Just a thought for viewers who read the books first

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Stop blanket defending the nonsense!  Rivers without banks are not safe!  Rivers are fickle; they change constantly based on the season and rainfall.  

I'm not "blanket defending nonsense", thanks. People jump into rivers from great height. These are villagers who have lived near this particular spot for generation upon generation. They would know the river, it's currents, and when it would be safe to have a ceremony such as this one. It's not like they wander up to some random place and are like, YOLO!!. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 If we are indeed accepting that this ritual makes sense then we are accepting that the possibility of killing a woman is acceptable in this community.

Okay. Accepted. This community's coming of age ceremony is sometimes dangerous and possibly fatal. Why is this so hard? You can accept that there is a world where people can channel the One Power and where Trollocs exist, but the thought that there would be a potentially fatal coming of age ceremony is a bridge too far?

 

7 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

And if you have make up your own backstory - that these women supposedly train in cliff jumping or whatever - to explain a scene that the writers added on their own, then it is poor writing.

No. First of all, I didn't say "train in cliff jumping". I said training to be "calm and collected". The training is of a spiritual nature - the importance of stillness. Allowing yourself to be carried on the current etc. I can "make these things up" because I can infer things from the scene. Such as the fact that this is obviously a traditional ceremony that has been done many times before. From that fact, I can further infer that they are aware of the dangerous nature of the ceremony and have taken steps to mitigate those dangers to the best of their ability and that Nynaeve's words to Egwene are tied to the lesson meant to be taught by the ceremony.

 

8 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

If the scene is necessary, why not have Nyn tell her to remember their training?  On top of that, Eg sure seems surprised, for someone who you’ve supposed has been preparing.

 She's surprised that she got yeeted, not that she was going to jump.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

28 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Mat is a travesty.  In the books he was a roguish scoundrel who would maybe steal a pie.  Here he’s the thief son on a horrible man who steals from the girls of the town and likes to drink.  Imagine if they did something like that to Eg.

This is not true. Here again you are using circular arguments that the reason for changes are bad, and the changes are bad for the reasons. Book Mat was awful in book 1. He is a naughty school boy, pouring scorn on everyone at every chance. He want to leave EF because he does not want to milk his Dad's cows. (And if you notice, he has more sisters than appears to have later on, amateurish writing or a forgivable error?) He is obviously completely unprepared for outside the village, but is completely whipped into submission by Moiraine, not even so much as talking to a single person about leaving because she said so. Forgets to think about a quarterstaff, despite being one of the best warriors in the whole of the Westlands with one. Completely two dimensional, with all his later development completely lacking. Did not drink, smoke or gamble, yet overnight these became his favourite pastimes. 

 

And what about his mother, you highlight his father, which matches your prechosen narrative, but don't mention his mother, which doesn't. Why don't you mention the way he looks after his sisters, and protects them, and his mother to an extant while obviously being conflicted about her, and the way she so coldly accuses him of being like his Dad. You completely ignore where a female character has been torn down much more thoroughly than Abel, and you ignore the positive traits in Mat, and refuse to reflect on the much deeper character that Mat now has. 

 

All because you have a narrative in your head, fueled by your anti-feminism (which you protect with your "True Scotsman" logical fallacy, to pretend that you are pro-feminist). Everything bad about the show is because the showrunner is a feminist, all changes are bad due to their motivation and the motivation is bad due to the changes. It is tragic. And you are completely welcome to your views, but you don't need the lack of respect and the personal attacks.

[SinisterDeath]

17 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

It’s been 30 years since I’ve read it and I’ve never seen the movie but I’ve heard it butchers the book, right?

The movie is SO BLOODY GOOD.

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm not "blanket defending nonsense", thanks. People jump into rivers from great height. These are villagers who have lived near this particular spot for generation upon generation. They would know the river, it's currents, and when it would be safe to have a ceremony such as this one. It's not like they wander up to some random place and are like, YOLO!!. 

 

Okay. Accepted. This community's coming of age ceremony is sometimes dangerous and possibly fatal. Why is this so hard? You can accept that there is a world where people can channel the One Power and where Trollocs exist, but the thought that there would be a potentially fatal coming of age ceremony is a bridge too far?

