book spoilers Question arising from my rewatch for book readers

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

In the last episode moiraine masks the bond so lan doesn’t follow her to the eye. Or something like that. Then she is cut off from being able to touch the OP. When lan finds her he is relieved that she is alive meaning the masking of the bond is apparently still in effect. I had been under the impression that any weave that is created has to be upheld to some degree by the channeler, such as maintaining a shield. I know that weaves can be tied off as a way of avoiding having to maintain it, but I don’t recall if tying it off would maintain the weave indefinitely. I assumed that if a channeler is shielded then they can’t access the source therefore any weaves in progress would dissolve meaning lan would have regained awareness of the bond. Can someone explain the mechanism behind the mask remaining intact without moiraine channeling to maintain it?

[king of nowhere]

14 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

In the last episode moiraine masks the bond so lan doesn’t follow her to the eye. Or something like that. Then she is cut off from being able to touch the OP. When lan finds her he is relieved that she is alive meaning the masking of the bond is apparently still in effect. I had been under the impression that any weave that is created has to be upheld to some degree by the channeler, such as maintaining a shield. I know that weaves can be tied off as a way of avoiding having to maintain it, but I don’t recall if tying it off would maintain the weave indefinitely. I assumed that if a channeler is shielded then they can’t access the source therefore any weaves in progress would dissolve meaning lan would have regained awareness of the bond. Can someone explain the mechanism behind the mask remaining intact without moiraine channeling to maintain it?

if you tie a wave, it stays there. there are plenty of waves from the age of legends still around, like the ones in [spoiler, not sure you read the books]. the people who made them are long dead, but the waves remain.

 

on the other hand, stilling would send lan into the death spiral, just like the death of the aes sedai.

but then, several details have been changed from the books. for example, in the tv show you can overdraw while in a circle, while in books you cannot. and women can feel their strenght just by being close, while in the tv show they cannot - moiraine didn't knew nynaeve was stronger than egwene until she channeled.

 

so, don't overanalyze what can or cannot be done with the one power according to book lore; the tv show made some changes, and I'll be fine with them as long as they stay consistent

[DojoToad]

We must relearn what we ‘know’

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

8 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

if you tie a wave, it stays there. there are plenty of waves from the age of legends still around, like the ones in [spoiler, not sure you read the books]. the people who made them are long dead, but the waves remain.

 

on the other hand, stilling would send lan into the death spiral, just like the death of the aes sedai.

but then, several details have been changed from the books. for example, in the tv show you can overdraw while in a circle, while in books you cannot. and women can feel their strenght just by being close, while in the tv show they cannot - moiraine didn't knew nynaeve was stronger than egwene until she channeled.

 

so, don't overanalyze what can or cannot be done with the one power according to book lore; the tv show made some changes, and I'll be fine with them as long as they stay consistent

Ok thank you for your input! I think your point about book mechanics are not always comparable to show canon is a good thing to remember. I think my confusion was based on my limited understanding and interpretation of instances in the books where tying off a weave would eventually wear off or weaken if the weaver left it alone. 
 

I have read the books, by the way, so spoilers are ok. My questions are based on my limited exposure from only one full read through. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Ok thank you for your input! I think your point about book mechanics are not always comparable to show canon is a good thing to remember. I think my confusion was based on my limited understanding and interpretation of instances in the books where tying off a weave would eventually wear off or weaken if the weaver left it alone. 
 

I have read the books, by the way, so spoilers are ok. My questions are based on my limited exposure from only one full read through. 

in that case, weaves could be tied so they would dissipate over time, or so that they would stay. the weaves around rhuidean are one examples of waves active after 3000 years

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

47 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

in that case, weaves could be tied so they would dissipate over time, or so that they would stay. the weaves around rhuidean are one examples of waves active after 3000 years

Oohhhh yes I see your point. I kinda wonder if I was specifically confused about weaves used on people. There’s a lot of evidence of permanent effects of channeling that modifies inanimate objects but I think I was viewing it in terms of permanently altering other people. Your point helped me realize that even if we limit the discussion to the possibility of weaves directed towards people that cause irreversible consequences, I just thought of an example myself which is graendals form of compulsion. Appreciate your input!

[Samt]

Many weaves simply permanently alter something. The weave isn’t tied off or maintained. The weave is completely gone but the effects remain. The simplest example is killing someone. You don’t have to tie off the weave to keep them dead. 
 

Other examples include the warder bond, severing, compulsion, Balefire, and the making of Terangreal and Angreal. The effects of the one power persist even when the weave is gone.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Samt

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

4 hours ago, Samt said:

Many weaves simply permanently alter something. The weave isn’t tied off or maintained. The weave is completely gone but the effects remain. The simplest example is killing someone. You don’t have to tie off the weave to keep them dead. 
 

