Your honest first opinions of the early series (books 1-3).

[Stedding Tofu]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The biggest issue for me is that these relationship changes happen over about 18 months. I sometimes wish the story had a much longer time scale to really make sense of the behavior which doesn’t come across as friends drifting apart, but just teenagers being constantly bratty. 

 

Agreed but then the whole timeline of the story, with Rand going from barely out of adolescence shepherd to ruling a coalition of nations, leading multiple campaigns and saving the world, is very short so things happen at breakneck speed: the Aiel, the Seanchan, The Forsaken, the Asha'man, Tarmon Gai'don. 

 

Boom, it's all over in 2 years so our characters have rapid development and accelerated arcs from humble beginnings to international statehood (it's weird saying that given how slow paced some of the catch-ups chapters and plot arcs are - Mat in Ebou Dar, Perrin in Ghealdan, Egwene leading The Salidar Aes Sedai to Tar Valon) but they all grow up, get married and become world leaders in an eyeblink.  So their growth apart is accelerated as well for all the teenage bickering, glaring, sniffing and braid pulling that accompanies it.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Stedding Tofu
typo

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 2/9/2023 at 11:17 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

The biggest issue for me is that these relationship changes happen over about 18 months. I sometimes wish the story had a much longer time scale to really make sense of the behavior which doesn’t come across as friends drifting apart, but just teenagers being constantly bratty. 

What really gets my attention though is that despite the many things that irritate even the most devout fans, something about WOT has had deep meaning and impact on those of us who are ride or die WOT fans in some extremely profound ways 

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

What really gets my attention though is that despite the many things that irritate even the most devout fans, something about WOT has had deep meaning and impact on those of us who are ride or die WOT fans in some extremely profound ways 

Oh I know there is a reason I go back and re read even though some of the writing really really grates at times. I will say the more I read it, and the more time goes by, the more it slips down my must read list for other people. The writing style hasn't aged well as I have aged and those little things I used to call quirks grate slightly more with each re read. I am fully accepting I may reach the point where I may just put the series aside and decide to never reread it again. 

[Samt]

I think an important key to enjoying the books is realizing that you aren't supposed to necessarily like all of the main characters at the beginning.  By the end, they all grow into someone very likable.  And after 14 books, that growth can be very satisfying.  

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The writing style hasn't aged well as I have aged and those little things I used to call quirks grate slightly more with each re read. I am fully accepting I may reach the point where I may just put the series aside and decide to never reread it again. 

Similarly I find it hard subjectively and emotionally to separate art from the times so certain things end up grating on me.  The fact that Gender is so binary locked and Halima is treated as a weird automatically off thing pushes a bit on my sensibilities each time I read.  

Objectively I understand and don't mind, I'd never critique or complain, but subjectively I do think I'll hit the same point your worried about.  Specially as Modesitt and Sanderson continue to write the type of fantasy I like and there continues to be more and more of it.  (Ashamed to admit I haven't read the last Mistborn or Modesitt's new Isolate series yet, they're just sitting on my shelf until I have time.)

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Similarly I find it hard subjectively and emotionally to separate art from the times so certain things end up grating on me.  The fact that Gender is so binary locked and Halima is treated as a weird automatically off thing pushes a bit on my sensibilities each time I read.  

Objectively I understand and don't mind, I'd never critique or complain, but subjectively I do think I'll hit the same point your worried about.  Specially as Modesitt and Sanderson continue to write the type of fantasy I like and there continues to be more and more of it.  (Ashamed to admit I haven't read the last Mistborn or Modesitt's new Isolate series yet, they're just sitting on my shelf until I have time.)

Until the last 10 years (or maybe 5) gender was locked into binary.  XX and XY is all we knew - or at least all I knew.  Whether because of politics, religion, science or whatever - realities beyond the binary were not widely known.  That has now changed.  Hard to judge previous works based on today's knowledge, be it WoT, Beowulf, Canterbury Tales, or 50 Shades of Grey.  Times change along with what we 'know'.  In 5 more years we will know something different from today.

[KakitaOCU]

As said, I don't hold any judgements or dismissiveness of the work objectively.  That doesn't mean I don't end up subjectively being unhappy with something.

I will 100% always argue separating the art from the artist.  I enjoyed Sword of Truth, but once Goodkind started being scummy to his fanbase I started enjoying it less and now I won't even re-read them, despite them being on the shelf next to Recluce and Wheel of Time growing up.