 

No. First of all, I didn't say "train in cliff jumping". I said training to be "calm and collected". The training is of a spiritual nature - the importance of stillness. Allowing yourself to be carried on the current etc. I can "make these things up" because I can infer things from the scene. Such as the fact that this is obviously a traditional ceremony that has been done many times before. From that fact, I can further infer that they are aware of the dangerous nature of the ceremony and have taken steps to mitigate those dangers to the best of their ability and that Nynaeve's words to Egwene are tied to the lesson meant to be taught by the ceremony.

 

 She's surprised that she got yeeted, not that she was going to jump.

Not to mention they do show that the ceremony is dangerous in some ways.  Egwene clearly slices her forearm open.  Layla has similar scars on her arm possibly when she went through it.

 

They know it is dangerous and have accepted it.

 

It is not like other cultures don't have stupid coming of age practices. Malkier has older women essentially sexually assault teenagers.

[Skipp]

9 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The movie is SO BLOODY GOOD.

Agreed but to address Mirefox, yes it completely disrespects the book. And yet despite that it is a fantastic film that people sometimes forget to look deeper into.

 

Odd thing I just realized is that there is an interesting parallel between Starship troopers and Wheel of time, specifically Dumai's Wells.

 

I find that a lot of fans cheer at Dumai's Wells, especially at the "Kneel or you will be knelt".  ultimately nothing wrong with that, I had the same reaction when I first read it.  It was about time that these manipulators got put into their place.  But after years of reading WoT you come to realize that this particular moment is not ment to be cheered, it was a victory for the Shadow.

 

How does this relate to Starship Troopers?  Well it is the same idea.  The good guys capture the bugs and win the Day and you cheer along with them.  But there is a reason the "good guys" officers are dressed like the SS...

Edited September 19, 2023 by Skipp

[SinisterDeath]

22 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

then we are accepting that the possibility of killing a woman is acceptable in this community.  And if you have make up your own backstory - that these women supposedly train in cliff jumping or whatever - to explain a scene that the writers added on their own, then it is poor writing.  If the scene is necessary, why not have Nyn tell her to remember their training?  On top of that, Eg sure seems surprised, for someone who you’ve supposed has been preparing.

After having read the series, are you really going to tell me with a straight face you never once thought about yeeting Egwene off of a Cliff?

I seriously thought this would have been the LEAST controversial thing Rafe changed...

[SinisterDeath]

53 minutes ago, Skipp said:

How does this relate to Starship Troopers?  Well it is the same idea.  The good guys capture the bugs and win the Day and you cheer along with them.  But there is a reason the "good guys" officers are dressed like the SS...

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Rafe Judkins is on record saying that this is his vision of WoT.  He is on record saying that he is using WoT as a vehicle for preaching his worldviews.  He is on record for threading to arbitrarily make characters gay out of spite.

 

The writing in this entire series is amateurish but to suggest that the showrunner is above reproach because it is a collaborative effort is flat out wrong.

Can you please supply the exact quotes with source where he has made these explicit comments, because I have seen this argument throughout the internet and yet no one can actually point to these "on the record" comments, what they do provide is either one line out of context, or something that is not saying that at all, or they can't fine it anymore. 

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Ah yes, the old "you can't critique unless you've done it better argument."  I presume that's how you work with everything, right?  You can't critique a restaurant unless you've made the food yourself?  You can't critique a politician unless you've written legislation yourself?

 

Most of us are able to critique because our life experiences have given us a spectrum of any given medium from good to bad and we are able to compare that which we are critiquing against examples of how something is done either good or bad within that medium.

 

I can pick out dozens of logical inconsistencies in any given episode of this show; I can quote lines that show that the writers do not understand their own story.  Yet if I haven't written a script I can't say that they aren't very good at what they are doing?  Does the corollary work as well?  If I find a show exceptional am I not allowed to praise it since I have not had the experience of writing a show myself?

