How much "Free will" is there in the WOT?

[Scarloc99]

The concept of Free Will is an interesting one, if I am destined to do a thing, but make my own choices in getting there then have I set on a fixed path or did I haver free will to get there. 

Wanting to avoid a wide ranging debate about free will in our own world is there such a thing as true free will in the WOT, or, does everyone exist on a thread as pre determined on a pattern? Alternatively, do some honestly have free will while others, those more intrinsically linked to the wheel like Rand, Mat, Perrin, the Forsaken, Aes sedai etc, have a more fixed pattern. 

Personally I am torn, on the one hand the events leading to Rand just being born as the Dragon indicate that there is a distinct lack of free will for some. Events where set in place many aeons before to make sure Tigraine would become a Maiden and then die on Dragonmount. Alternatively the finn tell Matt he can make a choice, but, if he chooses the wrong path he will die. This indicates an element of free will in the world, but, by making the choices the pattern does not want you to make the result will be you are removed from the pattern. Min also suggests that people have a choice, her visions sometimes changing or weakening/strengthening based on what people do. Although, the visions themselves may be a way of prompting a person on a particular path. 

Additionally the very existence of Taveren by definition removes free will, how many people are forced to make choices they usually wouldn't just by being in close proximity to Rand? 

So did RJ or BS ever discuss this concept? What do other people think, does true free will exist in the WOT? 

[Sabio]

I think there is free will, LTT could have refused to try to seal the bore, Rand could have refused to go to the waste, Rand could have said screw it and hooked up with Lanfear.  Now would something of happened after that would have forced LTT or Rand to try it later?  But the big issue is the pattern seems to set people up to fail.  LTT never could have succeeded, so the pattern pretty much set him up to fail and go insane.  Tigraine was set up to die.  I see it as the pattern can push you to towards something and your fate might be set but in the end the person does still have some (sometimes not alot) of say in it.

 

Free will a big factor of WOT, which is why no one is destined to be good or bad every turning.  The Forsaken next time will be different souls, so to give people a choice.  

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

10 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Additionally the very existence of Taveren by definition removes free will, how many people are forced to make choices they usually wouldn't just by being in close proximity to Rand? 

Tuon for example clearly feels the pattern willing her to accept Rand's truce but has sufficient will not to do so - clearly an act of free will.

[Scarloc99]

Quote

Tuon for example clearly feels the pattern willing her to accept Rand's truce but has sufficient will not to do so - clearly an act of free will.

Or was this what she was meant to do in this turning of the wheel? Her rejecting Rands Truce leads then later to him achieving another prophesy when he returns to her. If she had given in this first time then things would not have resolved in the same way. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Jsbrads2]

The Dragon is the man who chose to save the true world and accepted the sacrifice of his own life, not a man is chosen and then forced against his will.

When Rand was on the mountain top and truly embraced death, things got easier for him. Unfortunately, things aren’t so easy in the real world.

Similarly reading the pattern is no different than taking a time machine to tomorrow watching your best walk a lady cross the street, traveling back in time and telling your friend “I know something you will do tomorrow and you don’t have the free will to change it.” You write down: You walk the lady across the street at the time X:XX. Then at X:XX+1 you show him the paper you already wrote. He will say, but I chose to do that, and he would be right. 

[Asthereal]

On 11/13/2022 at 8:27 PM, Jsbrads2 said:

Similarly reading the pattern is no different than taking a time machine to tomorrow watching your best walk a lady cross the street, traveling back in time and telling your friend “I know something you will do tomorrow and you don’t have the free will to change it.” You write down: You walk the lady across the street at the time X:XX. Then at X:XX+1 you show him the paper you already wrote. He will say, but I chose to do that, and he would be right. 

 

I guess the Creator made these souls in such a way as that they will choose correctly for the Pattern every time. Note that Tuon's first refusal was necessary for Rand to realize his approach was wrong, which allowed him to do a better job the second time, and this lesson also helped him in other situations.

That's the problem with predetermination and a Creator designing things. There might be free will, but these souls will be designed in such a way as to make decisions that will lead to the determined outcome. Rand will never choose to just take Lanfear as his wife and be done with it. It isn't in his character to do so, and it never will be, as it's the same soul every turning of the Wheel.

[ForsakenPotato]

Yes and no, in my opinion. Rand being the dragon means he will face the dark one. Even if he didn't want to seek out the conflict it would come to him. On the flip side he has a lot of choices in how that confrontation eventually happens, and he's quite strategic leading up to it. Confronting the dark one was inevitable, defeating him, in my opinion, wasn't.

 

Also, on a meta level, if success is inevitable, there's no real stakes for the whole series. That just doesn't seem like a choice most authors would make.

[Asthereal]

7 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

Also, on a meta level, if success is inevitable, there's no real stakes for the whole series. That just doesn't seem like a choice most authors would make.

I mean, he's not going to write it in such a way as for the readers to feel like success is inevitable. He wrote Moridin the way he did in part to make us feel like we have a very slim chance of success, raising the stakes.

But in hindsight I feel like Moridin is wrong and success is inevitable despite how it was written. But to be fair: that's my theory. There's no real proof. It's just what I read into the story.

[KakitaOCU]

I think the answer is "yes" and "it depends" and "it's complicated".

Fun fact.  Do you really have free will?  Or do you have the illusion of it which is so near indistinguishable as to make it an irrelevant point for us?

