WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

The only part of that whole "Season 2 was totally rewritten" stuff l question is... I feel like Moiraine & Lan's plot was always planned like this.

 

Then we have S1E8 finale, I feel like that would have been much the same, only with Barney in the room.

So would we have completely skipped Rand in Cairhen?
Got 4 episodes of the boys travelling to Falme with Ingtar?

I have no bloody idea.
But it feels like a lot of excess changes to lay at the feet of Barney. 😉 

Well, completely re-written is perhaps a bit overkill. Majorly re-written would perhaps be more appropriate. I'd imagine Moiraine and Lan would have progressed similarly, but there would have been time for Lan and Rand on the tower top (cause lets face it, we have not seen them naked enough yet), There could have been scenes with Moiraine and Rand (who would not be pretending to be dead) as she pretends not to care what he is doing. There could have been a sizable chunk of Moiraine/Lan story line playing out quite differently. Which may have meant that current version was stretched over more episodes while also being given more screen time as the two "main" actors need to get their mojo on.

 

Without access to the scripts to be sure, I think Barney leaving will continue to have an effect on the story however subtle for a long time to come. And I don't know about the end of season 1 being mostly the same, there was Fain, the dagger, the horn, all of that screamed for Mat's involvement. Perrin wandering off and then coming back to look at them dumbly does not seem to me like what would have happened if Mat had been there. 

 

But who knows? I guess we never will unless the scripts are released one day.

[Mirefox]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:34 AM, nsmallw said:

We didn't learn who killed that Fade in the village Perrin and company. 

We didn't learn more about the conversation between Mat and Ishamael. 

Mat asks, "how" and then nothing. Will we learn the answers to those questions in season three ?

and does anyone have thoughts on possible answers to those questions.  Thanks. 

I won’t spoil who killed the fade but I doubt we are going to revisit that as the character really isn’t the same as in the books.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

I won’t spoil who killed the fade but I doubt we are going to revisit that as the character really isn’t the same as in the books.

 

I am pretty certain we are going to, actually 

 

The whispering voices when PF was told to let Mat take the dagger I understood to mean that the fight between Shadar Logoth and Shayol Ghul in his mind is still ongoing. And I assume he is going to the TR with Perrin and Dain next season. 

 

[Scarloc99]

17 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

The only part of that whole "Season 2 was totally rewritten" stuff l question is... I feel like Moiraine & Lan's plot was always planned like this.

 

Then we have S1E8 finale, I feel like that would have been much the same, only with Barney in the room.

So would we have completely skipped Rand in Cairhen?
Got 4 episodes of the boys travelling to Falme with Ingtar?

I have no bloody idea.
But it feels like a lot of excess changes to lay at the feet of Barney. 😉 

the boys could have all travelled together following the horn and ended up in Cairhen, Rand then gets split off by Lanfer, Moiraine still finds them both and stabs Lanfer while perrin and matt are chasing to Falme, then Rand catches them up after meeting the AS and freeing the shield. This then matches the books a little closer. 

[Cipher]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:18 PM, DaddyFinn said:

Uno is Gaidal Cain, confirmed by Rafe in an interview

I kind of like this change(?),  but only relevant to book readers and not even hinted at.

Uno in Wheel of Prime is more of a clown than an awesome hero with a vile tongue—he is mocked by green horn and Ogier when he should be a seasoned veteran able to put people in their place. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Cipher

[GregR]

Apologies if this was mentioned and I missed it, but I saw it asked what in the books was considered using the power as a weapon, in the context of Moiraine and the damane on the ship in the TV show.

 

During the siege of Tar Valon, Egwene watches ships heading for the city and thinks to herself that she could set the ships on fire or just make holes to sink them. But if so people would surely die (mile to shore and freezing water).  And she doesn't because of wanting to live by the Oaths even if she hadn't taken them yet.  Then the book then states very specifically that no Aes Sedai who had taken the Oaths could even form the weaves to sink the ships for that reason.

[Scarloc99]

12 hours ago, GregR said:

Apologies if this was mentioned and I missed it, but I saw it asked what in the books was considered using the power as a weapon, in the context of Moiraine and the damane on the ship in the TV show.