You know what, I can do the same with the books if I want, in fact I have, there are gaping logical holes all over them, obvious plot points that RJ either forgot about, dropped, or wasn't sure how to bring to an end, you can see places where he forces the characters to shift and change because he obviously wants to change how he is writing them. He also wrote a book that, in it's time was massively subversive and forward thinking in how it presented a number of subjects in a fantasy setting. He specifically wrote a story that would push the boundaries of "what a good fantasy story was", but it is also a story that in some ways has not aged well. A friend of mine who recently read it for the first time commented on how full it was of lazy tropes about men and women, about how the women and men where all far to similar in the wrong ways, and how, in some places the writing was hard to read and repetitive. 

The WOT universe is fantastically interesting and the books have some fantastic moments. No other fantasy series gets the kind of emotion RJ does at the battle of Emonds field, or the sense of satisfaction at watching Egwene get one over the sitters, but, lets also be honest, the story as it was is in many ways dated and needed to be brought up to date for a modern audience who, despite what a minority of the internet try and have us believe, want to see stuff on TV that represents a modern, inclusive society. But, and this is the thing, the essence of that story is all already there and, had RJ been writing WOT today, with what fantasy can get away with now, I have no doubt he would be pushing the envelope even further and giving us very out characters, more overt same sex relationships and possibly making souls non gendered. 

By all means choose not to like it, but you are criticising a painting for missing a house when the painter hasn't even finished the background yet. Season 4 I saw people complaining that there was not enough explanation about this, or that, only just 1 episode later to see those arguments shut down as the writers picked a great moment to explain certain points of lore or background. Maybe lets wait until the show comes to a conclusion and view the whole picture from afar rather then state that Rafe has done this or that to a character who has only just started there emotional journey in the story. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Unreliable narrators exist. Every word out of a character's mouth does not reflect truth. 

Moiraine believes that the breaking was caused by men's arrogance. But as the cold open for S1E8 showed, it was also caused by women's reluctance to believe that LTT's plan was worthwhile. So Moiraine's view is not entirely wrong, nor is it entirely right.

 

Liandrin probably believes that she is superior to everyone else. She certainly has acted that way in the show, hasn't she?

 

Despite your deep desire to make these into fundamental changes in the lore, they just aren't.

Liandrin, also black ajah, has shown you can't believe a word that comes out of her mouth. 

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Liandrin, also black ajah, has shown you can't believe a word that comes out of her mouth. 

True, but in this case Moiraine witnessed it so Liandrin couldn’t have lied, here.

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Ok, going chronologically and still at the beginning of E1, Moiraine says there are rumors of 4 taveren in the Two Rivers.  Good writing?  Where did these rumors come from?  Who else knows these rumors?  Why isn’t thhis a bigger deal for anyone, Moiraine included?

 

Next scene, the Women’a Circle has a ritual for women in the Two Rivers that come of age.  That’s nice.  They braid their hair.  That’s nice.  Then they push them off a cliff into a raging river with no banks and hope they survive.  Come gain?  So this small rural town has a tradition that is likely to kill some girls when they come of age?  Is this good writing or is it so they can try to shoehorn in a metaphor?

 

 

As someone who has done river swimming pretty much like this, it is actually pretty safe if you know the stretch of river well (which I imagine all the women do) and you keep your hands and feet together and your body straight so you float. The water takes you the safest route because that is the way it flows. This is not the scene to "question" the realism of, because like I say people do that recreationally all over the world all the time (well the correct time of year which is usually spring, after full on flooding and before water levels drop). 

It is a TV show, you will not see every single lead up explained, and you should not, accept there was a whole period of time before the show where lots of stuff happened, some of that we may see, if it is important to the story, using Moiraine to give a little exposition dump at the start to explain why she is where she is, and mention some words that will be important later, is a standard writing technique. Now, personally I hate cheap exposition dumps, but, I also realise that sometimes for the sake of brevity, it is the best way to get information across to the audience. 

