Show vs book, but I think the question best belongs with book fans

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

This may be none of my business as it’s not directed at me but it’s posted on a forum where any members can read…was this meant to be mean or did I misinterpret it? Just curious, I’m new to this forum and have never participated in any other ones, so admittedly I have no context for interpreting the intent behind the statement which is why I’m asking. I’ve only been participating on this forum for a short time and while people certainly have some strong opinions and are sometimes very direct in their ways of expressing them, I have yet to see anything that seemed mean spirited but it could be that i just haven’t been around here long enough to see it, or that I misperceived your intent or that I’m just a little too naive and inexperienced in terms of how people interact in the world of anonymous forums. 

Calling someone a tool is generally not considered a compliment.  Some people are blunt, rude, mean, nice, complimentary, encouraging.  Some cycle through all of these.

[Elgee]

7 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

hile people certainly have some strong opinions and are sometimes very direct in their ways of expressing them, I have yet to see anything that seemed mean spirited but it could be that i just haven’t been around here long enough to see it

 

This, sadly, is something that happens quite often. A moderator will see to the matter but unfortunately we can't actually PREVENT people from posting such things, only moderate after the fact.

 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

18 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Calling someone a tool is generally not considered a compliment.  Some people are blunt, rude, mean, nice, complimentary, encouraging.  Some cycle through all of these.

Ok thank you for clearing that up…I’m an eternal optimist so while I was pretty sure it was not meant to be anything close to nice, I was hoping I was wrong and clinging to some possible other explanation. Your response was admirable in that you didn’t reciprocate with the same kind of energy. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

16 hours ago, Elgee said:

 

This, sadly, is something that happens quite often. A moderator will see to the matter but unfortunately we can't actually PREVENT people from posting such things, only moderate after the fact.

 

I appreciate your answer and explanation. It is sad but true…humanity isn’t always kind to each other. 

[nsmallw]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:16 AM, Blackbyrd said:

 

Why not ask Glenn Cook?

 

Then go ahead and query the Malazon?

 

I hoped for you Toad, that you could ever be anything more... . but you are nothing more than less than a tool of the ordinary. Enjoy the eddings of it 

 

What a tool

Hey Don't bash David Eddings. I have great fondness for his Belgariad series. Wonderful memories. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

Hey Don't bash David Eddings. I have great fondness for his Belgariad series. Wonderful memories. 

I enjoy him too.  Not as much as Jordan or GRRM, but still an enjoyable read.

[zorro]

On 4/6/2023 at 7:41 PM, Asthereal said:

 

It's quite spread out over the forum, but here's the main stuff:

-Gathering Storm ups the pace about twofold, which is a bit jarring at first.

-Sanderson missed the mark with Mat.

Everything else is actually surprisingly spot on, for the most part. Both Rand's and Egwene's voices work, and their arcs rock. I personally realy loved the Ituralde bits as well. That character has such a nice clear view on stuff, he's a pleasure to follow.

 

I knew the differences would be there, but after reading the first 50 or so pages I breathed a sigh of relief: Sanderson was on the right track for sure. And onwards from there the story just kept getting better. Gathering Storm is one of my faves, actually.

New member here, started the series 30+ years ago and just finished or the first time a couple weeks ago.

 

I wanted to make a specific point about the pace that Asthereal mentions quickened up with Sanderson.  Somewhere around Crossroads of Twilight, whenever I started a new book, I took a sheet of paper, skimmed the books, wrote the narrators for each chapter, and used that as my bookmark.  I found this useful because I knew when to expect a good breaking point.  I noticed in the Jordan-authored books, you would frequently get several chapters in a row from the same narrator, or alternating two (The Shadow Rising might be the main exception to this).  With Sanderson, you rarely got more than two chapters in a row with the same narrator.  He was constantly shifting things up.  I think that helped get that feel of a quicker pace.  (Not sure if I liked that, it was definitely good for the last book, but I tended to appreciate Jordan's focusing on one person for an extended period.)

 

(Also, I agree his missed the mark with Mat!)

[ForsakenPotato]

I read the books and watched the show in parallel. Both, in my opinion, had major flaws and also redeeming qualities, but I think because I was devouring them at the same time I had less of the "the show ruined everything" feelings compared to others here. To me, the joy of both are the delightful characters and the interesting world they inhabit.

