Faile is SO toxic! (The Shadow Rising)

[JeffreyBoring]

I really wanted to like Faile, and maybe the character is written better later, but I just can't with her. She is so enormously awful. Selfish and mean about every single thing. And Perrin is the one that got strapped with her? She's horrible to him, bullying and even abusive in nearly every interaction. I'll grant that Perrin is obnoxiously "protective" of her to the point that he steals her personal agency trying to keep her out of any danger. That's also gross. However, they are easily the most toxic "good" relationship I've read in ages, and it's nearly enough to quit reading to avoid this narrative.

Edited August 2, 2023 by JeffreyBoring

[Samt]

I actually really like their story.  That's not to say that I think everything they do is good (and it definitely drags on too long through the Shaido arc).  I think WoT in general is much better if you don't assume you're supposed to like all of the good guys or think that everything they do is good (especially not at the beginning).  

[DojoToad]

15 hours ago, JeffreyBoring said:

I really wanted to like Faile, and maybe the character is written better later, but I just can't with her. She is so enormously awful. Selfish and mean about every single thing. And Perrin is the one that got strapped with her? She's horrible to him, bullying and even abusive in nearly every interaction. I'll grant that Perrin is obnoxiously "protective" of her to the point that he steals her personal agency trying to keep her out of any danger. That's also gross. However, they are easily the most toxic "good" relationship I've read in ages, and it's nearly enough to quit reading to avoid this narrative.

It gets worse...

[Scarloc99]

For me it is one of the most real relationship in the books. 2 people who are very opposite in terms of personality but clearly love each other battle to try and find their place with each other. Faile has left where she grew up determined to escape duty and be free of her obligations. She then finds herself time and again being drawn back into the role she was trying to escape. 
 

Perrin has been brought up with a very traditional idea of the roles of men and women based on what he thinks he sees in the interactions growing up. He has no one to explain all the intricacies and what goes on behind the visual facade. 
 

so you have 2 people who have conflicting views on things, in a world with human eating trollocs, magic and other horrors. 
 

I personally find Failles development across the series to be one of the best in terms of the side characters she actually develops, grows and changes. 

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

For me it is one of the most real relationship in the books. 2 people who are very opposite in terms of personality but clearly love each other battle to try and find their place with each other. Faile has left where she grew up determined to escape duty and be free of her obligations. She then finds herself time and again being drawn back into the role she was trying to escape. 
 

Perrin has been brought up with a very traditional idea of the roles of men and women based on what he thinks he sees in the interactions growing up. He has no one to explain all the intricacies and what goes on behind the visual facade. 
 

so you have 2 people who have conflicting views on things, in a world with human eating trollocs, magic and other horrors. 
 

I personally find Failles development across the series to be one of the best in terms of the side characters she actually develops, grows and changes. 

I don't have any problem with Faile or Perrin as characters (their arcs on the other hand...).  As you pointed out, they were both born and raised with very different expectations of gender roles/responsibilities - which was a fine way to add tension and give each character the opportunity to grow and change.

 

My initial comment to the OP was just pointing out that if the OP couldn't stand reading their interplay in tSR, they would like it even less as the story advances.

[king of nowhere]

On 8/2/2023 at 8:01 PM, JeffreyBoring said:

I really wanted to like Faile, and maybe the character is written better later, but I just can't with her. She is so enormously awful. Selfish and mean about every single thing. And Perrin is the one that got strapped with her? She's horrible to him, bullying and even abusive in nearly every interaction. I'll grant that Perrin is obnoxiously "protective" of her to the point that he steals her personal agency trying to keep her out of any danger. That's also gross. However, they are easily the most toxic "good" relationship I've read in ages, and it's nearly enough to quit reading to avoid this narrative.

I have trouble thinking of a single healty relationship in the whole 14 books (maybe rand and elayne in the stone of tear), but perrin and faile take the cake.

there was an interview from robert jordan saying something like men in his family having to be strong to avoid being dominated by the strong women around that makes me think he grew up in a fairly disfunctional environment where bullying was the norm, and that reflects in his characters.