 

During the siege of Tar Valon, Egwene watches ships heading for the city and thinks to herself that she could set the ships on fire or just make holes to sink them. But if so people would surely die (mile to shore and freezing water).  And she doesn't because of wanting to live by the Oaths even if she hadn't taken them yet.  Then the book then states very specifically that no Aes Sedai who had taken the Oaths could even form the weaves to sink the ships for that reason.

There is a big difference here the ships where taking food and goods to the people of Tar Valon, not attacking it. The Seanchan vessels where obviously an invading armoured force and they where attacking the Dragon Reborn while he was fighting a Foresaken, if that does not make them darkfriends by definition I don't know what will. 

[Samt]

37 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

 if that does not make them darkfriends by definition I don't know what will. 

The only thing that ever makes one into a darkfriend: knowingly swearing an oath to serve the shadow.  Darkfriend is a specific term referring to someone who has knowingly sworn an oath to serve the shadow. It isn’t a generic term for someone who does something that you don’t like.  It isn’t even just someone who does something that helps the shadow. While certain key Seanchan leaders are darkfriends, most of the soldiers and leaders aren’t. 
 

Also, I think that in the show the darkfriend loophole isn’t even part of the oaths anyways.

[Scarloc99]

10 minutes ago, Samt said:

The only thing that ever makes one into a darkfriend: knowingly swearing an oath to serve the shadow.  Darkfriend is a specific term referring to someone who has knowingly sworn an oath to serve the shadow. It isn’t a generic term for someone who does something that you don’t like.  It isn’t even just someone who does something that helps the shadow. While certain key Seanchan leaders are darkfriends, most of the soldiers and leaders aren’t. 
 

Also, I think that in the show the darkfriend loophole isn’t even part of the oaths anyways.

But an aes sedai would not know that, anyone working against the light is fair game, the oath doesn’t know more then the person under it, if it looks like. Duck, quacks like a duck it is a darkfriend regardless of if it has taken any oaths etc. 

 

So attacking the ships does come in under the oath to protect. 

[Samt]

23 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

But an aes sedai would not know that, anyone working against the light is fair game, the oath doesn’t know more then the person under it, if it looks like. Duck, quacks like a duck it is a darkfriend regardless of if it has taken any oaths etc. 

 

So attacking the ships does come in under the oath to protect. 

An Aes Sedai wouldn’t know what? The definition of darkfriend? Or that someone might help the shadow without being a darkfriend?  Because both of those concepts are actually very basic things that an Aes Sedai would definitely know.  
 

Unless you are saying that the oath is effectively invalidated by it being possible that someone might be a darkfriend.  But that would mean the oath is effectively meaningless. Any time someone works against an Aes Sedai, which is the only time attacking with the one power would come up, it’s possible the antagonist is a darkfriend.  
 

The oath only makes sense if it requires certainty, which a sane Moiraine couldn’t have had.

[Ralph]

7 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

There is a big difference here the ships where taking food and goods to the people of Tar Valon, not attacking it. The Seanchan vessels where obviously an invading armoured force and they where attacking the Dragon Reborn while he was fighting a Foresaken, if that does not make them darkfriends by definition I don't know what will. 

 

I think it was responding to my suggestion that inevitable casualties is not the same as trying to injure or kill. against which it is a good point, although the show can have a different definition. 

 

6 hours ago, Samt said:

 

Also, I think that in the show the darkfriend loophole isn’t even part of the oaths anyways.

 

nor did the books originally. it was added in later, when RJ realised the necessity. 

 

but the simplest answer to the oath question is just that it is not inevitable it will kill anyone. they were not a mile from shore and it was not freezing... 

 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, Samt said:

An Aes Sedai wouldn’t know what? The definition of darkfriend? Or that someone might help the shadow without being a darkfriend?  Because both of those concepts are actually very basic things that an Aes Sedai would definitely know.  
 