 

Everyone else has already mentioned the longggg descriptions of people's outfits, the amount of discussion of the female characters' boobs, inconsistent pacing, and the spanking. I personally also found a lot of the dialogue unconvincing and cheesy (the show sadly has not remedied this), the foresaken incompetent and therefor not particularly scary until the last battle, and most of the romance portions felt forced, unrealistic, and at times completely absurd (don't get me started on the igloo scene).

 

That said, the good parts had to be really good for me to put up with 14 books of that in less than a year, and they were. I probably cried 5 times in the last one alone. I definitely haven't joined forums like this for any other series -- I haven't even been on reddit in years. So despite frequently not liking these books (and I do mean frequently)...I also think I love 'em.

[Asthereal]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:27 PM, zorro said:

New member here, started the series 30+ years ago and just finished or the first time a couple weeks ago.

 

I wanted to make a specific point about the pace that Asthereal mentions quickened up with Sanderson.  Somewhere around Crossroads of Twilight, whenever I started a new book, I took a sheet of paper, skimmed the books, wrote the narrators for each chapter, and used that as my bookmark.  I found this useful because I knew when to expect a good breaking point.  I noticed in the Jordan-authored books, you would frequently get several chapters in a row from the same narrator, or alternating two (The Shadow Rising might be the main exception to this).  With Sanderson, you rarely got more than two chapters in a row with the same narrator.  He was constantly shifting things up.  I think that helped get that feel of a quicker pace.  (Not sure if I liked that, it was definitely good for the last book, but I tended to appreciate Jordan's focusing on one person for an extended period.)

 

(Also, I agree his missed the mark with Mat!)

Sanderson indeed likes to jump around more in terms of character perspective. But he also doesn't do the page long descriptions of the buttons on a coat and things like that, which helps up the pace. And there's a certain character whose story he felt bogged the whole thing down, so he killed that character in the prologue of The Gathering Storm. Sanderson trimmed the fat in terms of both prose and story, and he was probably right to do so. He was hired to finish the thing, and he had a LOT of ground to cover. 😉

Edited April 18, 2023 by Asthereal

[Qstar]

I have to agree with 90% of the forum. The repetitive nature of the books is something to loathe. RJ tends to describe the fabric of a dress for what seems to be 1/3 of a page. Like do we need to know what fabric and how the hems are down....not really. 

 

One thing Id like to add is that if you are an audible listener you hardly notice the difference in writing styles between RJ and BS. This is because Michael Kramer (co-narrator) of the WoT series also narrates BJ cosmere series well know ln Mistborn series.

 

Since audible is a different medium I've found that I have less critics about the writing style because of the deliver of the content. Plus Michael Kramer is the best. Id suggest to try audible as well as the physical copies. This is coming from a book lover who gave it a try. 

 

Great post!

[RainHarlow]

So, I've read the whole thread, here. It's weird to say I both agree that RJ went overboard on descriptions AND that I loved it. Maybe it's the being a writer thing, and getting older and absorbing more information, technique, logical criticisms, etc. But when I was initially reading in my teens, I drank it all in like a boy's first taste of exotic spirits. In my earliest writings I emulated that. I recall an early group I was in, and writing this page-long description of a sophisticated mystical object, and multiple people critiquing were like 'what are you doing?! You can't do that!' 'Oh, sorry.' 😆

 

I still find myself wanting to add an extra paragraph and gritting my teeth, or one getting long and being like 'damn it! there's more to describe...' but sighing and wrapping it up/squeezing it. In my head I say 'keep the paint brush flowing, don't come to a complete stop.' Heh...

 

Other than that. I do recall getting a bit exasperated with the Men = Mars; Women = Venus aspect, even younger. Not its existence so much as the intensity of the focus. I think, though, he was reflecting the magnified impressions of his experiences from The Backwoods and isolated, rural pockets, superimposed with historical frameworks and references. In short, the absurdity is understood but presented as what he felt would exist in the setting he built up to. Flawed and fractured and far from 'modern, enlightened' viewpoints. His audacity to do this is forever admirable in a way.

