Why not follow the books more closely?

[expat]

23 minutes ago, Samt said:

But the changes made early in season 1 feel like totaling the car backing out of the driveway. And I'm not really interested in the explanation.  When an expert fails, excuses feel hollow.

 

And it certainly doesn't feel like someone was respecting the fact that the story is complicated and changes are going to have ripple effects.  And that's really the contradiction that I think is really rubbing a lot of book fans the wrong way.  Don't tell me it's difficult because of the complexity and lack of run time while also adding complexity that eats up runtime.  

 

Not being "interested in the explanation" is on par for this discussion. It adds nothing substantive, just another assertion that I'm right and the writers are incompetent or evil.

 

I'm one of those who thinks that WoT is basically unfilmable as written, especially when you include all the production issues involved, so I'm not as hung-up on book fidelity as others.  The one thing that I would like in this discussion is a good faith effort from those who think that the book can be filmed as written to address all the real writing and production issues.  I am not a writer or producer, but here is a short list of random things I think impact the writing and cause changes from the written source (DigificWriter can probably add more).

 

Mundane issues:  Standard issues in every multiyear project

 

Money:

1.  How many sets can we afford to build - Is our money better spent on a set used once (e.g., Camelyn in season 1) or other things.

2. How many costumes can we afford to create - is our money better spent on a set of costumes used once or other things

3. How much CGI can we afford

4. How to structure the story for efficient filming (cost, time, crew implications).  For example, show most of Rand's/Mat's adventures in one place in season 1 instead of multiple locations. 

 

Actors:

1. What actors do we hire - WoT has lots of people who disappear for books and then reappear.  Options include hire a known actor and hope they are available 5 years in the future when they are needed again, ignore the character, hire a complete unknown and hope they are available in 5 years when they are needed again, change the story to give them something to do during the 5 years to ensure their availability (e.g., Moiraine/Lan in season 2), recast the character in 5 years etc.

2. Training the actor - If an actor needs specialized skills (e.g., Rand and sword fighting), is it worth the time and money to train the actor, will the skill look good on screen, and how often will they use the skills.

 

Good TV:

1. Show, not tell.  Dialogue must supplement the visuals, not be the main mechanism to accomplish major plot and character points.

2. Identify the things in the books that work on TV and those that don't work on TV - All things that the writers determine don't work on TV have to be modified, eliminated, or accomplished through other means if critical to the story. 

3. This is a long series that will take place over 10-12 real world years if all 8 years are produced - Subtle details will be lost over the years, so everything important has to be memorable or repeated ad nauseum.  People remember long, in your face story arcs much better than dialogue or short, subtle scenes.     

4. Heros must be likable (in the long-run) and relatable to the modern audience.  You may call this an agenda, but nobody is going to watch 8 seasons over 12 years for characters they don't like and they don't relate to.  Things that the audience won't relate to must be eliminated, modified, or achieved through other mechanisms if critical to the plot.

 

WoT specific:

1. Most of the character development was driven through inner monologues.  This character development had to be shown on screen in some fashion.

2. Lots of world and magic system building required.  Several points above address why it might be better to do this through new material than try to force book material on screen.

3. Parts of the books were not very good (e.g., ending of EotW, depiction of EF, vast repetition of material to ensure readers remember the details from previous books, how many fights with Ishy were needed to climax books etc.)

4. Multiple simultaneous plot and character threads (after book 3 there are almost always 4 or 5 main threads and a couple of minor ones on-going at all times) with limited screen time is hard for an audience to follow. 

 

Agree that the writers missed on some decisions and it's too soon to know on others, but I don't see how "follow the books more closely" doesn't result in an unfilmable train wreck.  I wish you would prove me wrong, but that would require addressing the writing and the decisions holistically within the context of the problems and constraints of adapting a long book series to a multi-year TV series.  Just saying, follow the books is not convincing.

 

23 minutes ago, Samt said:

For instance, there just wasn't a strong need to make Abel a philanderer and Natti a drunk.  I understand some like that this change brings more edge to Emond's field.  But it lets us know right out of the gate that someone (the writers or someone above them) wants to make changes because he or she can.  As I said above, maybe it's not fair to pin that on the writers. We don't really know what constraints they were working under.  But someone is responsible for that change.  It wasn't just the path of least resistance. 

I loved that change.  I thought the book's description of EF was badly flawed because everyone was too gentile which is not realistic for a place like EF on the far edge of civilization.  One of my main issues with Mat in the books was why was he, of all the EF folks, a jackass. He was a trickster, cad, gambler, and money grubber.  Coming from a broken home answered the questions.  He was a trickster to relieve the pressure from a bad home.  He got his other bad habits as a result of his home life.  Finally, his reluctant hero motif was a powerful redemption story on how his heroic nature transcended his broken home.  So for me, the change greatly improved his character arc. 