 

the wheel of time has a lot of issues like that. in the end, you can decide to keep reading or to stop there. but ultimately, I think the best way to take all that "gender relationship" garbage is for what it is: a projection from the culture of the time the book was written. isn't it funny how we write about people from different worlds, in different times, with all kinds of magic, but they all share our fundamental moral values? you never read a book with a protagonist thinking it's all right to burn someone as an heretic, or to stone someone for infidelity, or that it's ok to marry and have children at age 13, or to own slaves. probably we'll also find the books written 50 years in the future to be very strange.

anyway, the point is, at the time wot was written, a lot of stuff was ok that is now definitely not ok. just roll with it.

there are much bigger value dissonances when we consider works of the distant past, like those of shakespear or dante. but in that case we accept that because we know them for what they are. I guess wot is close enough to us that we don't activate the disconnection "this is written by people from a far past who had values very different from ours, i must not take this as a moral guide". we recognize the values in wot as our own, until something like domestic violence pops up.

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

It gets worse...

ah, but then it gets better. eventually.

[Samt]

16 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I have trouble thinking of a single healty relationship in the whole 14 books (maybe rand and elayne in the stone of tear), but perrin and faile take the cake.

there was an interview from robert jordan saying something like men in his family having to be strong to avoid being dominated by the strong women around that makes me think he grew up in a fairly disfunctional environment where bullying was the norm, and that reflects in his characters.

 

the wheel of time has a lot of issues like that. in the end, you can decide to keep reading or to stop there. but ultimately, I think the best way to take all that "gender relationship" garbage is for what it is: a projection from the culture of the time the book was written. isn't it funny how we write about people from different worlds, in different times, with all kinds of magic, but they all share our fundamental moral values? you never read a book with a protagonist thinking it's all right to burn someone as an heretic, or to stone someone for infidelity, or that it's ok to marry and have children at age 13, or to own slaves. probably we'll also find the books written 50 years in the future to be very strange.

anyway, the point is, at the time wot was written, a lot of stuff was ok that is now definitely not ok. just roll with it.

there are much bigger value dissonances when we consider works of the distant past, like those of shakespear or dante. but in that case we accept that because we know them for what they are. I guess wot is close enough to us that we don't activate the disconnection "this is written by people from a far past who had values very different from ours, i must not take this as a moral guide". we recognize the values in wot as our own, until something like domestic violence pops up.

ah, but then it gets better. eventually.

The WoT is not that old and I don't think values have really changed for the better since then.  The inclination to need to label relationships as "healthy" or otherwise is a symptom of the disease that is affecting the modern world.  Everyone is at least a little bit broken and that means that relationships with real people will also sometimes be a little bit broken.  The response to finding something broken in a relationship should usually be trying to fix it.   Throwing out a relationship the first time something gets a little bit tough because it's "unhealthy" is exactly why divorce, unhappiness, mental illness, loneliness, and isolation are all so prevalent in our society today.   

 

The Perrin and Faile relationship is between two people with different expectations that aren't really very good at communicating their expectations.  But they both commit to the relationship and make it work.  And in the end they are both better for it.  

 

I would argue that actually most of the relationships in WoT (at least those between protagonists) are ultimately pretty realistic.  And for the most part they end up in healthy places, even though there are points where the relationships seem broken and the participants are even cruel to each other.  

Edited August 4, 2023 by Samt

[king of nowhere]

12 minutes ago, Samt said:

The WoT is not that old and I don't think values have really changed for the better since then.  The inclination to need to label relationships as "healthy" or otherwise is a symptom of the disease that is affecting the modern world.  Everyone is at least a little bit broken and that means that relationships with real people will also sometimes be a little bit broken. 

look, i'm all for "try to fix things with your loved ones before leaving them forever", but there is a vast gulf between "throwing out a relationship the first time something gets a little bit tough" and "your partner beats you on a regular base and you think it's your fault".

Quote

The response to finding something broken in a relationship should usually be trying to fix it.

and perhaps the most damning thing in wot relationships is that almost nobody tries to. faile never tries to fix anything. egwene never tries to communicate with her partner(s). nynaeve never communicates, but luckily for her lan is good at reading her. and let's not even get into what will happen with mat. there are very few instances where people sit down and talk things through like rational adults.

