them, but consistently ignoring the changes that occur to them is painfully frustrating for the reader. 

It makes them appear simple-minded. Worse, it is not an accurate portrayal of a group of friends. Particularly friends who have grown up almost as brothers. Their unwillingness to discuss what is happening even among themselves rings false. I am surprised that beta readers/Editors did not make an issue with a character like Matt continuing to be portrayed like this after nearly 2 million words into the series. At least Perrin more or less accepts who he is a few books in. Rand eventually comes around. However, Matt who has the potential to be such a great character, just continues to act...well, like an idiot. 

Like I said I truly understand Robert Jordan's desire to create the "reluctant" hero. The problem is that the way they are written is more like someone trying to hide that they are schizophrenic. The portrayal just does not work. Denial in the face of everything they experience from the outset makes the characters frustrating and often unlikable.

 

Another example of a really strange disconnect psychologically is their feelings about the Aes Sedai. It makes little to no sense. Particularly with regard to Moiraine. She saves them and The Two Rivers at the beginning, then helps them continuously and they treat her with near contempt. They seem to blame her for everything that is happening. It makes no sense. I swear if I were Lan I think I would have put a sword through all three.

So why am I reading the series for the second time? Despite how badly the three boys are portrayed in the first third of the series the world, concepts and magic system are brilliantly written. I also think that for the most part the prose is just fantastic. There is a lot to learn as a writer from these books. Even the mistakes. I believe the flawed portrayal of the boys as reluctant hero's is a great lesson for aspiring authors. It is a tribute to the brilliance of the series as a whole that it overcomes so big a mis-step with its three main characters.

What do you think?

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by STUCARIUS

[Sand_]

Rand had a lot of distrust of moraine comes from the fact she was never upfront with him and when she eventually was he didn't know if he could trust her. and the aei sedai which is understandable because he knows what they do to men who could Cannel and he knew they were the true big players of the world who had there grubby mits in everything seerving their own goals but he was still making the effort to accept them because he knew the world needed to be united for the final battle he even ignored lews therins thought's and ended up in a box beaten everyday to be made into a slave to serve the aei sedai aswell as allanas forcible bond which completely truly broke the last sliver of his trust.

 

Matt's just Matt after the tower and him getting memories he also understands what they are capable and he was right if he didn't have his medallion he would of been taken by the aei sedai numerous times its why they hated/feared it he could ignore saidar and do his own thing every encounter he had with them they immediately drew upon saidar and tried to magic him 

[Sand_]

Only issue I had with perrin was Robert Jordan doing nothing with perin and Tel'aran'rhiod after book 3 all we got was not yet young bhll your to weak go back for 9 books untill sanderson came 

[books of Robert Jordan]

I disagree.

Your statements (enough was enough, brothers, beta readers, problem, does not work, makes little to no sense, badly, brilliantly, fantastic, lesson, mis-step) are far from the truth.

[Elgee]

7 hours ago, STUCARIUS said:

The continuation of the characters, not just stubbornly resisting the paths laid out before them, but consistently ignoring the changes that occur to them is painfully frustrating for the reader. 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, STUCARIUS said:

Worse, it is not an accurate portrayal of a group of friends. Particularly friends who have grown up almost as brothers. Their unwillingness to discuss what is happening even among themselves rings false.

 

8 hours ago, STUCARIUS said:

However, Matt who has the potential to be such a great character, just continues to act...well, like an idiot. 

 

It does become frustrating for us to read, but sadly this is how most humans really behave. Maybe you're a youngish person who grew up in a milieu where it's the norm to open up and discuss your feelings. That's not true of most eras, ages or eons, or most societies, even today. Especially for men, but that's how I grew up too (female, here :)).

As for Matt ... well, I know many people like that, including myself in many ways. I don't think he's badly written at all. Have you never had a friend that you just want to slap upside the ear because they continue to be their own worst enemy, despite their potential?