 

I'm the sort that's read his harshest critics to understand the issues, but still loves his work. The journeys of those characters are eternally special to me and RJ made them so. It's up there with Frodo and Odysseus and Elric and the Skywalkers. Lilith Ayapo. Irremovable pillars of a poor, Southern boy's psyche and imagination.

[Gypsum]

3 hours ago, RainHarlow said:

Maybe it's the being a writer thing, and getting older and absorbing more information, technique, logical criticisms, etc.

 

As a writer, his overwrought descriptions and aforementioned repetitive language annoyed me far more than it did when I was a student. I mean, I like a big, fat, long descriptive paragraph as much as the next novelist - don't get me wrong - but there is a point where the 'delete' key is your friend. You have to think of the reader. When I was editing my second novel while reading Crossroads and Knife of Dreams, I realised how many habits I had unconsciously picked up from Jordan/WOT. Not always the good ones, either. 

[WheelofJuke]

It seemed that his lengthy descriptions got worse as the series went on. Is that just my imagination?

E.g., in TGH I'm digging every stitching and horse detail but by the time they introduce all the rebel AS in Salidar I want to scream when he mentions their clothes or horses. 😐

Then, I guess, to be thorough, I went back (during BS's books) to wishing I could get a couple of pages of embroidery and mare talk. :shrug:

 

[Gypsum]

1 hour ago, WheelofJuke said:

It seemed that his lengthy descriptions got worse as the series went on. Is that just my imagination?

E.g., in TGH I'm digging every stitching and horse detail but by the time they introduce all the rebel AS in Salidar I want to scream when he mentions their clothes or horses. 😐

Then, I guess, to be thorough, I went back (during BS's books) to wishing I could get a couple of pages of embroidery and mare talk. :shrug:

 

I agree. I think the first four books were much tighter when it came to moving the plot along, then he got punchy with describing every stitch of everyone's clothing, no matter how minor or inconsequential it was to anything.

 

I'd argue that the horse issue is different.  Comes back to repetitive language, not copious description. Trust me, I could write about five pages, in a small font, describing my horses, but I doubt anyone wants to read it. Jordan doesn't do that. But he does the thing where he writes, "Stepper, the dun stallion," or Pips as "a brown gelding with a blunt nose" (whatever that means....does he mean roman nosed??) almost every time you encounter the horse. We know who these horses are and what they look like. He doesn't need to repeat himself.

 

I bet those picket lines are fun with all the unsupervised geldings, stallions, and mares.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Descriptive loses it’s meaning when it becomes repetitive 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I still don’t know in what world peoples cheeks constantly change color so noticeably 😂

[RainHarlow]

10 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I still don’t know in what world peoples cheeks constantly change color so noticeably 😂

 

*reddens even more*

[Gypsum]

If Jordan knew the reality of working with horses, he would have far more to say about them than those paragraphs about embroidery. A bit of a fallacy with most fantasy writers, to be honest, who kind of handle them as though they are cars.

 

For example, this was my day......

 

I have two horses, a gelding and a mare, and they don't live in the same field because my barn separates horses by gender.

 

I go down the the boys' field to catch my dun gelding (he is!). There should be four horses in that field. However, I get to the gate to find three horses. Well, f*ck. I look around and see the fourth horse, grazing away in an empty, adjacent field. The little bugger had got through the fence. I text his owner to say he's escaped (not his first offense), then march off with his headcollar, catch him, lob him back into the field, though not without arguing with one who was trying to push his way through the gate. I wander towards my horse. In the meantime, one of the other owners appears and catches hers - the one who was trying to run me over at the gate. At that moment, Mr. Great Escape busts through the fence again. My gelding and the remaining gelding go nuts and run around like idiots. Me and the other owner look at each other, saying, well sh1t. We can't catch ours and leave one in the field by himself because he's not smart enough or small enough to follow Mr. Great Escape through the fence. He could panic and hurt himself. That means we have to catch everything. She hikes off to find Mr. Great Escape while I wait for my horse and his buddy to cool their jets so I can get the halters on.