Unless you are saying that the oath is effectively invalidated by it being possible that someone might be a darkfriend.  But that would mean the oath is effectively meaningless. Any time someone works against an Aes Sedai, which is the only time attacking with the one power would come up, it’s possible the antagonist is a darkfriend.  
 

The oath only makes sense if it requires certainty, which a sane Moiraine couldn’t have had.

An aes sedai would not know specifically has this person personally sworn to the dark lord, or, is this person doing something for the Darklord thinking they are doing something evil for someone else, or because they are being paid to do it. 

[Max Delpo]

On 10/9/2023 at 6:21 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I think we may just not agree on this but I really don't think this would help all that much. Because I think they have managed to explain certain elements of lore/world building quite well, so to my mind the inability to explain other parts of the Wheel of Time comes down to execution, poor writing and maybe exec/storyboard decisions?

 

Something I thought was explained beautifully in S1 was the Way of the Leaf. They didn't need a huge amount of time for it, with one scene in particular very well written (Ila explaining it to Perrin). I think they have explained ji-e-toh well enough so far, with the limited screen time of the Aiel in S2. Finally having Elyas in S2 we got one scene explaining the wolves/how they communicate (to a degree). Effectively done in limited time. So if they can manage that, why do they mess up other key elements of lore? Sometimes it's poor writing and sometimes I wonder whether it's purposeful obfuscation 

 

 

I have to agree with this. Since all this explanations are present in the show and effective, the lack of any kind of explanation about other key aspect of the lore is weird. Clearly, for the source (saidin vs saidar) it is vague and totally unclear because the showrunners do not want to cleary say that the One Power is binary and gendered.

They are afraid but, at the end, it's better being crystal clear from the start. At the same time, they could also add a character who can channel the other half of the Source (Alima style)

[Max Delpo]

On 10/15/2023 at 4:37 AM, DreadLord31 said:

 

I just don’t think Rafe likes Rand…

But - to be honest, the first time I read the books I didn’t like Nynaeve. So - to each their own. 
 

 

 

 

If I have to judge based on the extras (x-ray), I would guess: No, he clearly doesen't like his character. He barely speak about Rand as a character. Only as the DR (plot device) for the others. In S2 he mentioned him clearly on Ep1S2 extra with: "We wanted to be clear about the fact that Rand is not the main protegonist"

 

But...

 

I will give him the benefict of the doubt and maybe, his plan is to give him a proper arc from s3 and all these rants will be adressed

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

3 hours ago, Max Delpo said:

 

If I have to judge based on the extras (x-ray), I would guess: No, he clearly doesen't like his character. He barely speak about Rand as a character. Only as the DR (plot device) for the others. In S2 he mentioned him clearly on Ep1S2 extra with: "We wanted to be clear about the fact that Rand is not the main protegonist"

 

But...

 

I will give him the benefict of the doubt and maybe, his plan is to give him a proper arc from s3 and all these rants will be adressed

Watching the show I have felt like they really want Egwene to be the Dragon Reborn, guessing Harriet would not allow it. So instead they are giving Egwene an arch that makes her look like the Dragon Reborn version 1a.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

Watching the show I have felt like they really want Egwene to be the Dragon Reborn, guessing Harriet would not allow it. So instead they are giving Egwene an arch that makes her look like the Dragon Reborn version 1a.

this argument just has no basis in fact whatsoever. In the books Egwene's plot actually takes up more time then Rands at various points, in season 1 Rafe didn't talk about Rand because he didn't want to spoil who the dragon was for non book viewers. In season 2 he is right, from book 2 Rand is not the main Protagonist, he is one in an ensemble piece and Robery Jordan spent a lot of time and gave a lot of page time to the E4 having focused on Rand when he thought there would only be 3 books to tell the story in. 

 

Saying after 2 seasons of the characters all broadly following the same story themes they did in the books gives no indication that anyone wanted Egwene as the Dragon. I mean Brandon would have come out and made that statement and i have not seen that anywhere (correct me if I am wrong) and not based on opinion, but based on fact of Rafe saying to him I don't want rand ot be the Dragon reborn. 