[Scarloc99]

The thing about WOT is that we all have so vastly differing opinions, for instance I think that the Prose at points is pretty bad, I agree the characters can get frustrating and irritating, and yet I have read it back to front now many many times, and read individual books many times more. 

 

The world and the cultures and the magic system are what pull me back more and more. 

 

I will say that when reading it a second time through always remember that it was only at book 4 that RJ knew how long his series was going to be, so he struggled to define the clear arcs earlier because he thought the next book might be the end. 

 

 

[Asthereal]

Rand is the strongest character in all of fiction, in my not so humble opinion.

 

Perrin's growth is too slow early on, and it's too fast in the Sanderson novels. There's an in world reason for Perrin being a slow learner, but from a storytelling perspective this turns into a problemover time. Not by book 5 though. His arc, while slow, is still acceptably paced in books 1 through 4. (And he isn't in book 5. He's rebuilding the Two Rivers at that time, and Jordan deliberately left that out.)

Mat from books 1 and 2 is the problem child of the group. He's immature and silly, and he gets into trouble only to need saving afterwards. I completely agree that Mat from the first two books is dubious at best. But... Jordan was aware of this, and Mat from book 3 onwards turns into a very strong character all of a sudden. In book 3 we get a glimpse of how competent Mat can be (in the scene where he defeats Gawyn and Galad with the quarterstaff, and him holding his own in conversation with Lanfear), and from there he starts to grow. He still makes stupid mistakes, and still needs saving every now and then, but we get to know him properly, and we see him change from a good-for-nothing joker into a great and loyal friend, and then onwards to a battle-hardened leader, while never really losing track of where he came from. There's a reason why Mat is a fan-favourite character.

 

As to OP's remarks:

Yes, the heroes are reluctant. They're mistrusting. They're dumb at times. Why? They're from a backwater village in the middle of nowhere, and they have no idea what's going on in the world. Their reluctance to accept their fate makes perfect sense. Their mistrust is frustrating to Moiraine, and perhaps to some readers, but no one in that situation would trust a weird wizard, considering all the prejudices they grew up with. Trust an Aes Sedai? Why? They never show up in Emond's Field and history is full of Artur Hawkwing stories about how Aes Sedai are schemers and cannot be trusted at all. Besides, they can do a thing normal people cannot. And what you don't know or understand, you mistrust. That's how human psychology works. You could argue that Jordan keeps this up for too long, but let's face it: the moment Moiraine decides - as a last ditch effort - to swear allegiance to Rand, and the subsequent Cairhien docks moment, become all the more powerful because Jordan cemented this idea into our heads so firmly.

 

So yeah, badly written? No, definitely not. Perfect for everyone? Also no, definitely not. If you don't have patience for slow arcs and extensive, repetitive descriptions, don't read WoT. Treat yourself to something that's less of an investment to read. Something that's faster paced, with less meandering sections and less subplots to distract from the core of the story. I recommend Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Also, Dune Messiah > Dune.

[EirikDaude]

6 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Rand is the strongest character in all of fiction, in my not so humble opinion.

 

Perrin's growth is too slow early on, and it's too fast in the Sanderson novels. There's an in world reason for Perrin being a slow learner, but from a storytelling perspective this turns into a problemover time. Not by book 5 though. His arc, while slow, is still acceptably paced in books 1 through 4. (And he isn't in book 5. He's rebuilding the Two Rivers at that time, and Jordan deliberately left that out.)

Mat from books 1 and 2 is the problem child of the group. He's immature and silly, and he gets into trouble only to need saving afterwards. I completely agree that Mat from the first two books is dubious at best. But... Jordan was aware of this, and Mat from book 3 onwards turns into a very strong character all of a sudden. In book 3 we get a glimpse of how competent Mat can be (in the scene where he defeats Gawyn and Galad with the quarterstaff, and him holding his own in conversation with Lanfear), and from there he starts to grow. He still makes stupid mistakes, and still needs saving every now and then, but we get to know him properly, and we see him change from a good-for-nothing joker into a great and loyal friend, and then onwards to a battle-hardened leader, while never really losing track of where he came from. There's a reason why Mat is a fan-favourite character.