[fearbrog]

I think Lews being Dragon Reborn good indication how much writers respect source material. It can't even be blamed on evil execs who bullying poor little well-meaning showrunners, cause it's not big enough story thread to be dictated from above.

[Kaleb]

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

I think Lews being Dragon Reborn good indication how much writers respect source material. It can't even be blamed on evil execs who bullying poor little well-meaning showrunners, cause it's not big enough story thread to be dictated from above.

That's exactly the kind of thing that smacks of exec non-reader decisions. "This world is all about reincarnation, right? And everybody knows there's always a Dragon that will save the world, right? So that's always the Dragon Reborn!"

 

Again, saying that the writers don't respect the source material is so insulting at this point. They're taking an incredibly complex story and putting it on screen amid all kinds of real-world considerations like expat detailed above, and one obstacle is clearly questionable storytelling decisions imposed by people well above the showrunner level. There's so much love and deep knowledge of the books visible throughout every episode that the personal insults to the creative team seem just petty.

 

Also again, nothing in what I wrote above means people shouldn't critique the show. Just do it without insulting the commitment of the people who are making it happen, please?

Edited May 3 by Kaleb

[DigificWriter]

Objecting to a term like "the Dragon Reborn" being applied explicitly to characters other than Rand is emblematic of the ignorance and naivete that fuels threads like this one and that leads directly to gatekeeping and unfair attacks on the credibility and competence of the individuals responsible for this adaptation.

 

It's also the epitome of pedantry.

[fearbrog]

5 hours ago, Kaleb said:

That's exactly the kind of thing that smacks of exec non-reader decisions. "This world is all about reincarnation, right? And everybody knows there's always a Dragon that will save the world, right? So that's always the Dragon Reborn!"

 

Again, saying that the writers don't respect the source material is so insulting at this point. They're taking an incredibly complex story and putting it on screen amid all kinds of real-world considerations like expat detailed above, and one obstacle is clearly questionable storytelling decisions imposed by people well above the showrunner level. There's so much love and deep knowledge of the books visible throughout every episode that the personal insults to the creative team seem just petty.

 

Also again, nothing in what I wrote above means people shouldn't critique the show. Just do it without insulting the commitment of the people who are making it happen, please?

I'm just fascinated how everything in the world against showrunners: corona and Barney were against them, now evil Amazonians come along and ruin perfect vision. Now apparently Rand being Dragon Reborn Reborn is forced by execs. In can't be that writers don't fully care about metaphysics as we see with circles, and a'dam, and Dragon Reborn Reborn, and aoe heal, and Uno being hero of horn, and mega-healer Egg

 

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

It's also the epitome of pedantry.

That's not "pedantry", that's THE point. Dragon Reborn is Rand being Lews who is Dragon. 

Edited May 3 by fearbrog

[SinisterDeath]

19 hours ago, Samt said:

Are you saying that the machine is so cumbersome and restrictive that the show creators and writers effectively don't have creative control of the products they are producing?  They just turn the crank and something comes out?  

 

That's like saying that we have this sausage machine and because of the way we clean it, the sausage always comes out with a strong taste of soap.  It's not our fault.  That's just how the machine was made.  

 

Even if that is true, it just means that someone needs to get the power and imagination to break the machine.  At some level, someone is responsible.  And I'm suspicious that guy likes the taste of soap.  

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

 

The writing rooms we have today (2024) are different then the writing rooms we had back in 1994, or 2004. The amount of "control" the "show runner" had, has  severely diminished in favor of the "network"... And you can thank Netflix for changing this Dynamic.

 

Remember the joke "Netflix will give ANYONE a show?"

There was truth to that. They experimented with "Orange is the New Black" by creating something that was never done before on a Streaming network before. An "original". Then they started pumping out more "originals".

Eventually they started throwing $$$ around and created a LOT of Low quality content. (That's where that joke came from)

That backfired, so they dialed that back and started putting their thumb on the writers and producers... And so did every other company that did streaming.

Disney+, Paramount, Peacock, etc.

 

The main point here is that back when shows like "X-Files", "Supernatural", "Lost", "Heroes", "Etc", were being made, show runners had a lot of "skin" in the game.

They "owned" a portion of the show, and thus they had the were able to maintain creative control of their shows to an extent.

 

Shows like WoT?
Rafe doesn't have that kind of Skin in the game. If Amazon fires him, he's completely SOL. He likely doesn't have a huge contract that they have to buy out... And he ultimately has to play Daes Dae'mar with Amazon Studios.... So let's hope he was good at Survivor and not voted off in the first round?