I also dont see anywhere a "fear" of gendered chanelling, it has been really clear to my non book reading friends so far that there are 2 halfs to the power, 

[Cipher]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:17 AM, Scarloc99 said:

The collar rules do not break any established TV lore, and given that we have never seen 1 damane collar another in this way in the books any statement that it isn't possible is opinion, the simple fact is that in the TV show it very much is possible, and the lore backs that up. 

I posted about this just 1 page ago but very briefly. 

Renna tells Egwene laughing, The collar will have no effect on me, that means that to Renna the Collar is not a weapon. If Egwene had used it to beat or to hit or cut Renna then yes, she would be stopped, but she is using teh collar for it's intended purpose and, I imagine it has never been programmed into the Collar to prevent a dammane using it on anyone, because, how would a Damane actually collar a wildling, seeing as Damane are lower then all. 

 

So the Collar is not a "banned" weapon because it only affects enemies of the Seanchan, it is not a weapon in Renna's eyes because it is not going to affect her and it is not a weapon in Egwenes eyes, because as a damane she is simply either collaring another Damane, or putting a nice collar on someone that will have no effect. 

 

As for the feedback loop, did you watch the following scene. Renna was screaming in pain, Egwene, was clearly in pain, but, had learnt to channel and direct it in a way that she knew she could outlast Renna, Renna told her, if you continue to hurt me we will both die. Egwene didn't care about that. 
 

Obviously WoPrime plays fast and loose with the rules, but a feedback loop could not be over looked in reality. The pain would build up so fast and so quick once Egwene put Renna in the choking position that Egewne would collapse much faster than she did when contemplated hitting Renna with the pitcher.  But she may have survived, because it was only a projected pain and not actual suffocation like Renna experienced.  Once Renna died Egwene might have had the pain stop immediately.

 

IMO the scene worked well enough and developed Egwene’s character.  But the whole Ishy scene was weak sauce, may be even worse than Rand beating Turak in the books.

[Cipher]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

this argument just has no basis in fact whatsoever. In the books Egwene's plot actually takes up more time then Rands at various points, in season 1 Rafe didn't talk about Rand because he didn't want to spoil who the dragon was for non book viewers. In season 2 he is right, from book 2 Rand is not the main Protagonist, he is one in an ensemble piece and Robery Jordan spent a lot of time and gave a lot of page time to the E4 having focused on Rand when he thought there would only be 3 books to tell the story in. 

 

Saying after 2 seasons of the characters all broadly following the same story themes they did in the books gives no indication that anyone wanted Egwene as the Dragon. I mean Brandon would have come out and made that statement and i have not seen that anywhere (correct me if I am wrong) and not based on opinion, but based on fact of Rafe saying to him I don't want rand ot be the Dragon reborn. 

I also dont see anywhere a "fear" of gendered chanelling, it has been really clear to my non book reading friends so far that there are 2 halfs to the power, 

In TGH Rand is most definitely the main character.  He gets more time than anybody else and has very good development as “Lord Rand” and Lady Selene actually forces him to level up. Rand has 53% of the POV with Egwene in 2nd at 13.5%.

 

In TDR it is ironic that Rand is mostly MIA though.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Cipher

[Scarloc99]

59 minutes ago, Cipher said:

In TGH Rand is most definitely the main character.  He gets more time than anybody else and has very good development as “Lord Rand” and Lady Selene actually forces him to level up. Rand has 53% of the POV with Egwene in 2nd at 13.5%.

 

In TDR it is ironic that Rand is mostly MIA though.

In TGH RJ thought he was going to have to end the series, he then spent several books increasing the screen Time of the other characters to get them up to the level of familiarity Rand was. 

 

Rafe knows how long he has to tell his story, he also knows that he needs to introduce all the characters and get them embedded in the show. Rand is the easy one to do this with because he is the dragon reborn, an entire season was spent finding that out, Matt is the hardest given in books 1-3 he has the weakest story in terms of stuff to do (he comes into his own in book 3 I happily accept), the rest have all broadly followed the same threads. 