 

As to OP's remarks:

Yes, the heroes are reluctant. They're mistrusting. They're dumb at times. Why? They're from a backwater village in the middle of nowhere, and they have no idea what's going on in the world. Their reluctance to accept their fate makes perfect sense. Their mistrust is frustrating to Moiraine, and perhaps to some readers, but no one in that situation would trust a weird wizard, considering all the prejudices they grew up with. Trust an Aes Sedai? Why? They never show up in Emond's Field and history is full of Artur Hawkwing stories about how Aes Sedai are schemers and cannot be trusted at all. Besides, they can do a thing normal people cannot. And what you don't know or understand, you mistrust. That's how human psychology works. You could argue that Jordan keeps this up for too long, but let's face it: the moment Moiraine decides - as a last ditch effort - to swear allegiance to Rand, and the subsequent Cairhien docks moment, become all the more powerful because Jordan cemented this idea into our heads so firmly.

 

So yeah, badly written? No, definitely not. Perfect for everyone? Also no, definitely not. If you don't have patience for slow arcs and extensive, repetitive descriptions, don't read WoT. Treat yourself to something that's less of an investment to read. Something that's faster paced, with less meandering sections and less subplots to distract from the core of the story. I recommend Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Also, Dune Messiah > Dune.

I definitely agree with this. I am currently listening to the audiobooks, and at the end of them there is an interview with Robert Jordan where he basically says the same as  you do in your penultimate paragraph about reluctant heroes. I looked around for a transcription of that interview, and what he says is:

 

"And then finally there was the thought about something that happens in Tolkien and a lot of other places. The wise old wizard shows up in a country village and says, "You must follow me to save the world." And the villagers say, "Right then, guv, off we go!" Well, I did a lot of growing up in the country, and I've always thought that what those country folk would say is, "Oh, is that so? Look here, have another beer. Have two, on me. I'll be right back. I will, really." And then slip out the back door."

 

Which I find kinda hilarious. I think there is a lot of understated humour in how he presents some of the characters and their conflicts, though perhaps sometimes he takes it a bit far or exaggerates their differences too much. And some of the conflicts are just terrible. Yes, I am looking at you Perrin and Faile...

 

I think the biggest issues I had / have with the books are not the characters, which I for the most part really like, but that the plot just grew too big and sprawling. I kinda get that it was necessary in order to create the big epic tale, but in my opinion there were just too many threads in the end, and no good way to get them all resolved.

[Scarloc99]

19 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Rand is the strongest character in all of fiction, in my not so humble opinion.

 

Perrin's growth is too slow early on, and it's too fast in the Sanderson novels. There's an in world reason for Perrin being a slow learner, but from a storytelling perspective this turns into a problemover time. Not by book 5 though. His arc, while slow, is still acceptably paced in books 1 through 4. (And he isn't in book 5. He's rebuilding the Two Rivers at that time, and Jordan deliberately left that out.)

Mat from books 1 and 2 is the problem child of the group. He's immature and silly, and he gets into trouble only to need saving afterwards. I completely agree that Mat from the first two books is dubious at best. But... Jordan was aware of this, and Mat from book 3 onwards turns into a very strong character all of a sudden. In book 3 we get a glimpse of how competent Mat can be (in the scene where he defeats Gawyn and Galad with the quarterstaff, and him holding his own in conversation with Lanfear), and from there he starts to grow. He still makes stupid mistakes, and still needs saving every now and then, but we get to know him properly, and we see him change from a good-for-nothing joker into a great and loyal friend, and then onwards to a battle-hardened leader, while never really losing track of where he came from. There's a reason why Mat is a fan-favourite character.