 

14 hours ago, Samt said:

Which is a more faithful adaptation of the WoT book series:  Amazon Wheel of Time or Star Wars Episode VII?

WoT. Because Star Wars Episode VII isn't a Book Adaptation.

 

[SinisterDeath]

15 hours ago, Samt said:

For instance, there just wasn't a strong need to make Abel a philanderer and Natti a drunk.  I understand some like that this change brings more edge to Emond's field.  But it lets us know right out of the gate that someone (the writers or someone above them) wants to make changes because he or she can.  As I said above, maybe it's not fair to pin that on the writers. We don't really know what constraints they were working under.  But someone is responsible for that change.  It wasn't just the path of least resistance. 

 

And it certainly doesn't feel like someone was respecting the fact that the story is complicated and changes are going to have ripple effects.  And that's really the contradiction that I think is really rubbing a lot of book fans the wrong way.  Don't tell me it's difficult because of the complexity and lack of run time while also adding complexity that eats up runtime.  

Do you remember Rafe's story where the other writers in the room were talking about changing Perrin's power from Wolves to Bears, and Rafe had to Interject before Sarah had an aneurysm and started stabbing people? (paraphrasing here)

 

Some of the other writers they hired were too worried about the optics of WoT looking like a GoT knock off that they wanted to change Perrin's core ability from Wolves to Bears... Making him... Bear Brother.

 

These same writers also couldn't see the implicit colorism/racism of making a black actor (Marcus Rutherford) a Bear Brother when his book counterpart was a Wolf Brother. Though it should be noted, I don't know if they had already cast people at this time, or if this was before casting. But Holy shit. If they went with, not only would it have pissed of every fan, the racism optics of that is just absolutely bonkers bad... It's also something Rafe never acknowledged from that story. (which at least leads me to believe this was before casting?)

Point is. That was one story that didn't get through the writing process. Obviously Mat's parents did.

The other thing you have to consider is that just because they finish a script in that room, doesn't mean they don't have to come back for rewrites when mother (amazon) says re-write.

 

Amazon might come back with redlined notes like "make this character darker". "Make this character a drunk". "Make this character gritter". "Make the episode darker". "Make it more like game of thrones".

 

Then the writers have to go back through, and tweak everything they've already written based off those notes.

 

Why didn't Egwene's father have more lines?

Probably because those notes cut him short.

Why did they cast "Cenn Buie", only to change him to "Old Man" in the credits?

Those notes all play a role...

 

If you want a better example then a racecar driver... Think of an Architect designing a house.

 

You approach an Architect and say want a 4000SF house and you've got $1M to build it. 

You present the Architect with the Land you've already purchased.  You show the Architect a picture of a house you really like, and some descriptions of what you'd like inside that house.

Few months later, the architect presents you the plans!

It's a two story, 50'x40' house, the exterior looks identical to the picture!

The interior layouts look nothing like you imagined it however! 

You wanted the bedrooms on the first floor, and the kitchen on the top floor. You wanted a walk-in-closet in the master bedroom. A shared bathroom for 2 of the bedrooms. A Large Pantry.

 

The Architect looks confounded as none of this was in the original notes! They even explain that typically bedrooms go on the top floor, and kitchens are on the bottom floor!

 

The Architect makes the changes a few weeks later. You return, look over them and ask if the architect could remove a wall down the center of building to add a pool. The Architect sighs and explains that's a load bearing wall and while it's possible it would cost a lot of money and would vastly change the core structure of the building.

 

And so it goes, for months and months. Redlining and changes and by the time the project is done, it looks nothing like the "original draft". If your lucky it's still under budget and doesn't get canceled for going over.

[Jaccsen]

11 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Objecting to a term like "the Dragon Reborn" being applied explicitly to characters other than Rand is emblematic of the ignorance and naivete that fuels threads like this one and that leads directly to gatekeeping and unfair attacks on the credibility and competence of the individuals responsible for this adaptation.

 

It's also the epitome of pedantry.

 

There it is again. Directs insults of ignorance and then the tired gatekeeping argument that gets trotted out to malign anyone who disagrees with the elites who want to tell you what you should like. I can play the same game here. I have a degree in publishing with focuses on creative writing and screenwriting. I have worked in the field for a long time.

 

I find the writing on the show lazy and poorly done. Does my education suddenly make my opinion more worthy and less ignorant and naïve?

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

16 minutes ago, Jaccsen said:

There it is again. Directs insults of ignorance and then the tired gatekeeping argument that gets trotted out to malign anyone who disagrees with the elites who want to tell you what you should like.

Let’s not pretend that insults and gatekeeping are exclusive to one side or the other of this argument.  