I'd be willing to call perrin's relationship ok if faile made any attempt to communicate her problems to perrin. especially because perrin tryies to be the best husband all the time. she can't even claim culture clash, because unlike perrin, she was raised into a court, with the expectation of political marriage to some foreign prince; she should know about different cultures and expectations. instead, faile does all she can to make perrin feel miserable. jut because she hopes he will get angry and will "fight" with her. when all she had to do would be explain that fact to perrin. 

her scene with berelain is also pretty cringy. she pulled a knife on a woman who wanted to court her husband. we can find many similar instances in newspapers, and they never lead to anything good.

 

Quote

Throwing out a relationship the first time something gets a little bit tough because it's "unhealthy" is exactly why divorce, unhappiness, mental illness, loneliness, and isolation are all so prevalent in our society today.  

 

I'm not touching any real life implications. too much of a potential flamebait

[VooDooNut]

It'll be interesting to see how Perrin and Faile are represented in the show, if only for another perspective. It's definitely a challenging relationship for me to understand when I read through the books. More tragic than confusing.

[Scarloc99]

On 8/4/2023 at 5:20 PM, king of nowhere said:

look, i'm all for "try to fix things with your loved ones before leaving them forever", but there is a vast gulf between "throwing out a relationship the first time something gets a little bit tough" and "your partner beats you on a regular base and you think it's your fault".

and perhaps the most damning thing in wot relationships is that almost nobody tries to. faile never tries to fix anything. egwene never tries to communicate with her partner(s). nynaeve never communicates, but luckily for her lan is good at reading her. and let's not even get into what will happen with mat. there are very few instances where people sit down and talk things through like rational adults.

I'd be willing to call perrin's relationship ok if faile made any attempt to communicate her problems to perrin. especially because perrin tryies to be the best husband all the time. she can't even claim culture clash, because unlike perrin, she was raised into a court, with the expectation of political marriage to some foreign prince; she should know about different cultures and expectations. instead, faile does all she can to make perrin feel miserable. jut because she hopes he will get angry and will "fight" with her. when all she had to do would be explain that fact to perrin. 

her scene with berelain is also pretty cringy. she pulled a knife on a woman who wanted to court her husband. we can find many similar instances in newspapers, and they never lead to anything good.

 

 

I'm not touching any real life implications. too much of a potential flamebait

I will say out of them all I have the most hope for Mat, it seems his position traditionally in Seanchan is probably short lived and not about romance or love. Tuon however seems to be accepting change far quicker. She sees that the people in Randland are different to what she is used to and accepts that. She gets they won’t try and usurp her, or kill her. She and Mat can forge something like a real relationship and his centuries of memories will help him navigate the intricacies of court. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Relationships can be healthy or unhealthy regardless of societal norms, wot world included. Additionally everyone has their own beliefs about the subject and how they define it one way or the other. I hate to rely on cliche, but it does apply here. Communication, agency, and free choice between partners is usually a good foundation. I agree faile and Perrin have a foundation based on actual love, but it was agonizing for me to read through the confusing dissent between them stemming from a situation lacking communication and expecting a mind reading scenario based on game playing and manipulation on failes part. Same thing with Elayne and her letters to Rand, or really any of the main love relationships. Having said that, it is very accurate and authentic in terms of how most relationships play out. Which is why I love wot. Very realistic. 

[JeffreyBoring]

I’m trying to decide if I can finish the series. I’m in The Fires of Heaven right now, and I can’t stand how every single character is being paired off with someone (obviously of the opposite gender) and how all the women are portrayed as being constantly angry, while the men are portrayed as being forever perplexed by the mystery of women. Not only does it feel extremely dated; it feels like Robert Jordan is airing out his deeply upsetting relationship to women. When Elaine is flirting with Thom… WTH, Bob? She knows he was her mom’s boyfriend. It’s not necessary to insert this, or even interesting. It makes Elaine less complex (and she’s already a paper thin character, so far) than when we met her 5 books back. If I could get a single chapter where romantic interest isn’t emphasized, I think I could find the motivation. The overall epic of the thing is compelling, but the gender essentialism and “wool headed” pining over the any given character’s romantic aspirations is vomit inducing. I just want this to be well-written, as well as compelling, but the obsession with who likes whom and do they like each other back is the most middle school level nonsense. I’m ranting, because today I literally screamed when a paragraph seemed to be furthering the plot, and then somebody commented about how mad they were at someone they’re crushing on.
 