 

As to OP's remarks:

Yes, the heroes are reluctant. They're mistrusting. They're dumb at times. Why? They're from a backwater village in the middle of nowhere, and they have no idea what's going on in the world. Their reluctance to accept their fate makes perfect sense. Their mistrust is frustrating to Moiraine, and perhaps to some readers, but no one in that situation would trust a weird wizard, considering all the prejudices they grew up with. Trust an Aes Sedai? Why? They never show up in Emond's Field and history is full of Artur Hawkwing stories about how Aes Sedai are schemers and cannot be trusted at all. Besides, they can do a thing normal people cannot. And what you don't know or understand, you mistrust. That's how human psychology works. You could argue that Jordan keeps this up for too long, but let's face it: the moment Moiraine decides - as a last ditch effort - to swear allegiance to Rand, and the subsequent Cairhien docks moment, become all the more powerful because Jordan cemented this idea into our heads so firmly.

 

So yeah, badly written? No, definitely not. Perfect for everyone? Also no, definitely not. If you don't have patience for slow arcs and extensive, repetitive descriptions, don't read WoT. Treat yourself to something that's less of an investment to read. Something that's faster paced, with less meandering sections and less subplots to distract from the core of the story. I recommend Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Also, Dune Messiah > Dune.

It is of course all subject to opinion but I don't know about Rand being the strongest character in all fiction, I mean the Emperor of Mankind would probably chew him up and spit him out, Dr Manhatten would probably also make short work of him, thinking about just Fantasy you have the gods themselves in Percy Jackson, in Dragon Lance you have the Dragons and some of the most powerful wizards in fantasy, Quentin Coldwater in the magicians trilogy would crush him easily when he reaches his full power. 

Rand is probably not even in the top 10 most powerful/strongest characters in fantasy, let alone all fiction. 

@STUCARIUS
I always think that when critically looking at the WOT you have to take into consideration the story RJ was writing in that moment, because it changes dramatically across the first 4 books and as a result the character motivations and focus changes. 

When writing book 1 RJ did not know if there would be a sequel, he had a rough idea in mind but also purposly wrote book 1 to be a self contained high fantasy LOTR rip off because thta is what his publisher wanted and end of day he needed to make a dollar, as a result there is no real long term consideration to the prose or the characters. 

Book 2 RJ thought he had a trilogy, so he doesn't worry to much about building or focusing on many of the anciliary characters, if you consider EOTW to be fellowshp of the ring, then in the Great Hunt he finds a reason to take his Frodo (Rand) and the rest of the fellowship away from Gandalf (Moiraine) with the clear idea that she will reappear ready for the final act 3 Rand having learnt a bit about himself on his own. 

By Book 3 he knew he had a book 4 and so needed to drag things out a bit more, so takes the chance to build up Perrin and realised he needed to make Matt more then his Golumn (a role he switches to Fain). I often wonder if it had remained a 3 book story would we have seen hero Matt or would he have taken up the Padin Fain role, becoming an enemy that Rand had to kill? Anyway, book 3 he needs to make Mat more interesting, not just for readers, but for himself, he needs to also make Lan and Moiraine a bit more interesting move them beyond being Gandalf and Arragorn, and so we see the shift in characterisation of both of these. 

By Book 4 he is off to the races no longer writing book to book, he knows he can cast a wide arc over a long series and has in his mind 9 more books to tell the story, but, now he has a problem, in books 1-3 he has developed the characters expecting a 4 book series, he now needs to pull some of them back to make the arc he wanted worth reading and writing over 9 more books, he needs to dial it back. He almost needs to find reasons for Rand to stay reluctant despite proclaiming himself dragon 3 times, killing off Forsaken like he is swatting flies and just coming on so far from book 1. 

Of course the girls have a similar arc, he repeats and reuses similar tropes and plot ideas to get them to where he now needs them in the new story he is writing each time. They come across as imature, petulant, for far longer then they should and he seems to struggle to understand what their ultimate role at each step should be, again I am intrigued what the Egwene arc looked like in a 4 books story. What was her and Nynaeves end point, did Egwene replace Nyn in bonding with Rand alongside Moiraine? 