[Scarloc99]

10 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Until the last 10 years (or maybe 5) gender was locked into binary.  XX and XY is all we knew - or at least all I knew.  Whether because of politics, religion, science or whatever - realities beyond the binary were not widely known.  That has now changed.  Hard to judge previous works based on today's knowledge, be it WoT, Beowulf, Canterbury Tales, or 50 Shades of Grey.  Times change along with what we 'know'.  In 5 more years we will know something different from today.

Not wanting to wander into the realms of gender, in reality trans people are known to have existed for hundreds of years. And studies where done as long ago as the late 90’s early 2000’s that showed that the idea of male or female genetically in nature is far more fluid, even in humans, chemically and in terms of DNA it is more a sliding scale and very few people are at either end. 
 

It has become more public recently because certain sections of society see it as an easy target to get people up in arms about and then naturally others then come out in defense. 
 

And let’s leave it there and not get into the debate fully. 

[Samt]

17 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Not wanting to wander into the realms of gender, in reality trans people are known to have existed for hundreds of years. And studies where done as long ago as the late 90’s early 2000’s that showed that the idea of male or female genetically in nature is far more fluid, even in humans, chemically and in terms of DNA it is more a sliding scale and very few people are at either end. 
 

It has become more public recently because certain sections of society see it as an easy target to get people up in arms about and then naturally others then come out in defense. 
 

And let’s leave it there and not get into the debate fully. 

If you want the door shut, don’t open it and pretend only you are allowed to walk through it.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Samt

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Not wanting to wander into the realms of gender, in reality trans people are known to have existed for hundreds of years. And studies where done as long ago as the late 90’s early 2000’s that showed that the idea of male or female genetically in nature is far more fluid, even in humans, chemically and in terms of DNA it is more a sliding scale and very few people are at either end. 
 

It has become more public recently because certain sections of society see it as an easy target to get people up in arms about and then naturally others then come out in defense. 
 

And let’s leave it there and not get into the debate fully. 

Kind of bogus to come in, say your piece, and then say no one can respond...

[DojoToad]

38 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

As said, I don't hold any judgements or dismissiveness of the work objectively.  That doesn't mean I don't end up subjectively being unhappy with something.

I will 100% always argue separating the art from the artist.  I enjoyed Sword of Truth, but once Goodkind started being scummy to his fanbase I started enjoying it less and now I won't even re-read them, despite them being on the shelf next to Recluce and Wheel of Time growing up.

I lost interest in Sword of Truth after the 2nd book.

[KakitaOCU]

Let's not jump onto that debate.  For what it's worth I don't think it's much of a secret that I'm transgender.  I also know Dojo and I have talked about it in the past and I haven't found her to be rude, dismissive or attacking over the matter.

To be clear, yes, transgender and nonbinary people have been around forever, not just hundreds but thousands of years.  Summeria and Akkadia have references dating 4500 years.

In the same note, while perhaps a better phrasing would have been "Common belief is that gender was locked in a binary until recently" I don't believe Dojo was trying to be dismissive or offensive.  Jordan was very progressive and I'd imagine very pro women and equality, he simply had a very different and as we know now, outdated view of things.  Mistakes and genuine lack of knowledge aren't something we judge on, I hope.

Dojo, if you ever care it gets better after book 2,  Book 1 and 2 basically clone other works (Including Wheel).  Book 3+ goes a different route.

BUT, right around book 5/6 Goodkind discovered Ayn Rand, went overboard with it and started shifting the series.  He also started dismissing fantasy as a genre and fantasy fans, telling off people who asked if he'd bring back dragons and the like and saying he didn't write fantasy.

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

BUT, right around book 5/6 Goodkind discovered Ayn Rand, went overboard with it and started shifting the series.  He also started dismissing fantasy as a genre and fantasy fans, telling off people who asked if he'd bring back dragons and the like and saying he didn't write fantasy.

There's also the comments he made about RJ while he was undergoing treatment.

 

There's a reason I wasn't sad when Goodkind died. 

[CaddySedai]

*steers this ship back to opinions of Books 1-3*

[Stedding Tofu]

23 hours ago, Samt said:

I think an important key to enjoying the books is realizing that you aren't supposed to necessarily like all of the main characters at the beginning.  By the end, they all grow into someone very likable.  And after 14 books, that growth can be very satisfying.  

