Dark One Never Wanted to Win

[tsunamic84]

So I haven't seen anybody theorize this so I was curious what others though. I have come to believe that that Dark One never wanted to win in the first place. I feel like many of the decisions made were always suboptimal towards that purpose. Like if the whole series was a chess game, the Dark One purposefully doesn't take the king, or gives up his own pawns telling them to take the knights but never the king. He always ACTS like he wants to win and of course comes insanely close to it. But if other turning of the wheels are so similar, the Dark One should be wise and experienced enough to counter anything ignorant humans can come up with. Or even the main-character luck Rand has. So many chances for a slightly better decision to tip the scales and have the Dark One win. But I suspect he never wanted to win, only wants to play because he is bored. I could list specific examples but I'm sure we are all aptly educated at this point to discuss.

 

I suppose one thing to point out is when Rand experienced all of those other worlds when using the portal stone, was it in The Great Hunt? Rand lost many many times. If those were real, and it has been said in the series that if the Dark One wins in one world, he wins in all, wouldn't it make sense that with the possibility of his winning, that he actually won many times? But gave the win up just to continue the game for next time?

 

Thoughts?

Edited November 6, 2022 by tsunamic84
"Serious" should have been "series"

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

I’m pretty sure either RJ or BS said that the Dark One can never win (because the Wheel has been turning infinitely, he’ll never be able to win because he never could in the past/future), but I love this idea! Really adds a lot of interesting depth to the DO (who I think could’ve used a lot more fleshing out as an entity) and the idea of the cycle. It’s entertaining to think of him wanting to play the game but not win, especially with the parallel of Moridin and Sha’rah (that old board game). 
 

So while I think it’s disproven by the canon, there could be a fun loophole of the DO hasn’t realized he can’t win and for all intensive purposes, your theory would be right. He’d play the game and purposely lose, without ever realizing the outcome can’t be different. 
 

Thanks for the theory, I really like the perspective! 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

It is clear from his confrontation with Rand that the Dark One does not want to win in the sense of winning the last battle and installing a Nae'Bliss as ruler of the world for a dark age.  He wants to win in the sense of putting the dragon in a position where he chooses to destroy the wheel entirely rather than continuing to accept the torments that the Dark One inflicts.

[tsunamic84]

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

It is clear from his confrontation with Rand that the Dark One does not want to win in the sense of winning the last battle and installing a Nae'Bliss as ruler of the world for a dark age.  He wants to win in the sense of putting the dragon in a position where he chooses to destroy the wheel entirely rather than continuing to accept the torments that the Dark One inflicts.

 

I agree that it is clear he doesn't want to install a ruler. And I was afraid it was simply stated that Jordan or Sanderson simply stated this theory wasn't true. But for the sake of discussion, how was it clear he certainly wanted to win and destroy everything? I feel the Dark One made a lot of goofs. Killing Rand as quickly as possible basically guarantees he will be set free. Then presumably he can do whatever he wants, even bring Rand back since he is the Lord of the Grave, yes? Destroying the seals as soon as he can definitely guarantees that. I believe Taim had the seals before Rand gave them to Egwene right? So what could Rand have done in response to him being free? I suppose we do not know, but I'd think it would be better than what happened. Better as in for the Dark One.

 

It seems as though you're implying the method he wants to use to win is by using Rand? I'll note I do not know much of what was said by Sanderson and Jordan, so all this is just coming from the books. But if that is the case, Rand come dangerously close to dying by most of the Forsaken. Yes, some of those were dealt with, but there was that order to kill Rand during the Cleansing yes? By killing Rand, that method is no longer valid. Maybe he wanted to cut his losses and keep Saidin tainted to better his chances for next time. But I'm not confident that is the case.

[tsunamic84]

7 hours ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

I’m pretty sure either RJ or BS said that the Dark One can never win (because the Wheel has been turning infinitely, he’ll never be able to win because he never could in the past/future), but I love this idea! Really adds a lot of interesting depth to the DO (who I think could’ve used a lot more fleshing out as an entity) and the idea of the cycle. It’s entertaining to think of him wanting to play the game but not win, especially with the parallel of Moridin and Sha’rah (that old board game). 
 

So while I think it’s disproven by the canon, there could be a fun loophole of the DO hasn’t realized he can’t win and for all intensive purposes, your theory would be right. He’d play the game and purposely lose, without ever realizing the outcome can’t be different. 
 