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

This is not true. Here again you are using circular arguments that the reason for changes are bad, and the changes are bad for the reasons. Book Mat was awful in book 1. He is a naughty school boy, pouring scorn on everyone at every chance. He want to leave EF because he does not want to milk his Dad's cows. (And if you notice, he has more sisters than appears to have later on, amateurish writing or a forgivable error?) He is obviously completely unprepared for outside the village, but is completely whipped into submission by Moiraine, not even so much as talking to a single person about leaving because she said so. Forgets to think about a quarterstaff, despite being one of the best warriors in the whole of the Westlands with one. Completely two dimensional, with all his later development completely lacking. Did not drink, smoke or gamble, yet overnight these became his favourite pastimes. 

 

And what about his mother, you highlight his father, which matches your prechosen narrative, but don't mention his mother, which doesn't. Why don't you mention the way he looks after his sisters, and protects them, and his mother to an extant while obviously being conflicted about her, and the way she so coldly accuses him of being like his Dad. You completely ignore where a female character has been torn down much more thoroughly than Abel, and you ignore the positive traits in Mat, and refuse to reflect on the much deeper character that Mat now has. 

 

All because you have a narrative in your head, fueled by your anti-feminism (which you protect with your "True Scotsman" logical fallacy, to pretend that you are pro-feminist). Everything bad about the show is because the showrunner is a feminist, all changes are bad due to their motivation and the motivation is bad due to the changes. It is tragic. And you are completely welcome to your views, but you don't need the lack of respect and the personal attacks.

Mat for me is a great example of a writer creating a character in book 1, having an arc and then thinking, what now. I very much feel that TGH was Robert Jordans attempt to give himself time to figure out what Mats story would be, and how he was going to get the character there. In some ways it is a great example of the pitfalls of starting a story without fully mapping out each of your main characters arcs, but at the same time shows that as a writer you can make up these things as you go and write out narrative that allows you to change a characters personality while not making it feel forced or contrived. I fully accept that Mat before the dagger is different to Mat after and that the Dagger was the reason for that. 

[Scarloc99]

13 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

True, but in this case Moiraine witnessed it so Liandrin couldn’t have lied, here.

She absolutely can, if the lie is one that has been perpetuated by the Shadow for the past 1000 years. 

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Skipp said:

Agreed but to address Mirefox, yes it completely disrespects the book. And yet despite that it is a fantastic film that people sometimes forget to look deeper into.

 

Odd thing I just realized is that there is an interesting parallel between Starship troopers and Wheel of time, specifically Dumai's Wells.

 

I find that a lot of fans cheer at Dumai's Wells, especially at the "Kneel or you will be knelt".  ultimately nothing wrong with that, I had the same reaction when I first read it.  It was about time that these manipulators got put into their place.  But after years of reading WoT you come to realize that this particular moment is not ment to be cheered, it was a victory for the Shadow.

 

How does this relate to Starship Troopers?  Well it is the same idea.  The good guys capture the bugs and win the Day and you cheer along with them.  But there is a reason the "good guys" officers are dressed like the SS...

I remember watching starship troopers as a teen and wondering why I was the only one feeling sorry for the bugs, especially at the end when the psychic one is being cut open with a saw blade (think it is at the end). 

But yes, the entire Rand vs White Tower fiasco almost handed the shadow the war. 

[Windigo]

23 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Stop blanket defending the nonsense!  Rivers without banks are not safe!  Rivers are fickle; they change constantly based on the season and rainfall.  If we are indeed accepting that this ritual makes sense then we are accepting that the possibility of killing a woman is acceptable in this community.  And if you have make up your own backstory - that these women supposedly train in cliff jumping or whatever - to explain a scene that the writers added on their own, then it is poor writing.  If the scene is necessary, why not have Nyn tell her to remember their training?  On top of that, Eg sure seems surprised, for someone who you’ve supposed has been preparing.

 

It is bad writing.  