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, Jaccsen said:

 

There it is again. Directs insults of ignorance and then the tired gatekeeping argument that gets trotted out to malign anyone who disagrees with the elites who want to tell you what you should like. I can play the same game here. I have a degree in publishing with focuses on creative writing and screenwriting. I have worked in the field for a long time.

 

I find the writing on the show lazy and poorly done. Does my education suddenly make my opinion more worthy and less ignorant and naïve?

 

 

 

Nothing I said here is either insulting or gatekeeping behavior, merely commentary on how and why I believe that arguments against the show such as the premise upon which this thread is predicated are rooted in ignorance and lead to gatekeeping behavior.

 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Do you remember Rafe's story where the other writers in the room were talking about changing Perrin's power from Wolves to Bears, and Rafe had to Interject before Sarah had an aneurysm and started stabbing people? (paraphrasing here)

 

Some of the other writers they hired were too worried about the optics of WoT looking like a GoT knock off that they wanted to change Perrin's core ability from Wolves to Bears... Making him... Bear Brother.

 

These same writers also couldn't see the implicit colorism/racism of making a black actor (Marcus Rutherford) a Bear Brother when his book counterpart was a Wolf Brother. Though it should be noted, I don't know if they had already cast people at this time, or if this was before casting. But Holy shit. If they went with, not only would it have pissed of every fan, the racism optics of that is just absolutely bonkers bad... It's also something Rafe never acknowledged from that story. (which at least leads me to believe this was before casting?)

Point is. That was one story that didn't get through the writing process. Obviously Mat's parents did.

The other thing you have to consider is that just because they finish a script in that room, doesn't mean they don't have to come back for rewrites when mother (amazon) says re-write.

 

Amazon might come back with redlined notes like "make this character darker". "Make this character a drunk". "Make this character gritter". "Make the episode darker". "Make it more like game of thrones".

 

Then the writers have to go back through, and tweak everything they've already written based off those notes.

 

Why didn't Egwene's father have more lines?

Probably because those notes cut him short.

Why did they cast "Cenn Buie", only to change him to "Old Man" in the credits?

Those notes all play a role...

 

If you want a better example then a racecar driver... Think of an Architect designing a house.

 

You approach an Architect and say want a 4000SF house and you've got $1M to build it. 

You present the Architect with the Land you've already purchased.  You show the Architect a picture of a house you really like, and some descriptions of what you'd like inside that house.

Few months later, the architect presents you the plans!

It's a two story, 50'x40' house, the exterior looks identical to the picture!

The interior layouts look nothing like you imagined it however! 

You wanted the bedrooms on the first floor, and the kitchen on the top floor. You wanted a walk-in-closet in the master bedroom. A shared bathroom for 2 of the bedrooms. A Large Pantry.

 

The Architect looks confounded as none of this was in the original notes! They even explain that typically bedrooms go on the top floor, and kitchens are on the bottom floor!

 

The Architect makes the changes a few weeks later. You return, look over them and ask if the architect could remove a wall down the center of building to add a pool. The Architect sighs and explains that's a load bearing wall and while it's possible it would cost a lot of money and would vastly change the core structure of the building.

 

And so it goes, for months and months. Redlining and changes and by the time the project is done, it looks nothing like the "original draft". If your lucky it's still under budget and doesn't get canceled for going over.

 

None of these things accurately represent the way in which a television writing room actually functions, at least based on the general practices that were explained to me by my aforementioned TV writer collaborator.

Edited May 3 by DigificWriter

[Samt]

12 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Objecting to a term like "the Dragon Reborn" being applied explicitly to characters other than Rand is emblematic of the ignorance and naivete that fuels threads like this one and that leads directly to gatekeeping and unfair attacks on the credibility and competence of the individuals responsible for this adaptation.

 

It's also the epitome of pedantry.

We get it.  You don't like the books and don't care about them.

 

Calling LTT the Dragon Reborn is not what is making the show bad and ultimately not a big deal on its own.  It's just an obvious example of the problem that pervades the writing.  It shows that the writers don't really understand or care about the source material.  It's basically inconceivable that some higher-ups forced them to not simply call him the Dragon.  The writers did it all on their own.  There was no greater plan.  No reason that it condenses the story or helps make it more understandable for TV.  They did it because they couldn't be bothered to get it right.  

 

That's the point of this thread.  For all of the constraints and setbacks and challenges, a lot of the failures are just an obvious lack of motivation to understand the books and faithfully adapt them.  

 

When I say that I'm not really interested as to why, it's because it all feels like an excuse.  It's like somebody explaining to me why a joke is funny when I didn't laugh.  The show is bad.  Explanations don't make it better.  

[SinisterDeath]

33 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

None of these things accurately represent the way in which a television writing room actually functions, at least based on the general practices that were explained to me by my aforementioned TV writer collaborator.