 

All of them? 😮

 

They certainly mature somewhat but they are still very young in adult terms, only around 19-21 and there is plenty of rounding of rough edges tom be achieved and emotional maturity to be gained - Mat in particular, but Nynaeve also, and Perrin and Faile need to move beyond the obsessive teen romance phase.

 

Spot the middle aged commentator 😄

[KakitaOCU]

Honestly, I think he deliberately wrote characters at different levels of maturity.  I know my appreciation and favorites have changed over the years as I went from a 15 year old reading the first 5 books to the occasional re-read now at 42.

In the early days it was Rand's power fantasy and Mat's cleverness and defiance that made me the most amused.  

Now for the main trio I like Perrin the most and my favorite characters are probably Moraine and Cadsuane with Verrin taking the top spot.

[DojoToad]

Think I mentioned before that I read the books numerous times in a vacuum.  No DM, no YouTube, no show.  I'll be interested to see how (or if) my favorites have changed since my last read.

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

All of them? 😮

 

They certainly mature somewhat but they are still very young in adult terms, only around 19-21 and there is plenty of rounding of rough edges tom be achieved and emotional maturity to be gained - Mat in particular, but Nynaeve also, and Perrin and Faile need to move beyond the obsessive teen romance phase.

 

Spot the middle aged commentator 😄

Yes, all of them.  I'm not arguing that they don't have room for growth, but only that they aren't frustrating.  

I know the opinion is not uncontroversial, but I liked Perrin the whole way through and once Faile got past her jealousy I thought she was great as well (their story did drag through the slog, but that wasn't a character issue, imo).  Not sure what there is to dislike about Nynaeve once she understands her block. gets beyond her hypocrisy, and works things out with Lan.  Mat you can definitely say has some maturity issues, but I still think he is very likable.  I also think that Mat's inner dialogue is actually fairly sarcastic.  

 

And I'm 15 years happily married in my late 30s with 3 kids.  So it's not really a middle aged thing.    Maybe I never moved beyond the obsessive teen romance phase, but it hasn't been a problem yet.  

[KakitaOCU]

I think the main Teen Romance issue is Perrin and Faile honestly.

Their relationship is not super healthy and will break Perrin or end unless Faile can do some major shifts.  This idea that he needs to just psychically know exactly when to teeter between meek and dominant, the idea that she can't be her full strength unless he is stronger than that, and the fact that she often holds things against him he can't know he did or didn't even have anything to do with.

Let's say if I acted that way my spouse would not be happy with me and I wouldn't blame them.

[Samt]

25 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I think the main Teen Romance issue is Perrin and Faile honestly.

Their relationship is not super healthy and will break Perrin or end unless Faile can do some major shifts.  This idea that he needs to just psychically know exactly when to teeter between meek and dominant, the idea that she can't be her full strength unless he is stronger than that, and the fact that she often holds things against him he can't know he did or didn't even have anything to do with.

Let's say if I acted that way my spouse would not be happy with me and I wouldn't blame them.

My point is that actually this frustrating stuff happens early on and stops happening by the end of the series.  Faile obviously has some ridiculous expectations to start off, but she works past them.  That doesn't mean that the characters have no more growing to do, but they overcome most of their shortcomings by the end of the series.  

In regards to the original topic of books 1-3, my point is that we shouldn't consider the behavior of the main characters in the early books as intended to be healthy, good, or satisfying.  The early books create a baseline from which the characters are able to grow.  If you judge Faile based on what she does in TDR and much of the tSR, she does some unhealthy stuff.  But I don't think that is what she is doing in AMoL.  

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

My point is that actually this frustrating stuff happens early on and stops happening by the end of the series.  Faile obviously has some ridiculous expectations to start off, but she works past them.  That doesn't mean that the characters have no more growing to do, but they overcome most of their shortcomings by the end of the series.  

In regards to the original topic of books 1-3, my point is that we shouldn't consider the behavior of the main characters in the early books as intended to be healthy, good, or satisfying.  The early books create a baseline from which the characters are able to grow.  If you judge Faile based on what she does in TDR and much of the tSR, she does some unhealthy stuff.  But I don't think that is what she is doing in AMoL.  