I think had RJ known he had 12 books (later 14) to tell this story in then the earlier books would have been paced differently and follow a different thread, we would have seen more of the bonds of friendship between them, and a more gradual arc and growth. Instead, by the time he knew he had more space he had already taken the characters beyond being simply friends, he had driven wedges between them emotionally and physically with location, he couldn't find a way to dial some of that back and so had to lean into Rand and Matt being distant in book 4 and 5 despite being physically close. 

So yes I agree with you but I think if we understand the context of the writing of those first 4 books we also then understand why those flaws are all present. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Asthereal]

10 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

It is of course all subject to opinion but I don't know about Rand being the strongest character in all fiction, I mean the Emperor of Mankind would probably chew him up and spit him out, Dr Manhatten would probably also make short work of him, thinking about just Fantasy you have the gods themselves in Percy Jackson, in Dragon Lance you have the Dragons and some of the most powerful wizards in fantasy, Quentin Coldwater in the magicians trilogy would crush him easily when he reaches his full power. 

Rand is probably not even in the top 10 most powerful/strongest characters in fantasy, let alone all fiction.

 

Hard disagree with everyone you mention, despite not even having read some of them. But I think that's because you misunderstand what I mean with strongest character. I mean from a writing point of view. I don't care how powerful or smart or whatever a character is.

 

A strong character is a character with a clear personality, background, hopes and dreams, flaws and limitations to overcome, things to learn, relationships to have, screw up, and then mend again, or not, and so on. Rand grows the most out of any character I've ever come across in fiction. It's always clear why he does what he does, why he feels what he feels. He is the ultimate farmboy-to-demigod, rags-to-riches character, while coping with depression, madness, paranoia and immense pressure of the fate of the world and mankind being on his shoulders.

[Scarloc99]

10 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

 

Hard disagree with everyone you mention, despite not even having read some of them. But I think that's because you misunderstand what I mean with strongest character. I mean from a writing point of view. I don't care how powerful or smart or whatever a character is.

 

A strong character is a character with a clear personality, background, hopes and dreams, flaws and limitations to overcome, things to learn, relationships to have, screw up, and then mend again, or not, and so on. Rand grows the most out of any character I've ever come across in fiction. It's always clear why he does what he does, why he feels what he feels. He is the ultimate farmboy-to-demigod, rags-to-riches character, while coping with depression, madness, paranoia and immense pressure of the fate of the world and mankind being on his shoulders.

Oh sorry I misunderstood but in that respect again I have to disagree, for the reasons given above that RJ didn't know what he was writing early on, for me personally WOT as an adult feels like a YA type novel in may ways, Rand especially frustrates me a lot, thinking again about things I have read Thomas Covenant is so well written as a character, his arc over the 3 trilogies is brilliantly done, Paul Atredies is another one, to be fair whether unconsciously or not RJ clearly fed a bit of Dune into the WOT (Freman are Aiel and Paul and Rand have similarities). Paul is even reluctant, he spends most of the start of his story trying to prevent the galaxy wide Jihad he knows his ascent will trigger. 

While her arc has not been finished yet Arya Stark also apparently has a really compelling one in the books, I have not read the books because I once started a series who's author went and died before it ended, not making that mistake again, but a friend of mine who has read WOT would put Arya's arc in the books up against anything in any great works of fiction. 

And finally the Dark Tower, Roland Deschain, end of the day when one of the best writers in history (Stephen King) writes at the peak of his power and creates one of the best book series ever written you kind of expect a complicated, deep brilliant protagonist, and you get one. 

So yes, Rand for me is a traditional fantasy hero, reluctant, becomes a powerful god like being and beats the dark one he is the definitive chosen one, but his depth for me always felt fairly shallow, like there was more to explore but RJ doesn't really do deep character dives. For me his strength is building worlds and lore, not writing deeply complex characters, it is why I am preferring the TV show in many ways, we are seeing new little nuances to everyone, especially the bad guys, but even the heroes are getting a different slightly deeper richness to them. Now I know other will disagree and that is perfectly fine, it all comes down to personal opinion on things and none of us is wrong. 