Producers/Studio Executives can and will interfere with how a Movie/TV show is written or directed.
The metaphor of "Architecture" and "writing" was used to illustrate the relationship between the Client (producer) and the architect (Writer). 

 

"Change orders" are a very real thing in the construction industry that causes Architects/Drafters to beat their head against a wall when the client makes a new demand.... and this is also something that 100% definitely exists in Hollywood... because ultimately the client is the person with the money (Producer).

[DigificWriter]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

We get it.  You don't like the books and don't care about them.

 

Calling LTT the Dragon Reborn is not what is making the show bad and ultimately not a big deal on its own.  It's just an obvious example of the problem that pervades the writing.  It shows that the writers don't really understand or care about the source material.  It's basically inconceivable that some higher-ups forced them to not simply call him the Dragon.  The writers did it all on their own.  There was no greater plan.  No reason that it condenses the story or helps make it more understandable for TV.  They did it because they couldn't be bothered to get it right.  

 

That's the point of this thread.  For all of the constraints and setbacks and challenges, a lot of the failures are just an obvious lack of motivation to understand the books and faithfully adapt them.  

 

When I say that I'm not really interested as to why, it's because it all feels like an excuse.  It's like somebody explaining to me why a joke is funny when I didn't laugh.  The show is bad.  Explanations don't make it better.  

 

You can keep making these claims until you are blue in the face; however, repeating them ad nauseam will not change the basic fact that nothing you say even remotely comports with the knowledge and experiences that I have gained as it pertains to the actual general processes of television writing in general and adaptational television writing in particular.

 

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Producers/Studio Executives can and will interfere with how a Movie/TV show is written or directed.
The metaphor of "Architecture" and "writing" was used to illustrate the relationship between the Client (producer) and the architect (Writer). 

 

"Change orders" are a very real thing in the construction industry that causes Architects/Drafters to beat their head against a wall when the client makes a new demand.... and this is also something that 100% definitely exists in Hollywood... because ultimately the client is the person with the money (Producer).

 

What follows is a general description of how the television writing process generally works and how a television writing room typically functions, as per the experience of my TV writer collaborator.

 

The process for creating a television series typically begins with a writers' meeting that usually occurs about a month before production begins. At this meeting, the Showrunner generally presents an overall layout of stories that need to be taken from idea to completed script, and writing assignments for individual scripts are then given out, with the priority being the premiere episode(s) (if the premiere is intended to be a multi-parter).

 

Each individual writer is then given a predetermined period of time by the Showrunner in which to take their assigned projects from planning to initial draft to final approved script; this period of time is typically 7 to 8 days (which is the standard minimal shooting time for a single episode of television), and allows a television series to be continually filming without having to pause the workflow.

 

Some notes on the typical functions and duties of a Showrunner:

1. They are usually the seniormost writer in a writer's room

2. They are the final authority when it comes to the finalization of all scripts

3. They may or may not provide a 'final polish' on the scripts that are submitted to them

4. They may or may not reach out to or collaborate with other members of the production team (such as a Consulting Producer) before offering final approval to an individual script, or instruct an individual writer to do so themselves

[Samt]

20 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

You can keep making these claims until you are blue in the face; however, repeating them ad nauseam will not change the basic fact that nothing you say even remotely comports with the knowledge and experiences that I have gained as it pertains to the actual general processes of television writing in general and adaptational television writing in particular.

 

You keep trying to make this really complicated but refuse to answer direct questions about it.  I'm inclined to believe that's because they don't have good answers, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.  

 

So use your knowledge and experience to explain to me:

 

Why did the writers choose to call LTT the Dragon Reborn instead of the Dragon?

[DigificWriter]

6 minutes ago, Samt said:

You keep trying to make this really complicated but refuse to answer direct questions about it.  I'm inclined to believe that's because they don't have good answers, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.  

 

So use your knowledge and experience to explain to me:

 

Why did the writers choose to call LTT the Dragon Reborn instead of the Dragon?

 

I'm not in their heads and therefore cannot provide an answer. You would need to pose that question directly to Rafe.

 

My guess, based on how my own individual thought process works when it comes to writing, would be that it provides an easy shorthand for anyone who isn't intimately familiar with the books while also accurately reflecting a truth about the nature of reincarnation in the world of the books and television series.

 

You pedantically obsessing over it as if it's some egregious faux pas (it's not) only serves as an indictment of you, not the writers.

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

What follows is a general description of how the television writing process generally works and how a television writing room typically functions, as per the experience of my TV writer collaborator.