I think the only reason she isn’t doing it is the last battle. There is no real character growth there on her part, and Perrins growth is largely around him accepting the wolf side and replacing axe with hammer, 

 

For that matter I would argue all 3 boys still have lots of growth to do. Mat probably has the biggest shift but that is in part because he is no longer Mat, he is Mat with thousands of other men’s memories and lessons. Rand’s growth is focused on the power and his accepting his place in prophecy, I would imagine the next few years post last battle will be eye opening for him personally as will him trying to negotiate his poly relationship situation. 
 

In terms of modern story telling most of the main characters have a journey with a beginning middle and end, but I would not say we see them grow tremendously deeply as human beings. You can’t expect that of characters over 2 years who are focused on winning a war. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[Samt]

36 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I think the only reason she isn’t doing it is the last battle. There is no real character growth there on her part, and Perrins growth is largely around him accepting the wolf side and replacing axe with hammer, 

 

For that matter I would argue all 3 boys still have lots of growth to do. Mat probably has the biggest shift but that is in part because he is no longer Mat, he is Mat with thousands of other men’s memories and lessons. Rand’s growth is focused on the power and his accepting his place in prophecy, I would imagine the next few years post last battle will be eye opening for him personally as will him trying to negotiate his poly relationship situation. 
 

In terms of modern story telling most of the main characters have a journey with a beginning middle and end, but I would not say we see them grow tremendously deeply as human beings. You can’t expect that of characters over 2 years who are focused on winning a war. 

The crux of the hero's journey is that it changes you and you don't come back the same person.  People can change a lot in two years, particularly in an epic struggle for survival.  I think there are formative moments that happen in an instant. 

 

Of course, there is no proof that all of the characters won't revert to being awful after the last battle (except for Egwene, of course).  But I guess it comes down to how much you believe in the ability of people to change fundamentally.  I chose to believe that the fact that they are acting better is evidence that they have become better.  

[Stedding Tofu]

19 hours ago, Samt said:

I liked Perrin the whole way through and once Faile got past her jealousy I thought she was great as well

 

Did she?  Perrin never looked at Berelain twice and she made Perrin's life hell because Berelain was trying to make her uncomfortable, not because Perrin did anything.  The Berelain issue was "fixed" but Min and Loial's judgments on Faile's character remain true for me.  Now she's Queen of Saldaea she's going to be even more difficult to live with.

 

19 hours ago, Samt said:

Not sure what there is to dislike about Nynaeve once she understands her block. gets beyond her hypocrisy, and works things out with Lan.

 

Have a look at how she interacts with the other Aes Sedai in Caemlyn once her status as a real Aes Sedai is beyond question.  Aes Sedai follow a hierarchy of power and she's top dog and is as domineering as ever. 

 

I'm genuinely well-disposed towards Nynaeve but I would not want to spend time around her because she has a temper and an expectation that she would give orders and they would be obeyed.  Ditto Faile.

 

19 hours ago, Samt said:

Mat you can definitely say has some maturity issues, but I still think he is very likable.  I also think that Mat's inner dialogue is actually fairly sarcastic.

 

Undoubtedly but owning a damane while your sister trains to be Aes Sedai is about as thoughtless as it can get.  And marrying the Seanchan Empress when she sees everyone as traitors owing her obedience and has already conquered a third of Randland, only being restrained by a precarious truce, kind of avoids looking at the big picture.  But, hey, his child will be the next Seanchan Empress.  I shouldn't blame him for the pickle RJ put him in as that is a central part of his character and his story arc but I do find it absurd that he doesn't think about any of this.

 

19 hours ago, Samt said:

And I'm 15 years happily married in my late 30s with 3 kids.  So it's not really a middle aged thing.    Maybe I never moved beyond the obsessive teen romance phase, but it hasn't been a problem yet.  

 

Well, I'm happy for you and your family 🙂 but if you have three kids I doubt we're talking about the same thing.  I'm talking about when Perrin cuts the hand of the Shaido captive in order to force him to say where Faile is and thinks (rather tediously and repetitively) "only Faile matters", "the world could burn as long as Faile was safe". 

 

I liked Perrin but I didn't like the Perrin-Faile relationship.  Love doesn't always make you happy and the risk throughout was that Perrin and Faile made each other miserable more often than happy.

 

But of course we'll all view characters differently.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I'm genuinely well-disposed towards Nynaeve but I would not want to spend time around her because she has a temper and an expectation that she would give orders and they would be obeyed.  Ditto Faile.

One, I think you're missing a key point, because Nynaeve admits the system is flawed and defers to a Sister so weak she barely made the Shawl.  There's a difference between using what you have and thinking it's the right way to leave things.