I think it is written well,  it showed the connection and knowledge of an area and place by locals that have lived there a long time. I live in a place where people regularly go to certain lake/ river cliffs  or waterfalls to jump in, we take our kids to swim in waterfall pools, and to jump off the rocks.  Locals know to avoid the times when there are more dangers after a storm or spring rains, all that and yet I would be clueless on the dangers of oceans. It is context and believable for a people that live in an area of Rivers.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Windigo

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

That said, it is also a dramatic visual scene, that does not involve a long drawn out explanation of the May poles, and the agenda of Beltine, etc., that the books easily have time for. It also seems to be an analogy to embracing the source, perhaps similar to Rand learning the Flame and the Void from Tam that made him particularly adept at learning to seize the source, so are Two Rivers women by coming from a nutcase society that hurls them into raging white water rivers (you can see when Egwene finally turns up at the inn that they are all Christian Slater in the Prince of Thieves "Blow me, she made it"), are particularly adept at embracing the source.

 

So it is a visually compelling set up, that does not need a lot dialogue, that foreshadows of the OP, and provides an interesting juxtaposition and change of pace from the lovey-dovey "we are always with you" dialogue, when they forget to add, "except for now when we chuck you in the river". 

 

So I don't think whether it is a good idea or not really comes into it. That is what poetic license is for. 

[Windigo]

17 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

. He also wrote a book that, in it's time was massively subversive and forward thinking in how it presented a number of subjects in a fantasy setting. He specifically wrote a story that would push the boundaries of "what a good fantasy story was", but it is also a story that in some ways has not aged well. A friend of mine who recently read it for the first time commented on how full it was of lazy tropes about men and women, about how the women and men where all far to similar in the wrong ways, and how, in some places the writing was hard to read and repetitive. 

The WOT universe is fantastically interesting and the books have some fantastic moments. No other fantasy series gets the kind of emotion RJ does at the battle of Emonds field, or the sense of satisfaction at watching Egwene get one over the sitters, but, lets also be honest, the story as it was is in many ways dated and needed to be brought up to date for a modern audience who, despite what a minority of the internet try and have us believe, want to see stuff on TV that represents a modern, inclusive society. But, and this is the thing, the essence of that story is all already there and, had RJ been writing WOT today, with what fantasy can get away with now, I have no doubt he would be pushing the envelope even further and giving us very out characters, more overt same sex relationships and possibly making souls non gendered. 

I agree with much of this, WoT was pushing both fantasy, cultural and gender roles when it was written in the late 80's, but it was also making statements on, the Feminism movement (not all good) of the 70's and 80's. Today female inn keepers, power structures, soldiers and rulers would not be radical, when I read the first book in 1990 they were. To be true to that idea of the books it needed to be updated. There were plenty of commentary in the books placing women above men, and the show portrays the same thing, just in visual media it is more obvious and overt in some ways than 100's of words actions here and there across 14 books.  

The fantasy tropes would be obvious and feel old for a reader today, unless you were a reader of myths and fairy tales or ancient legends when the books first came out. Except the initial books hero journey young boy Tolkien trope, the rest was new in fantasy books and refreshing.  I like how they have tweaked the beginning to start with many of the changes that we see in  later books with an ensemble rather than just the boy saves world trope of the first couple of books.   

[Averlan]

On 9/19/2023 at 12:36 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Mat has been changed somewhat, but I don't think "lessened". It's just that (as I've said elsewhere), they've inverted his morality. In the books, he is always loyal to his friends, despite the fact that he really doesn't want to be. In the show, he isn't loyal even though he really wishes he was. (And, in the books, Mat really doesn't do anything until after Rhuidean anyway - plenty of room for growth.)

Mat doesn't do anything in the books until Rhuidean?? that is just wrong on so many levels. Granted it's book 3 and not expected to be seen yet, but he gets up from a sick bed, travels to Tear, breaks into one of the most highly guarded citadels in the world, to rescue his friends(Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave) from the Black Ajah.

 

There are some parts fo the first 2 seasons I wasn't a huge fan of but can live with aka Rand end scene, but that had less to do with Rand losing it, and more to do with they let the Army die, and it was the first step to Rand's announcement. That an be changed, but it was part of the reason the Shienarian's who followed him to Falme became Dragonsworn so fast. Still not the end of the world as far as a change goes. S2 ending i won't go into cause of spoilers but that was worse imo

Edited October 7, 2023 by Averlan