 

The process for creating a television series typically begins with a writers' meeting that usually occurs about a month before production begins. At this meeting, the Showrunner generally presents an overall layout of stories that need to be taken from idea to completed script, and writing assignments for individual scripts are then given out, with the priority being the premiere episode(s) (if the premiere is intended to be a multi-parter).

 

Each individual writer is then given a predetermined period of time by the Showrunner in which to take their assigned projects from planning to initial draft to final approved script; this period of time is typically 7 to 8 days (which is the standard minimal shooting time for a single episode of television), and allows a television series to be continually filming without having to pause the workflow.

 

Some notes on the typical functions and duties of a Showrunner:

1. They are usually the seniormost writer in a writer's room

2. They are the final authority when it comes to the finalization of all scripts

3. They may or may not provide a 'final polish' on the scripts that are submitted to them

4. They may or may not reach out to or collaborate with other members of the production team (such as a Consulting Producer) before offering final approval to an individual script, or instruct an individual writer to do so themselves

You're neglecting that these are Streaming Networks. Yes these are "Series", but they've changed the game and how the deals were made between writers/directors.

What you're describing is how Writing Rooms USED to work for standard broadcast television... Back when Seinfeld or Lost was popular.

 

The reason I mentioned show runners used to have "skin in the game", is because... Skin in the game = $$. Back in the the day, show Runners were often producers of their own shows because they often had to put their own money into their show to get a network to buy it. This information shouldn't be news to anyone.

However, like I said, Netflix "changed" the game. They effectively removed that barrier by just "letting anyone" make a show. That means... contracts changed.... and when contracts change, so did the balance of power.
 

How "writing rooms" work in "Streaming" are fundamentally different then how they were 10-20 years ago for standard broadcast television... Again, they changed the "balance of power".. It's completely shifted in favor of the "streaming provider" and out of the hands of the show runner.

This is literally a Huge chunk of what the writers guild strike last summer was about.

 

You might have got lucky and worked with a writer that worked on a show that actually still worked in a "classic writing room environment", but unfortunately that's not how every writing room operates these days... Hell, not every show even has a writing room... Again, something the writers guild strike was literally about!

[DigificWriter]

@SinisterDeath The writer's strike was primarily about the following things:

1. Writers' pay in an era of digital streaming

2. Protections against AI being used to replace writers altogether

3. Pension and Healthcare benefits

4. Job security for writers

 

None of these things have anything whatsoever to do with the general operation and functions of writers' rooms, which do still exist in far more television productions than you seem to think.

[Samt]

15 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I'm not in their heads and therefore cannot provide an answer. You would need to pose that question directly to Rafe.

 

My guess, based on how my own individual thought process works when it comes to writing, would be that it provides an easy shorthand for anyone who isn't intimately familiar with the books while also accurately reflecting a truth about the nature of reincarnation in the world of the books and television series.

 

You pedantically obsessing over it as if it's some egregious faux pas (it's not) only serves as an indictment of you, not the writers.

So you're guessing they did it on purpose? 

 

In truth, the nature of reincarnation in the books is not really fully explored.  Most people (basically everyone but Rand) have no idea who they were in past lives.  They believe and understand that they did had past lives and hope for their rebirth, but it doesn't have much affect at all on the story or characters.  Who were Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, etc. in past lives?  The books don't explore this and it kind of doesn't matter.  Maybe Mat is Aemon or Egwene is Pacume or Elayne is Ilyena.  There is evidence to support it, but it's way beyond what would help the show make sense to the casual show watcher.  

 

But to be clear, you're arguing that a room of writers that thought maybe killing Thom Merrilin permanently or making Perrin a bearbrother had deep thoughts about how making LTT the Dragon Reborn streamlines the lore.  Frankly, I think it opens a can of worms.  Most casual viewers probably didn't even think about it.  

 

You're right that it's a bit pedantic to care if it was just this one thing.  As I said, it's just a clear example.  

[SinisterDeath]

57 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@SinisterDeath The writer's strike was primarily about the following things:

1. Writers' pay in an era of digital streaming

2. Protections against AI being used to replace writers altogether

3. Pension and Healthcare benefits

4. Job security for writers

 

None of these things have anything whatsoever to do with the general operation and functions of writers' rooms, which do still exist in far more television productions than you seem to think.

https://variety.com/2023/biz/news/wga-new-contract-strike-ai-writers-room-staffs-residuals-1235736648/
 

Quote

MINIMUM TV WRITERS ROOM STAFFING

The WGA asked for a minimum of six writers for a series that has been greenlighted for at least six episodes per season. The agreement calls for at least three writer-producers (members who are more senior) to be hired on all series, and that number can include the showrunner. The number of members at the more junior writer or staff writer level will rise on a sliding scale depending on the number of episodes ordered. A six-episode series calls for at least three writer-level hires. Series than run 7-12 episodes per season have to hire five writers; series that run 13 episodes or more must hire six writers.

https://www.thewrap.com/writers-rooms-wga-strike/
 

Quote

“The writers’ room is under attack,” said “New Amsterdam” creator David Schulner on Tuesday from the first round of picket lines at Netflix’s production offices in Los Angeles. “These proposals on mandatory staffing aren’t really a push for anything new. We’re fighting to protect the way television writers have worked and been paid for years. But because writers’ rooms aren’t something that is codified in our contract, streaming studios are systematically working to disassemble it.”