Thanks for the theory, I really like the perspective! 

 

And thanks for that! I really thought it was cool. The more I reread the series, the more I believe this. I feel out of all the media I have consumed (lol), this one by far is the most stable. By that I mean finding plot holes and things that are just silly are less frequent for me than say the Marvel movies for example. I never get tired of it. And any of the silly stuff is explained as a mechanic like plot armor (Ta'veren), the heros knowing their path without any experience at all (again, the pattern and the knowledge of past lives, plus the Snakes and Foxes for their assistance and answers). And this theory. Thanks for the reply!

[DojoToad]

You all are talking way over my head. This definitely gives me something else to consider on the next read through…

[KakitaOCU]

The thing is, to look at this and say the Dark One never learns, adapts or works to win implies that it sees these turnings as multiple attempts.

I really don't think it does.  It's outside of Time, it's existing in a 5D world looking at a 4D object.  Much like we are 4D and can't really comprehend time save it moving in one direction, I think the DO sees time as a dimension that same as width, lengths and depth.

So from the DO's perspective, picture looking at a tire spinning very slowly.  You reach out and puncture it in one place, drag a gash in it, get push back and finally shoved away from it.   From your perspective the tire doesn't come around and you poke again, that's just all there is, you can see the slash from your single attempt and that's that.  Meanwhile an insect sitting stationary inside the tire would would see the gash, have offspring, die as the gash disappears, the offspring have offspring, etc, etc, then the insect's progeny would see the gash come around again and perceive it as a new thing..

I think the DO made a single attempt, was smacked down and that was it, from its perspective.

[tsunamic84]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The thing is, to look at this and say the Dark One never learns, adapts or works to win implies that it sees these turnings as multiple attempts.

I really don't think it does.  It's outside of Time, it's existing in a 5D world looking at a 4D object.  Much like we are 4D and can't really comprehend time save it moving in one direction, I think the DO sees time as a dimension that same as width, lengths and depth.

So from the DO's perspective, picture looking at a tire spinning very slowly.  You reach out and puncture it in one place, drag a gash in it, get push back and finally shoved away from it.   From your perspective the tire doesn't come around and you poke again, that's just all there is, you can see the slash from your single attempt and that's that.  Meanwhile an insect sitting stationary inside the tire would would see the gash, have offspring, die as the gash disappears, the offspring have offspring, etc, etc, then the insect's progeny would see the gash come around again and perceive it as a new thing..

I think the DO made a single attempt, was smacked down and that was it, from its perspective.

 

I think this might be my favorite thing I've heard about this series. The only reason I might not agree is that it is implied that while time is cyclical in the series, that doesn't mean the same characters and events. If that is the case, it would make sense to say it is not a single gash. It is not a single attempt. If it was, it would be exactly the same every time, right? And it isn't.

 

But maybe that isn't quite right. Maybe it could be more accurate to say the Dark One fights EVERY SINGLE Tarmon Gaidon all at once? And gashes the tire an infinite number of times at once. Each time representing each turning of the wheel.

 

But then how are there different outcome at the end as Rand spins the pattern? Are all possibilities real and occur in different worlds? As discussed when they talk about the portal stones? And if so, that would imply that at the beginning of the universe (or all of them?) when all the different patterns were spun, was it determined the Dark One failed his infinite battles from the get-go because if he won any of them ever, and he is outside time, then he could affect any time period he wanted (or any instance of the turning of the wheel). Maybe this is why Jordan or Sanderson (whoever it was) said the Dark One CANNOT win, since he already failed every time. But this doesn't imply he didn't lose on purpose. But it also might make it confusing to say he lost on purpose because he was bored, since they all happened at once?

 

Trying to understand the perspective of a being outside of time is difficult. I love this topic more and more though. You guys are great.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, tsunamic84 said:

I think this might be my favorite thing I've heard about this series. The only reason I might not agree is that it is implied that while time is cyclical in the series, that doesn't mean the same characters and events. If that is the case, it would make sense to say it is not a single gash. It is not a single attempt. If it was, it would be exactly the same every time, right? And it isn't.

 

But maybe that isn't quite right. Maybe it could be more accurate to say the Dark One fights EVERY SINGLE Tarmon Gaidon all at once? And gashes the tire an infinite number of times at once. Each time representing each turning of the wheel.