[Asthereal]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

So yes, Rand for me is a traditional fantasy hero, reluctant, becomes a powerful god like being and beats the dark one he is the definitive chosen one, but his depth for me always felt fairly shallow, like there was more to explore but RJ doesn't really do deep character dives. For me his strength is building worlds and lore, not writing deeply complex characters, it is why I am preferring the TV show in many ways, we are seeing new little nuances to everyone, especially the bad guys, but even the heroes are getting a different slightly deeper richness to them. Now I know other will disagree and that is perfectly fine, it all comes down to personal opinion on things and none of us is wrong. 

 

If Rand feels shallow to you, then my brain tells me you've read a different series than me, or you quit after book one, but then again in a different thread you mention rereading the series, which I haven't done yet. (In fact, I'm quite new to it, having only started it during the COVID lockdowns.)

So either I'll start to see your point more upon rereads, or we're never going to  agree.

 

But still, shallow? Rand? And you prefer the TV-show? 🤯🤣

Yeah, the chances of us ever agreeing are slim indeed. That's okay though.

[Scarloc99]

17 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

 

If Rand feels shallow to you, then my brain tells me you've read a different series than me, or you quit after book one, but then again in a different thread you mention rereading the series, which I haven't done yet. (In fact, I'm quite new to it, having only started it during the COVID lockdowns.)

So either I'll start to see your point more upon rereads, or we're never going to  agree.

 

But still, shallow? Rand? And you prefer the TV-show? 🤯🤣

Yeah, the chances of us ever agreeing are slim indeed. That's okay though.

It is something that has grown for me with age and re reads, I have lost track but I think I was 17 or 18 when I first read EOTW, it then took me 4 attempts to get through what i still consider the weakest of the RJ books, I think the first read throughs at that age (the series was far from finished) I was caught up in how unique the story was. As I have got much older and my reading tastes. both fantasy and non fantasy, have changed I just find myself looking at it all with a different set of eyes, there are some moments of beautiful writing in it,  Battle of Emonds Field is one I constantly come back to over and over, but, the way the villians are written is largely very one dimensional, which is typical of the age but held up against modern writing makes them look flat, that is my main preference for the TV show, that and the removal of all the repetition of books 1-3, there is a lot you will find on your 3rd or 4th read through.  There are aspects of Rands arc that I do love, but again I read other works now and just think what could have been if the focus was taken away from heaving bosums and spankings and given to really diving into the relationships and characters, giving us more book moments between each of them. 

[Shawlee]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:36 AM, Sand_ said:

for the final battle he even ignored lews therins thought's and ended up in a box beaten everyday to be made into a slave to serve the aei sedai aswell as allanas forcible bond which completely truly broke the last sliver of his trust.

 

 

THANKS FOR SAYING THIS.

 

@Sand_

 

Sorry, i wasn't screaming at you, but i have to say, your little paragraph, and the raw emotions in it, gave a visceral picture of Rand Al'Thor. Not all of him, but at least the part that despises the Aes'Sedai. There are reasons, the man has cause, why he acts the way he acts. And you don't get the whole picture until you read to the end.

 

Well up to the starting of "Memory " when he finally becomes the Dragon and pattern is in syncd with him. 

 

Edit: the earlier books make the Aes'Sedai to be some amazing and awe-inspiring bunch of women. But as we get to know the other groups of women channelers, i saw the Aes'Sedai fall short. They are bunch of petty women, ignorant and entiltled. I know Power and humility don't go hand in hand. But, the hierarchy of the wise ones is way better and healthier than the tower Aes'Sedai. That shows power and humility, CAN go hand in hand if 'the stuff' you are made of is good. 

 

Aeron a wiseone says it so nicely : "Aes'Sedai have no honor!" And honestly I couldn't agree more.