But beyond all that, what, exactly, is the issue with someone giving orders and expecting to be obeyed?  If the orders are bad, question, but realistically, these are intelligent, highly trained and competent people.

 

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Undoubtedly but owning a damane while your sister trains to be Aes Sedai is about as thoughtless as it can get.

Except he doesn't actively go purchase a damane, he captures an enemy channeler in the middle the last battle.  We have no idea how he'll react to this or what steps he'll take next and we KNOW the idea is on his mind because he encourages the Sul'Dam that were with him to learn to channel and help him convince Tuon to change things.    

 

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

And marrying the Seanchan Empress when she sees everyone as traitors owing her obedience and has already conquered a third of Randland, only being restrained by a precarious truce, kind of avoids looking at the big picture.

Two aspects.  One, love is funny and you can't always control who you love.  Two, there is a very strong argument to make about changing things from the inside.  We know attacking the Seanchan from the outside is bloody, dangerous and might fail.  But Mat slowly influencing Tuon, applying his own political leverage and ability to start moving the needle?  These are things that come with maturity.  It's easy to stand and say "Be defiant no matter what."  It's a harder thing in reality and practice.  A young person would dash themselves on the rocks of the Seanchan empire trying to force the issue.  A smarter person realizes if they're in control they can effect change.
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I'm talking about when Perrin cuts the hand of the Shaido captive in order to force him to say where Faile is and thinks (rather tediously and repetitively) "only Faile matters", "the world could burn as long as Faile was safe". 

Again, human flaws and not uncommon at that.  I pride myself on being analytical and making sound judgements and if you hurt my wife there would be significant issues and while I keep calm in bad situations my focus becomes very much zeroed in on the issue of my family hurting.

It's not an immature young person thing, it's a vulnerability and humans are flawed thing.
 

[Samt]

2 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Did she?  Perrin never looked at Berelain twice and she made Perrin's life hell because Berelain was trying to make her uncomfortable, not because Perrin did anything.  The Berelain issue was "fixed" but Min and Loial's judgments on Faile's character remain true for me.  Now she's Queen of Saldaea she's going to be even more difficult to live with.

 

 

Have a look at how she interacts with the other Aes Sedai in Caemlyn once her status as a real Aes Sedai is beyond question.  Aes Sedai follow a hierarchy of power and she's top dog and is as domineering as ever. 

 

I'm genuinely well-disposed towards Nynaeve but I would not want to spend time around her because she has a temper and an expectation that she would give orders and they would be obeyed.  Ditto Faile.

 

 

Undoubtedly but owning a damane while your sister trains to be Aes Sedai is about as thoughtless as it can get.  And marrying the Seanchan Empress when she sees everyone as traitors owing her obedience and has already conquered a third of Randland, only being restrained by a precarious truce, kind of avoids looking at the big picture.  But, hey, his child will be the next Seanchan Empress.  I shouldn't blame him for the pickle RJ put him in as that is a central part of his character and his story arc but I do find it absurd that he doesn't think about any of this.

 

 

Well, I'm happy for you and your family 🙂 but if you have three kids I doubt we're talking about the same thing.  I'm talking about when Perrin cuts the hand of the Shaido captive in order to force him to say where Faile is and thinks (rather tediously and repetitively) "only Faile matters", "the world could burn as long as Faile was safe". 

 

I liked Perrin but I didn't like the Perrin-Faile relationship.  Love doesn't always make you happy and the risk throughout was that Perrin and Faile made each other miserable more often than happy.

 

But of course we'll all view characters differently.

I actually didn't have a problem with Perrin chopping the hand off.  It showed his intelligence at understanding their culture.  They didn't mind the pain.  It was the prospect of being sent back as beggars that got to them.  He's horrified at what he has done, but also accepts that he will do what he has to do.  

 

In regards to only Faile matters, that is actually something that Perrin explicitly grows past.  He realizes that winning the last battle is more important and lets Faile guard the horn.  Admittedly, this ends up being more dangerous than Perrin anticipated, but he still accepted that protecting Faile wasn't the most important thing.  You can argue that he never gets over his "obsession," since it's hard to say what would have happened to Perrin's sanity if Faile had died, but that's not entirely abnormal.  Losing a spouse or other close family member is devastating and normal people suffer extreme emotional damage when that happens.