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

this argument just has no basis in fact whatsoever. In the books Egwene's plot actually takes up more time then Rands at various points, in season 1 Rafe didn't talk about Rand because he didn't want to spoil who the dragon was for non book viewers. In season 2 he is right, from book 2 Rand is not the main Protagonist, he is one in an ensemble piece and Robery Jordan spent a lot of time and gave a lot of page time to the E4 having focused on Rand when he thought there would only be 3 books to tell the story in. 

 

Saying after 2 seasons of the characters all broadly following the same story themes they did in the books gives no indication that anyone wanted Egwene as the Dragon. I mean Brandon would have come out and made that statement and i have not seen that anywhere (correct me if I am wrong) and not based on opinion, but based on fact of Rafe saying to him I don't want rand ot be the Dragon reborn. 

I also dont see anywhere a "fear" of gendered chanelling, it has been really clear to my non book reading friends so far that there are 2 halfs to the power, 

I think you missed were I said "I have felt like", this was my opinion, did not say it was fact or should affect anyone else opinion. Guess I should just not make comments on how I see things.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I think you missed were I said "I have felt like", this was my opinion, did not say it was fact or should affect anyone else opinion. Guess I should just not make comments on how I see things.

Apologies seen so many people quite that as a fact about the series . 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

Guess I should just not make comments on how I see things.

Please don't walk away with that impression. Your comments are welcome and appreciated.

[Jaysen Gore]

I legitimately don't think they're looking to treat Egwene as the Dragon Reborn. I think what they are doing is setting up Egwene as the main protagonist who watches as her best friend and former lover becomes a 3,000 year old legend who is going to to break the world to save it, then watch him struggle as he becomes a ruthless dictator and potentially insane.  As she learns to trust this violent monster to do the honourable thing.

 

We are getting very little of what's happening in Rand's head (only what he's impacting in the world, and how others  treat him),  and so for most of the second half, I think they're going to play Rand as a villain (think Dumai's Wells from the Aes Sedai perspective, or the Nobility of Cairhien, or any other decision as he becomes "emperor"). Elayne had a speech about him becoming a king and that he needs to- she will see it, Egwene won't, and that will be the character conflict. 

 

Then they will have him interact with Tam for Veins of Gold, and show that there is a very big difference between a man being hard (pardon the pun), and a man being strong. 

 

That has been my expectation since about 1/2 way through S1, and nothing I've seen to date makes me want to change my mind.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Jaysen Gore

[Godoggo]

On 10/14/2023 at 7:54 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Has Brando Sando ever written tv scripts? 
 

He may be an expert on WoT and it’s lore, but that doesn’t mean he is the ultimate arbiter of what would make a good tv script. 

Maybe not, but the TV script for episode 8 sucked with a lot of inconsistencies that should have been caught.  It seemed they were so outcome based in their thought process that it didn't matter how they got there.  I want this to happen so let it be.  It doesn't make sense, but do it anyway.  Let the public make up stuff to explain it.  I loved season 2, even without the changes.  But the last episode for me killed it.  Egwene need help, no way.  Nynaeve healer, save Egwene?  Nope.  Perrin.  His name begins with P.  Let's give him an unexplained Perseus-type shield.  Rand, doesn't even need to be in Falme.  Proclaim himself the dragon?  Reveal himself to be the dragon?  Both are no's.  He stabbed a man just standing there and Moiraine actually created the flaming dragon.  One could say that's Aes Sedai manipulation and they would be correct.  This was not a new show.  It's an 8 season telling of an already written story.  Story boards should have been written out for all-8 seasons and I don't think they've done that

[Godoggo]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:13 AM, fra85uk said:

 

If you like something, of course you don't need approval from anyone else.

By the way, Mirefox is not wrong either...let us say that sometimes  your justifications of some of the weaker points of the show are quite far-fetched...if next season, Rafe comes up with (i am just kidding Rafe, do not take notes) Callandor being a LightSaber, I can come to this forum or WoTShow and find thousands of justifications for that 🤣

Callandor doesn't need to be a light sabre.  Matt already has a light sabre by tying a knife to a stick that can burn through anything.  (that's some strong cloth there)