 

The only tower Aes'Sedai (i do not consider or include our girls in it, Nynaeve's Aes'Sedai Test sealed my belief for sure.) I truly admire is Verin Mathwin. 

 

And we know what she is. 🤣

Edited November 2, 2023 by Shawlee
Needed to add how much I myself, as a woman, despise the Aes'Sedai, some times. Not all the time.

[Shawlee]

6 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

A strong character is a character with a clear personality, background, hopes and dreams, flaws and limitations to overcome, things to learn, relationships to have, screw up, and then mend again, or not, and so on. Rand grows the most out of any character I've ever come across in fiction. It's always clear why he does what he does, why he feels what he feels. He is the ultimate farmboy-to-demigod, rags-to-riches character, while coping with depression, madness, paranoia and immense pressure of the fate of the world and mankind being on his shoulders.

 

 

THISSSSSS,  THANKS 😊 🙌👏

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yes but you have to realise that a lot of the items in the books are fluid, and their "reality" is really a composite of what is presented. 

 

For example, the Aes Sedai are at times presented as Queens in their own rights, that are regal and impartial, that have the respect of all the nations of the world. Powerful and bastions of the Light against the Shadow. Principled and self-sacrificing. 

 

Then we also see them as weak, petty, exploitative, corrupt, riddled with Darkfriends, scheming for power amongst themselves constantly at the risk of everything else, dogmatic, afraid of change, easily manipulated, closed minded.

 

I think these are not contradictory, but are fluid for what the story is trying to show. And very often the story is holding them up to contrast against the "noble savages" of the Aiel, or Egwene's strength of purpose, or Rand's sacrifice. 

 

Take Pevara, who as a Red Sitter the story would have us believe should be the next thing to Darkfriend, should hate all non-Red sisters, and should be obsessed with power over every other concern. But we see a principled, determined, honourable, funny woman.

 

Because I think all the attributes we see assigned to the White Tower are true at the same time, but RJ colours them to suit the story of that moment and as they are nearly always antagonists to the main players, they are almost always cast in a negative light. 

 

That is at least how I see it, and I think it is a shame as it makes certain parts of the story far more two-dimensional than it needs to be.

[Shawlee]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Take Pevara, who as a Red Sitter the story would have us believe should be the next thing to Darkfriend, should hate all non-Red sisters, and should be obsessed with power over every other concern. But we see a principled, determined, honourable, funny woman.

 

Sorry, should have mentioned my Pevara.

 

How did i forget her, (and my androl)

 

I love her and whatever she is about. Honor,  sacrifice, and determination is what she is made of ("the stuff" I mentioned in my original post). Her and her little group of detectives 🕵️‍♀️( monster hunters in my opinion), were my only hope for any future of the tower Aes'Sedai. Or any respect I will have for them in the future. 

 

And SILVIANA. Can't forget the mistress of pure couage and not-giving-a-rats-ass-about-your-ignorance. They are the reasons I might reconsider my stance on the Aes'Sedai(saying it like the way Kate says it for Aeron, check it out  chapeter 1 of path of dagger, verins pov) 🤣🤣

 

 

I think these are not contradictory, but are fluid for what the story is trying to show. And very often the story is holding them up to contrast against the "noble savages" of the Aiel, or Egwene's strength of purpose, or Rand's sacrifice. 

 

 

Also, I do agree with your pov of the Aes'Sedai, completely. Again i just expected more than the back stabbing bunch they become sometimes. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Shawlee

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

And SILVIANA. Can't forget the mistress of pure couage and not-giving-a-rats-ass-about-your-ignorance.

This. 

 

And I think characters such as Romanda and Lelaine, are just parodies. I am sure that there had to be more to their characters than we were shown. They were the pettiness and personal ambition made flesh to be counter to and to allow Egwene's rise as Amyrlin. But it makes no sense that such respected Aes Sedai would be so two-dimensionally bad people. They just had a role to play and represented the negative sides of the Aes Sedai which set the stage for Egwene being raised. 