That's essentially what I was saying.  From the perspective of the insect inside the tire, the gash is new each time.  From the perspective outside, it happened once.  

So from our perspective as mortals ON the world, it happens every spin (Bore, Patch, Sealing) and repeats, but from the Perspective of the DO they only tried once.  

It's not a perfect match but think of Dormamu in the end of Dr. Strange.  The cast and director have mentioned that we saw only a sliver of Strange's deaths and confrontations.  Enough time passed for Strange to essentially let him move from talented novice to the level of competence he shows in Infinity War forward.  During all that time, Strange perceived multiple deaths, multiple confrontations, tried multiple different tactics to endure.  Dormamu perceived an upstart mortal showed up and was killed.  

It took millions if not billions of spins before Dormamu finally started to sort of sus out something was wrong.  Maybe the DO would be the same (an idea for a story) but how many turnings have their been?  And for the DO even if it's repeating without their ability to perceive the repeat, there's such a gap in time between each one.  Dormamu figuring it out after millions+ times back to back with no stop.  the DO has 5 ages between each attempt.

 

6 minutes ago, tsunamic84 said:

But then how are there different outcome at the end as Rand spins the pattern? Are all possibilities real and occur in different worlds? As discussed when they talk about the portal stones? And if so, that would imply that at the beginning of the universe (or all of them?) when all the different patterns were spun, was it determined the Dark One failed his infinite battles from the get-go because if he won any of them ever, and he is outside time, then he could affect any time period he wanted (or any instance of the turning of the wheel). Maybe this is why Jordan or Sanderson (whoever it was) said the Dark One CANNOT win, since he already failed every time. But this doesn't imply he didn't lose on purpose. But it also might make it confusing to say he lost on purpose because he was bored, since they all happened at once?

I think this walks into Multiverse theory and it's own fun.  But aside from that, Independently I think there's no way for Rand to "win" permanently.  I think that's what Fain/Mashadar/whatever represents.  It's always described as an evil different from, separate from the DO.  I think if Rand had given into hubris, killed the DO and ended that threat Fain would have slipped into the void left and slowly become essentially a new DO.  We already saw in the last few books how utterly alien their thinking was becoming, as well as an obsession with the Dragon.  It's a pet theory only obviously, but I think the Fain thing is a failsafe built into the system.  Rand made the "right" choice so Fain had no purpose and the pattern shoved Mat in to deal with the now unneeded factor.  

A good comparison would be the Matrix IMO.  Each iteration of "The One" involved a reset of the system to status quo and things continuing.  And let's be fair, while there's a lot of bad stuff in the Matrix, for the VAST majority  it's just life without issue.  Once Neo breaks the pattern a new evil starts spiraling out of control that is an enemy to both Neo and the Opposition.

[tsunamic84]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

That's essentially what I was saying.  From the perspective of the insect inside the tire, the gash is new each time.  From the perspective outside, it happened once.  

So from our perspective as mortals ON the world, it happens every spin (Bore, Patch, Sealing) and repeats, but from the Perspective of the DO they only tried once.  

It's not a perfect match but think of Dormamu in the end of Dr. Strange.  The cast and director have mentioned that we saw only a sliver of Strange's deaths and confrontations.  Enough time passed for Strange to essentially let him move from talented novice to the level of competence he shows in Infinity War forward.  During all that time, Strange perceived multiple deaths, multiple confrontations, tried multiple different tactics to endure.  Dormamu perceived an upstart mortal showed up and was killed.  

It took millions if not billions of spins before Dormamu finally started to sort of sus out something was wrong.  Maybe the DO would be the same (an idea for a story) but how many turnings have their been?  And for the DO even if it's repeating without their ability to perceive the repeat, there's such a gap in time between each one.  Dormamu figuring it out after millions+ times back to back with no stop.  the DO has 5 ages between each attempt.

 

I think this walks into Multiverse theory and it's own fun.  But aside from that, Independently I think there's no way for Rand to "win" permanently.  I think that's what Fain/Mashadar/whatever represents.  It's always described as an evil different from, separate from the DO.  I think if Rand had given into hubris, killed the DO and ended that threat Fain would have slipped into the void left and slowly become essentially a new DO.  We already saw in the last few books how utterly alien their thinking was becoming, as well as an obsession with the Dragon.  It's a pet theory only obviously, but I think the Fain thing is a failsafe built into the system.  Rand made the "right" choice so Fain had no purpose and the pattern shoved Mat in to deal with the now unneeded factor.  