 

Eventually, I am tacked up and on board the gelding, hacking along the road. The road goes past the mares' field. I have left my mare and one other out, because it's a nice evening, and they can graze instead of stand in their stables. I will get them when I come back. The girls, apparently, have a different view. They are running around like maniacs, going flat-out, jumping the ruined stone wall in their field. Oh, f*ck, I think. I should have brought them in. Now I am here and not there. Someone is going to cause some serious vet bills. The whole time we are riding past the field, these two mares are tearing about like it's the bloody Grand National, and I am bricking it. We lose sight as we head into our country park, then my gelding, who's a sensitive wee guy, gets spooky as hell, jumping at bikes and dogs and things he doesn't normally bother with, because he thinks I'm stressed about something actually dangerous, not his sister and her friend doing some kamikaze galloping and future vet bills.

 

I text the owner of Mr. Great Escape, who owes me, and ask her to catch the mares if she gets to the yard before we return from our hack. Upon our return, I find her leading the two mares out of their field, all legs intact (though friend had lost a shoe...mine is barefoot). She said the two idiots were calmly grazing by the time she got there. Of course they were.

 

And it's only Wednesday......

[RainHarlow]

Ha! Those horses think they're the heroes of the story! Thank you for posting that, Gypsum, though sorry about the rough day. 😅

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

6 hours ago, Gypsum said:

If Jordan knew the reality of working with horses, he would have far more to say about them than those paragraphs about embroidery. A bit of a fallacy with most fantasy writers, to be honest, who kind of handle them as though they are cars.

 

For example, this was my day......

 

I have two horses, a gelding and a mare, and they don't live in the same field because my barn separates horses by gender.

 

I go down the the boys' field to catch my dun gelding (he is!). There should be four horses in that field. However, I get to the gate to find three horses. Well, f*ck. I look around and see the fourth horse, grazing away in an empty, adjacent field. The little bugger had got through the fence. I text his owner to say he's escaped (not his first offense), then march off with his headcollar, catch him, lob him back into the field, though not without arguing with one who was trying to push his way through the gate. I wander towards my horse. In the meantime, one of the other owners appears and catches hers - the one who was trying to run me over at the gate. At that moment, Mr. Great Escape busts through the fence again. My gelding and the remaining gelding go nuts and run around like idiots. Me and the other owner look at each other, saying, well sh1t. We can't catch ours and leave one in the field by himself because he's not smart enough or small enough to follow Mr. Great Escape through the fence. He could panic and hurt himself. That means we have to catch everything. She hikes off to find Mr. Great Escape while I wait for my horse and his buddy to cool their jets so I can get the halters on.

 

Eventually, I am tacked up and on board the gelding, hacking along the road. The road goes past the mares' field. I have left my mare and one other out, because it's a nice evening, and they can graze instead of stand in their stables. I will get them when I come back. The girls, apparently, have a different view. They are running around like maniacs, going flat-out, jumping the ruined stone wall in their field. Oh, f*ck, I think. I should have brought them in. Now I am here and not there. Someone is going to cause some serious vet bills. The whole time we are riding past the field, these two mares are tearing about like it's the bloody Grand National, and I am bricking it. We lose sight as we head into our country park, then my gelding, who's a sensitive wee guy, gets spooky as hell, jumping at bikes and dogs and things he doesn't normally bother with, because he thinks I'm stressed about something actually dangerous, not his sister and her friend doing some kamikaze galloping and future vet bills.

 

I text the owner of Mr. Great Escape, who owes me, and ask her to catch the mares if she gets to the yard before we return from our hack. Upon our return, I find her leading the two mares out of their field, all legs intact (though friend had lost a shoe...mine is barefoot). She said the two idiots were calmly grazing by the time she got there. Of course they were.

 

And it's only Wednesday......

I don’t own horses, although I’ve always since I was little been drawn to them and dreamed of one day being able to, and I go on trail rides whenever I can. I love animals and took a large animal nursing course and worked in the veterinary field for 15 years with small animals. All that to say, I’m no stranger to animals and nowhere near an expert with horses…but your post describing a portion of a day in your life was so entertaining and enjoyable to read, (even though I couldn’t personally relate as a horse owner), and I thank you for sharing! It probably wasn’t so fun in the moment, but you did an excellent job in the retelling.