 

But yes, that is probably going so far out of headcanon and into completely rewriting the true story that RJ forgot to put on paper 😁 But I still think I am right, lol.

[Shawlee]

@HeavyHalfMoonBlade i edited my original post about pevara. Fyi.

[Yamezt]

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Take Pevara, who as a Red Sitter the story would have us believe should be the next thing to Darkfriend, should hate all non-Red sisters, and should be obsessed with power over every other concern. But we see a principled, determined, honourable, funny woman.

 

I remember struggling with Pevara's change of tone from RJ to BS. I think she only had 1 or 2 POV with RJ, but I quite liked her POV - I can remember one with her meeting with the Highest. The other... hmmm might be Seaine's POV. Part of me wished BS just had her turned and picked another unknown Aes Sedai as Androl's love interest, but the other part did find Pevara/Androl cute, albeit turned in a different way.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

 

I remember struggling with Pevara's change of tone from RJ to BS. I think she only had 1 or 2 POV with RJ, but I quite liked her POV - I can remember one with her meeting with the Highest. The other... hmmm might be Seaine's POV. Part of me wished BS just had her turned and picked another unknown Aes Sedai as Androl's love interest, but the other part did find Pevara/Androl cute, albeit turned in a different way.

Would love to help, but I have no idea what happened in what book. I'm re-listening to the books again and Thom has just turned up not dead in book 2, I could sworn he did not appear again until book 6 or something. That is how much attention I have paid to how the story is divided into books 🙂 

 

Yes, I was more specifically referring to her Black Ajah hunting duties, where she was willing to work with other sisters, sensible, willing to sacrifice herself for a greater good, will to risk much to do the right thing, etc., etc., and I don't think she is meant to be a stand out case, for all that she is a sitter. I think the idea was meant to be something like if you can see past their obsession with Tower politics, they are deep down at heart solid people. Or something like that. Always thought it was a bit weird that she was then transported to the Black Tower for so long, was a bit abrupt, but I have not read the last books very often so am not particularly qualified to comment.

[Yamezt]

12 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Or something like that. Always thought it was a bit weird that she was then transported to the Black Tower for so long, was a bit abrupt, but I have not read the last books very often so am not particularly qualified to comment.

Oh! that must have been her 2nd POV - arriving at the BT! That would have been in book 11. 

 

14 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Yes, I was more specifically referring to her Black Ajah hunting duties, where she was willing to work with other sisters, sensible, willing to sacrifice herself for a greater good, will to risk much to do the right thing, etc., etc.,

Ah yes, I get what you mean. A strange coincidence they had 1 in each Ajah (with the green turning out to be black) minus blue (rebel) 😂

[Shawlee]

34 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

think she only had 1 or 2 POV with RJ, but I quite liked her POV - I can remember one with her meeting with the Highest. The other... hmmm might be Seaine's POV

 

The first time you see Pevara is from Seaine's PoV and it was as early as book 7. (I literally just finished rereading 7) Almost at the end of the book. And she shows up maybe few times (but from Seaine's and maybe Searin's pov but she only had one pov in RJs book herself. 

[Yamezt]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:03 AM, STUCARIUS said:

The continuation of the characters, not just stubbornly resisting the paths laid out before them, but consistently ignoring the changes that occur to them is painfully frustrating for the reader.

 

I do agree that I found it frustrating - but I recalled enjoying RJ's Matt's arc in the later books  because there was a lot of humour in it

[Yamezt]

1 hour ago, Shawlee said:

The first time you see Pevara is from Seaine's PoV

 

Yes, I am pretty sure that is correct. 

 

It could be only 1 PoV. The scenes I sort of recall are Pevara interacting with Tarna on Tarna's return from Salidar. Then later the Highest (forgot her name). And later one with Yukiri as they were trying to be discrete (though maybe that was Yukiri's point of view).