Is RJ a mysogynist or what?

[SinisterDeath]

If you find Wheel of Time offensive. I sugjest you don't read a Song of Ice and Fire. (or is it fire and ice? :P)

Also, don't watch tv.

or the News.

Of course, The only thing thats probably lacking anything offensive is children books... But then again, there are wolves eating grannies, and bears eating lil girls....

[DemandredFO]

Don't READ WOT if you're offended.

A. Tylin is the pattern's way of forcing Matt to be a big boy.

B. It is cultural

C. It is my "personal" opinion that this episode also, like many others, demonstrates the absurdity of not harming women at any cost.

 

This is my first and last comment on this thread

[Wanderer]

This is my first and last comment on this thread

 

Thanks god!

 

I'm joking man , but really, you shouldn't say to people "don't read" something just becouse they disagree with the author's mentality, or because they make critics to some point of the story...

The best way and right way to critic something is to know it very well, reading, watching etc etc...

I like WoT but I don't like that someone could consider forcing someone against his/her will natural and justified becouse it's a "cultural" difference...this is horrible.

[Lord Beric]

Jordan was born and raised in South Carolina before the civil rights movement and he went to the Citadel' date=' so it wouldn't come as a great shock to me if Jordan wrote those scenes as he did because he honestly believes Tylin didn't do anything morally wrong, only culturally. Which is EXACTLY what Jordan wrote, it was wrong because of a culture clash not because she violated him, and that is why I think he is a sexist (among other reasons).[/quote']

 

You're probably completely right here with this train of thought. It would be foolish for us to think that an author's own cultural biases wouldn't seep into his writing at least a little bit.

 

Of course, that being said, I have to take issue with somthing. By attempting to differentiate between something being morally and culturally wrong, you are implying that there exists some sort of moral imperative that acts as a set of universal truths. But the problem with this is that morality is simply another aspect of culture. There is no universal moral code.

 

So, while we all agree that Tylin's behaviour would be . . . abhorrent to say the least (if not downright illegal) in modern society, it's been fairly well demonstrated that in Ebou Dar she was acting only slightly outside the cultural norm, and THAT is the standard by which it should be judged if you're attempting to immerse yourself fully in RJ's world.

[DragonSpawn]

After reading all that' date=' I have a question for your guys. To put it delicately, can a man be raped if he is able to rise to the occasion. I guess as a naive female I thought that if a man can't function nothing happens. If a man functions then he is pleased. Am I wrong here? Could Matt have risen up if he was scared or unhappy with the situation. I just don't know if a knife at his throat would have inhibited him or if he was able to force himself to function to save his life. If so, I guess that might be considered rape.[/quote']

 

Of course. Theoretically there are several ways to rape a man, or if not outright rape then at least misuse them pretty badly;

 

a) Slip a drug into their drink to make them more open, aroused and uninhibited. Rape drug in reverse pretty much.

 

b) Purposely get the guy as drunk as possible since you know he won't sleep with you if he is sober. So get him so full his judgement is completely clouded. Although not really rape, not exactly nice either.

 

c) If you tie them up and do the whole kidnapper rapist thing. The penis is not normally under conscious control, it has lots of nerves and sensory neurones. You just have to stimulate the penis enough and it will get erect even if the man is not willing or screaming on the top of his lungs or crying to get free. On the same note very small electro-shocks from a taser will spare you the 5-10 minutes of manual stimulation and probably get it erect fairly quick through electric stimulation.

 

d) I could go on but I think you got the point.

 

So yes there are enough ways to rape a man as a woman.

[Wanderer]

Of course, that being said, I have to take issue with somthing. By attempting to differentiate between something being morally and culturally wrong, you are implying that there exists some sort of moral imperative that acts as a set of universal truths. But the problem with this is that morality is simply another aspect of culture. There is no universal moral code.

 

So, while we all agree that Tylin's behaviour would be . . . abhorrent to say the least (if not downright illegal) in modern society, it's been fairly well demonstrated that in Ebou Dar she was acting only slightly outside the cultural norm, and THAT is the standard by which it should be judged if you're attempting to immerse yourself fully in RJ's world.

 

Omg man, have you ever read THIS ? http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

 

No universal moral code? We have more than that!

What we are criticising is this: that part of the book is against basic human rights AND that Jordan let it pass as a point of humour...something people should laugh at.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I know that authors can create every world they like, as they like and so on..but the problem is what is behind the fantasy world, written between the lines.

[Stevenator]

RJ has said that the females in his life growing up were all strong willed independant women. So this is where he based mot of his female characters actions off of.

 

 

I think that's pretty weak. I mean, how old is he, 60?

[redbj]

got to agree with the opening post.

 

barring moraine who eventually accepts she needs to adjust to help rand they are all just a bit loopy.

 

really...why the hell is eggy and elayne in particular so hell bent on doing things with out his help...he's the bloody dragon reborn...get together all of you' date=' bow down to rand and get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world.[/b']

 

jordan could have made the lead females a bit easier to get along with and less predictable in my humble opinion.

 

 

 

thats it. shut up "bow down to Rand" and "get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world." 8)

 

 

im hoping the other 99% of the forum understood what i meant.but, because this is akin to a legal document how about instead of bow down....work with .......8) to you to

 

 

 

I see that I was misunderstood I really do agree with the statement thats why I commented sorry for coming across wrong but I feel the same way!!:oops: :!:

 

my bad.

 

alls well that ends well.

[Ninkharsag]

Hey I love the women of Rand land. I have worked with or known women like everyone of these characters. I think RJ has a lot of us pegged.

[Paradox]

I just wanted to say that I fullheartedly agree with Anonymous assessment of the Tylin/Mat "relationship". The only thing I can think of that would explain mat's reaction is some sort of stockholm syndrome.

 

And as for the question of a universally moral set of code. I have to say that even though there now exists a widespread agreement on some basic human rights, there isn't a universal natural moral. Moral and ethics are some thing humans create threw interactions with each other.

[Guest Anonymous!]

Torrente wrote:

 

I think you do have to read what is there, and a certain level of interpretation is left to the reader, but you cannot ignore things that you find disagreeable, no.

 

Lord Beric wrote:

 

…it's been fairly well demonstrated that in Ebou Dar she was acting only slightly outside the cultural norm, and THAT is the standard by which it should be judged if you're attempting to immerse yourself fully in RJ's world.

 

Lord Beric I asked a question of whether or not I was reading the books wrong. I stated the reason I felt the way I did and that if people didn't think the same way, then we would probably disagree. I was not saying that there is a universal "right" and "wrong," just the way I viewed "right" and "wrong."

 

I wasn't trying to force my opinions. I was only trying to understand the opinion of others. I wanted to understand why people loved a book I truly hated.

 

You and torrente are the only ones who came close to addressing the question I asked earlier. torrente apparently feels that you can give the author some room, but if the author is over the line, then you shouldn't accept it and laugh because the author says to. According to what you wrote, I'm not supposed to do that. I'm supposed to just accept what the author says is "right" and "wrong." That is the standard I should judge it by, and not my personal standard. (I hope I'm not putting words in either or your mouths)