Does it get better?

 

 

[JeffreyBoring]

On 8/4/2023 at 12:20 PM, king of nowhere said:

her scene with berelain is also pretty cringy. she pulled a knife on a woman who wanted to court her husband. we can find many similar instances in newspapers, and they never lead to anything good.

It feels like this is simply how Robert Jordan views women. ALL THE TIME!

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

5 hours ago, JeffreyBoring said:

Does it get better?

Well….yes and no. I found myself cringing through many or probably most romantic plots and other dynamics besides (why the eff is everyone in this universe spanking each other? It’s the accepted discipline tactic within an organization of grown adults, and commonly and casually used in conversations as an appropriate approach for men to use against women) .yet I still consider myself a super fan and inexplicably found myself tolerating and accepting some themes that otherwise would deter me and kept me reading and loving the series. 

[RextheDog]

does it get better?

 

romantically...no.

 

Jordans world is amazing and epic....his stories are brilliant....but his romantic relationships...he rarely gets right.

 

Min and Rand i think is on point.....couple of others...Egwene for one never takes a backseat for romance...

 

 

[DojoToad]

11 hours ago, JeffreyBoring said:

I’m trying to decide if I can finish the series. I’m in The Fires of Heaven right now, and I can’t stand how every single character is being paired off with someone (obviously of the opposite gender) and how all the women are portrayed as being constantly angry, while the men are portrayed as being forever perplexed by the mystery of women. Not only does it feel extremely dated; it feels like Robert Jordan is airing out his deeply upsetting relationship to women. When Elaine is flirting with Thom… WTH, Bob? She knows he was her mom’s boyfriend. It’s not necessary to insert this, or even interesting. It makes Elaine less complex (and she’s already a paper thin character, so far) than when we met her 5 books back. If I could get a single chapter where romantic interest isn’t emphasized, I think I could find the motivation. The overall epic of the thing is compelling, but the gender essentialism and “wool headed” pining over the any given character’s romantic aspirations is vomit inducing. I just want this to be well-written, as well as compelling, but the obsession with who likes whom and do they like each other back is the most middle school level nonsense. I’m ranting, because today I literally screamed when a paragraph seemed to be furthering the plot, and then somebody commented about how mad they were at someone they’re crushing on.
 

Does it get better?

 

 

Not my favorite part of the books, but didn’t put me off as strongly as it did you. If it is not your thing, move on. Why frustrate yourself?

 

Personally, I think the series resolution is worth pushing through the ‘bad’ parts. 

[Scarloc99]

To be honest Egwene and Gawyn is more frustrating later on, and I think Gawyn is far more an example of toxic masculinity. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I agree with a lot of the points here (especially the corporal punishment being such a normal thing, with such an emphasis on young women and within relationships, in which it is a positive thing, not a negative thing). There are other points where sometimes I think we can see more than we should of RJ's mind, such as the White Tower's novice quarters being a hotbed of sapphic love, whereas warder's students, army camps, the Fortress of Light, Borderland defensive towers, Aiel warrior societies, or any all male environments are all completely platonic.

 

One of things that really got me a lot of the relationships is that the use of prophecy let's everyone know that they are on the right track. Spoilers for later in the series.

Spoiler

Doesn't matter how abusive Faile is, Min let Perrin know there is no escape. Who is Rand going to end up with? Min just has to meet them. Tuon and Mat? Both get told they will marry each other, and yet it would never have happened if both had not been told this. It was almost a relief when Galahad and Berelain met and just fancied the pants off each other, although you get the feeling they were paired off only because they were meant to be the most attractive male and female in the whole of Randland (except for Lanfear's original body perhaps?).