Quote

The rise of streaming, especially over the past few years, has muddled this process. Studios, particularly streamers like Netflix, increasingly use mini-rooms to order more scripts before a project is even greenlit. For a time, mini-rooms were seen by some writers as a way to sweeten the pot when convincing streamers to greenlight their shows, as they were able to give executives a better idea of where a show’s story was headed.

Quote

But Luvh Rakhe, writer for the FX show “Dave” and member of the WGA negotiating committee, said mini-rooms have become abused in a way that has led to lower pay for writers, and fewer opportunities to gain the experience with the production process that naturally comes with traditional writers’ rooms, as only a fraction of the writers brought into mini-rooms end up being hired alongside the showrunner by the studio to oversee scripts through production.

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

Why did the writers choose to call LTT the Dragon Reborn instead of the Dragon?

It is not impossible that this is a deliberate "dumbing down", as one of the things WoT does not do great is be consistent with the cyclical nature of the Wheel. LTT being the First Dragon, and Rand the second, directly contradicts the cyclical narrative. If Rand is LTT reborn, LTT is Rand reborn. Plus, it in the lore, it never makes any effort to explain what the Dragon is. Or I totally missed it if it did. 

 

It could be that it was felt that Dragon always being the Dragon Reborn better conveyed the nature of the Wheel without needing to explain constantly. Just as the Shadow is always called the Dark (*shudders*) it could be a simplification of terms for consistency and to give a more solid base to the world. In the Walking Dead I always thought all the different names for the walkers really added colour, but in WoT perhaps they decided to keep terminology as easy to understand as possible. 

 

Not sure I am very convinced by that argument, and it was not a simple error in the understanding of the lore, but it certainly is a possibility. 

 

On the more general topic, I think there are clear differences between,

• changes such as Moiraine being the star, with many changes to enlarge and deepen her role which were very much chosen a priori
• changes such as Perrin killing his wife to try explain his motivations in story (which can also easily be broken in visual nuggets for the "Previously on" preamble), which are trying to tell the same story in a better way for TV or the runtime they have
• changes such as apparently combining Semirhage and Moggie into one character (that looks like what they have done?) to condense the story, or combining the ashagarai and dagger into a light sabre which also serves as a plot device (note, some of these may be better than others, but I'll leave that up to the individual to decide)
• changes such as the blight due to budget and priority of screen time
• changes forced by actors not being available or covid, or other issues.

There is a lot going on. They have to make a lot of changes, I don't see how that is escapable no matter how "true" to the books you want to be. One change I was disappointed with was Maiden handtalk - in my headcanon it is all flicks of the fingers, much more like a really complicated Navy SEAL gesture commands (if anyone understands what I mean by that terrible description). The way the have put it in, does not seem like something you can use while crouched in cover, and it is the opposite of discrete. But they obviously tried hard to make a language that was plausible, presumably also to people that understood sign language, so you can hardly call it a deviation from the source because they don't respect it (just in case anyone missed that making of segment, they actually had an expert in sign language create a series of consistent gestures that they taught the actresses playing the Aiel). 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

changes such as apparently combining Semirhage and Moggie into one character (that looks like what they have done?)

This is interesting speculation... Why do you think that? [As an aside, I have to say one of the things they've done very right is the villains. They've been great.]

 

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

On the more general topic, I think there are clear differences between,

• changes such as Moiraine being the star, with many changes to enlarge and deepen her role which were very much chosen a priori
• changes such as Perrin killing his wife to try explain his motivations in story (which can also easily be broken in visual nuggets for the "Previously on" preamble), which are trying to tell the same story in a better way for TV or the runtime they have
• changes such as apparently combining Semirhage and Moggie into one character (that looks like what they have done?) to condense the story, or combining the ashagarai and dagger into a light sabre which also serves as a plot device (note, some of these may be better than others, but I'll leave that up to the individual to decide)
• changes such as the blight due to budget and priority of screen time
• changes forced by actors not being available or covid, or other issues.

This is spot on.  