Other examples include the warder bond, severing, compulsion, Balefire, and the making of Terangreal and Angreal. The effects of the one power persist even when the weave is gone.

Very good examples, thank you! Warder bond and severing end up to be capable of being altered but only when the accepted beliefs are questioned and challenged 

[Samt]

9 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Very good examples, thank you! Warder bond and severing end up to be capable of being altered but only when the accepted beliefs are questioned and challenged 

Right.  It's not that you can never undo the effects of the weave, although it may be difficult (or perhaps impossible in some cases, death for instance).  The point is that you can undo the effects of the weave by using another weave or by using other means.  But the weave itself is gone and cannot be directly interacted with or altered.  

 

You can move a rock with a weave.  Then someone else can come and move the rock back (either with another weave or by picking it up and moving it).  But you can't undo or change the weave itself.  You just reverse the effects of the weave.  

 

The difference is that some weaves leave a lingering 'supernatural' effect.  Regardless of how I move a rock, once it is in its new place and the weave is gone, it doesn't seem supernatural for it to be sitting in the new place.  The warder bond, on the other hand, for instance, is supernatural even after the weave is gone.  It's obvious that this isn't a mundane effect.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On 6/24/2023 at 8:50 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

In the last episode moiraine masks the bond so lan doesn’t follow her to the eye. Or something like that. Then she is cut off from being able to touch the OP. When lan finds her he is relieved that she is alive meaning the masking of the bond is apparently still in effect. I had been under the impression that any weave that is created has to be upheld to some degree by the channeler, such as maintaining a shield. I know that weaves can be tied off as a way of avoiding having to maintain it, but I don’t recall if tying it off would maintain the weave indefinitely. I assumed that if a channeler is shielded then they can’t access the source therefore any weaves in progress would dissolve meaning lan would have regained awareness of the bond. Can someone explain the mechanism behind the mask remaining intact without moiraine channeling to maintain it?

I think this would be very difficult to explain, even just in terms of the books. The bond is created by the power, but does not as such draw power to exist.

Spoiler

It is not broken by entering a stedding for example.

Therefore its nature is completely unknown, only that the one power is used to create it, but it is not of the one power itself. 

 

Also masking the bond is not done with the power, but is a mental trick of wrapping the sensation of the bond up in a mental cloth, so again not obviously using the power at all as the girls did not even need to embrace the source to do so.

Spoiler

However, as a complication, Min who could not channel, was the only one who had no success whatsoever in masking the bond.

Which means? Meh. Maybe Bela knows.

 

Though for the show... I just don't think we know enough. The bond should be broken if she were stilled according to book lore

Spoiler

(I think anyway, though how can Min be bound in that case?)

, but if the bond is still there, it should be a mental trick to mask/unmask it. But maybe only channelers can do it. Or maybe you need to have trained in channeling to be able to do it. The books as I remember them just are not that forth coming with specifics, don't know if the companion etc,. offer any more information about it.

 

I'd say the show want the bond not to be broken, but not functional, with suspicion of whether Moiraine cannot or will not unmask it. Seems a bit complicated and Lan's moping about it for so long is getting kind of grating. Probably will be explained to some degree later as they have made such a big deal about it so far.

Edited September 17, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think this would be very difficult to explain, even just in terms of the books. The bond is created by the power, but does not as such draw power to exist.

  Reveal hidden contents

It is not broken by entering a stedding for example.

Therefore its nature is completely unknown, only that the one power is used to create it, but it is not of the one power itself. 

 

Also masking the bond is not done with the power, but is a mental trick of wrapping the sensation of the bond up in a mental cloth, so again not obviously using the power at all as the girls did not even need to embrace the source to do so.

  Hide contents

However, as a complication, Min who could not channel, was the only one who had no success whatsoever in masking the bond.

Which means? Meh. Maybe Bela knows.

 

Though for the show... I just don't think we know enough. The bond should be broken if she were stilled according to book lore

  Hide contents

(I think anyway, though how can Min be bound in that case?)

, but if the bond is still there, it should be a mental trick to mask/unmask it. But maybe only channelers can do it. Or maybe you need to have trained in channeling to be able to do it. The books as I remember them just are not that forth coming with specifics, don't know if the companion etc,. offer any more information about it.

 

I'd say the show want the bond not to be broken, but not functional, with suspicion of whether Moiraine cannot or will not unmask it. Seems a bit complicated and Lan's moping about it for so long is getting kind of grating. Probably will be explained to some degree later as they have made such a big deal about it so far.

The only thing I can say for certain, is that they have probably changed the mechanics of the bond in ways that we do not know yet. 

 

Once they resolve the "mystery" of whether Moiraine is "stilled or shielded" (like the who is the dragon mystery from season 1), that will help clarify what's going on with their bond.

 

There's a few possible ways they could have changed it, and we can speculate until we're blue in the face, so I'm just going to WAFO.