A good comparison would be the Matrix IMO.  Each iteration of "The One" involved a reset of the system to status quo and things continuing.  And let's be fair, while there's a lot of bad stuff in the Matrix, for the VAST majority  it's just life without issue.  Once Neo breaks the pattern a new evil starts spiraling out of control that is an enemy to both Neo and the Opposition.

Hmmm... I think there is some more that could be discussed here but it's getting pretty deep. And slightly off topic, lol. I really like this idea though, that the Dark One somehow fights all Tarmon Gaidons at the same time with the same conclusion. But also I am not confident this is exactly what happens as there are some holes to be filled I think.

 

However, to return to the original topic, I think our conversation leaves us with a tangent possibility. If the Dark One fights all of these fights at once, I think we are saying that would explain why he doesn't "learn", yes? So it is possible he really does want to win. But still remains it's possible he doesn't. And at least for me, given that he still does indeed make some silly decisions and he does indeed show at least a decent amount of intelligence, I still feel he could easily have lost on purpose. I do believe he is intelligent enough regarding the pattern and wheel that he must understand how it works enough to know the infinite instances of Tarmon Gaidon. But also I suppose we are presuming to understand a pretty powerful being that doesn't perceive things as we do.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Consider the scene where Ishamael is brooding over his age of legends version of chess where the most elegant way to win is to force the opponent to move the piece "the fisher" onto particular squares - I think this was a heavy hint towards my conclusion above (at least that Ishamael who has the most philosophical insight into the struggle thinks of it this way).    It also explains why he was so concerned when Rand was maimed as the fisher piece is also depicted this way (and maiming on the path to victory for a chosen one is a very common trope - consider Neo and Maud'Dib in the later Dune books being blinded for example).

[Sabio]

The thing is as Rand discovered, what winning is for the DO isn't necessarily what a mortal might consider winning.  I feel mortals can never understand what a being like the DO thinks or views things.  They think in mortal terms.  Rand saw for the Light to win and destroy the DO would ruin free will and basiclly create a world the DO wanted where there is no choice between good or evil.  Rand thought the DO idea of winning was to destroy hope, make people despair and beg for mercy.  The DO doesn't see winning as his armies destroying the army of light, he wants to destroy hope.  

 

I always felt all the other worlds and such was the patterns fail safe device, where if the DO does win on one world there are other worlds where the pattern still chugs along on.  

 

The DO doesn't learn because he attracts the same type of people every time.  Selfish, greedy, self serving, ones who will plot against each other as much as they do the enemy.   His followers will never understand him

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

I still find it makes more sense to consider the Dark One as a personification of entropy rather than of evil - in so far as he "wants" anything it is to reach an end to time - either a sudden progression to the end state of total dissolution or a position of stasis.  This also explains why he existence is required since without entropy time (and therefore existence) has not meaning.  If the one power is the force that powers the wheel of time the dark one (properly restrained) is the force which causes it to run "forwards".

[Aan-Alone]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:10 PM, KakitaOCU said:

A good comparison would be the Matrix IMO.  Each iteration of "The One" involved a reset of the system to status quo and things continuing.  And let's be fair, while there's a lot of bad stuff in the Matrix, for the VAST majority  it's just life without issue.

I always took 'The Matrix' to be life, as in messy IRL...problems and all. So people have issues on a daily basis. The machines figured out that our nature requires us to be challenged. No challenge or too easy and we suspect the nature of reality and revolt or otherwise not serve the purpose the machines have given us. Too hard, and we commit suicide, or revolt, etc.

I took Neo as the system check to remind us of our innate humanity; a reminder to pursue your dreams, no matter how unlikely or outlandish; and finally a reminder that the reality you experience isn't necessarily the ultimate or true reality, so test your individual boundaries and see how far you can push the envelope.

 

A good comparison to the DR, but not a perfect one, imo.

 

What I still struggle to understand is how the machine was able to incorporate Neo into the Matrix program to produce a more-improved Matrix iteration. Neo isn't a program but an individual human consciousness. Unless the machine is/was able to implant an AI into a human embryo?