[fearbrog]

With directions show already took with male and female characters I fully expecting Lews will be responsible for the Bore now, as lead researcher of even sole driller. And to expand on Lanfear she would be reliable one and try to stop foolish and arrogant Dragon, but he didn't listen and his distrust and ambition pushed her into Shadow, not her own nature. You know, to not create another character, it's TV and limited runtime and condense story and less budget to another actor. After all Lews The Dragon Reborn already known for audience as breaker of world, why not make him more heinous to "convey the nature" of Breaking. People would love such change, some probably gonna say how book didn't really focused on the Bore.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is interesting speculation... Why do you think that?

Well, it is only speculation, but Moggie in her entrance, is scary. Moghedien in the books is not, she is one of the least impressive Chosen and more or less looked down on by the others. I'd say it also makes sense, they have moved from 13 to 8 Chosen, and Semirhage apart from being the scariest actually is a pretty flat character, really only having a back story about being a sadistic mental health therapist and being the one that scares the other Chosen, rather than intimidates due to strength in the power. Moghedien if I remember rightly does not really have much of a back story, not anything that stands out anyway. 

 

Moghedien would never attack Lanfear and then let her off with a warning. She would have struck from the Shadows and killed her or remained hidden (in my humble opinion based on the book's character). But show Moghedien was showing off hugely and was telling Lanfear off like a naughty little girl and Lanfear was terrified. So by combining Semirhage's cruelty, terrifyingness and her back story, with Moghedien's MO of hiding in the Shadows and actual role in the story, it seems like an amalgamation that could capture the essence of both characters, and would make Moggie's appearance at the end of season 2 make much more sense in terms of character. 

 

Of course they could have just upped her character on a par with Lanfear and Ishamael, but to me it makes more sense Moggie will be the new unhinged torturer. 

 

I'm sure time will prove me wrong lol.

[A Memory Of Why]

On 5/4/2024 at 7:36 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Well, it is only speculation, but Moggie in her entrance, is scary. Moghedien in the books is not, she is one of the least impressive Chosen and more or less looked down on by the others. I'd say it also makes sense, they have moved from 13 to 8 Chosen, and Semirhage apart from being the scariest actually is a pretty flat character, really only having a back story about being a sadistic mental health therapist and being the one that scares the other Chosen, rather than intimidates due to strength in the power. Moghedien if I remember rightly does not really have much of a back story, not anything that stands out anyway. 

 

Moghedien would never attack Lanfear and then let her off with a warning. She would have struck from the Shadows and killed her or remained hidden (in my humble opinion based on the book's character). But show Moghedien was showing off hugely and was telling Lanfear off like a naughty little girl and Lanfear was terrified. So by combining Semirhage's cruelty, terrifyingness and her back story, with Moghedien's MO of hiding in the Shadows and actual role in the story, it seems like an amalgamation that could capture the essence of both characters, and would make Moggie's appearance at the end of season 2 make much more sense in terms of character. 

 

Of course they could have just upped her character on a par with Lanfear and Ishamael, but to me it makes more sense Moggie will be the new unhinged torturer. 

 

I'm sure time will prove me wrong lol.

 

I think Moggys intro was quite terrifying, instantly compelling Nyn and Elayne, making them her puppets, than letting them go for shits and giggles.

 

Follow that with her incredibly humbling the black sisters, she's insane.!

 

Based on the Forsaken statues in season 1, Semihage seems like one of the 4 females..

 

Lanfear = looks like a priestess

Greandel = Boobs

Moggy = kinda looks like a nun with a spidery cracked dress, actually made me think of Messaana

"Semihage" = tall, straight long hair, long thin neck which reminds me of those tribal African neck rings

 

If I had to guess Moggy will be merged with Messaana, Messy doesn't really come into it till Moggy gets humbled by death.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

I think Moggys intro was quite terrifying, instantly compelling Nyn and Elayne, making them her puppets, than letting them go for shits and giggles.

 

Follow that with her incredibly humbling the black sisters, she's insane.!

 

Based on the Forsaken statues in season 1, Semihage seems like one of the 4 females..

 

Lanfear = looks like a priestess

Greandel = Boobs

Moggy = kinda looks like a nun with a spidery cracked dress, actually made me think of Messaana

"Semihage" = tall, straight long hair, long thin neck which reminds me of those tribal African neck rings

 

If I had to guess Moggy will be merged with Messaana, Messy doesn't really come into it till Moggy gets humbled by death.

You could indeed have it right, I am only speculating. Yes, Moggie has the arrogance of the Chosen regarding the Channelers of the present age. But she was hiding as a serving woman while the others took over Kingdoms and set-up palaces full of unimaginable wealth and she would not have risked a confrontation with Rand or any of the Chosen. Scary, yes, but scary as the spider she is named after. The show gave me much more Semirhage vibes, but maybe that is just me.