Could you go walk in front of a bus?  Really?  Not, are you capable of it, but could you do it just because?  I'd argue no.  

After decades of martial arts training there are certain responses to a physical threat that are so muscle memory that I don't actively do them.  Do I have free will to act or not act?  One might argue that my free will was the decision to train years ago.  But then I respond with what made sure I was near that MA school or what made me decide learning to fight was worthwhile?  You can always roll it back and find some external reason that forced a choice going all the way back to your Parents circumstances leading to you existing (And then you can keep going).

[Aan-Alone]

I think it all boils down to choice, And consciousness. 

 

You may think this is a given, but I'd argue that there's an infinite variety in awareness levels. And if you're not aware that you have a choice; if you're not conscious of the choice on any level. Then how can you have any free will to choose?

 

Choices matter and free will is ultimately a choice of what mental/emotional/psychic or spiritual state you choose to interact with reality through. Free will is a metaphysical filter.

[books of Robert Jordan]

Robert Jordan had a different kind of approach to this topic:

 

“As the Wheel must turn, men must age and then die, but, as the Wheel must turn, they will be born again. In other ages, they may be quite different, but in any given age, though their circumstances may be different, they will be much the same kind of person. Free will means, though, that they may be kind or hard, good or evil. You must guide your behaviour and take responsibility for it; predestination does not work that strongly on individuals.”

In other words: the journey is more important than the destination.

(I still maintain my opinion that there's no free will: see Min, Eg etc)
 

[Jaccsen]

On 5/13/2024 at 4:05 AM, books of Robert Jordan said:

Robert Jordan had a different kind of approach to this topic:

 

“As the Wheel must turn, men must age and then die, but, as the Wheel must turn, they will be born again. In other ages, they may be quite different, but in any given age, though their circumstances may be different, they will be much the same kind of person. Free will means, though, that they may be kind or hard, good or evil. You must guide your behaviour and take responsibility for it; predestination does not work that strongly on individuals.”

In other words: the journey is more important than the destination.

(I still maintain my opinion that there's no free will: see Min, Eg etc)
 

There is a lot of free will. Tigraine was given a choice by Gitara. It was not a great choice, but it was a choice.

 

Morraine was given a choice by the wise ones to go to Rhuidean. They saw possibilities in the Dream. The portal stones all showed different choices and decisions.

[Dan G]

Both in fiction and real life, often there seems to be little to no choice in choosing the circumstances one finds themself in. 

Free will is the ability to choose your response to those circumstances. 

Based on the choices one makes, their situation may improve, or , at the very least, allow for a different internal response. And this is where things can become complex, as many of our responses and habits are so ingrained that it can be very difficult to alter one's trajectory thru life. 

We see many examples of this in WOT. One that comes to mind is Rand's innate resistance to putting a woman in danger, even when that action could be seen as disrespectful from the woman's point of view. Even after being told that he is being disrespectful on several occasions and even beaten by the Maidens over this issue, Rand continued to struggle with this almost to the very end. 

In a sense, Rand attempted to remove the Maidens free will and impose his own will and belief systems while thy attempted to retain their ability to live according to their own code of values.  

[Shadar Logothian]

***Possible Spoiler Alert****

Some wide ranging responses here regarding Free will - what is it, and how much of it exists in WOT.  However, I will keep my response very narrow.  Ultimately, there really isn't true free will in the series.  My evidence for that assessment is Rand's visit to Ebou Dar in TGS.  He attempted to destroy the Seachan fleet but was unable to channel.  He was physically sick at the attempt.  The pattern wanted him to bow before the Crystal Throne to fulfill the prophecies, not destroy them.  If that doesn't answer the question, at least for the main character, not sure what will.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I don't think it is something that can be answered. 

 

For example, Mat tried to resist the pull of the ta'veren repeatedly, yet was unable. Perrin at the same point in the Age Lace, successfully did break free. So is that Perrin exercising his free will, and Mat failing to do so, or was it fated before time? Was every struggle of Mat preordained or could he wriggle as he chose as long as he ended up in Rhuidean on time? Or was every move he made on the Stones' board against Thom written in stone?

 

There isn't anyway to separate chance from fated.

 

Admittedly, Min and Foretelling does mean it isn't completely random, but it doesn't answer the degree of freewill that anyone has - not least as those prophecies were fated to happen for those exact circumstances in the "no free will" scenario, but it says nothing for other circumstances. What happens if Min turns a different corner and sees someone else and has a different vision? Would visions she didn't have still come true?  

[Samt]

I recently saw a joke about a DnD item that is a "truth serum."  But instead of making someone tell the truth, it simply alters reality (retroactively and including memories as necessary) so that whatever is said is true.  Along those lines, do Min's visions become locked because she sees them, or is she simply an observer of that which was already locked?  Does she herself have enough free will to avoid seeing the visions that she was "supposed" to see?  Would it matter?  To what extent are some of here visions self fulfilling prophecies where those who know about them change their actions because of the visions and thus cause them to be fulfilled?  (Alivia?)

[Sabio]

On 11/14/2024 at 5:29 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't think it is something that can be answered. 

 

For example, Mat tried to resist the pull of the ta'veren repeatedly, yet was unable. Perrin at the same point in the Age Lace, successfully did break free. So is that Perrin exercising his free will, and Mat failing to do so, or was it fated before time? Was every struggle of Mat preordained or could he wriggle as he chose as long as he ended up in Rhuidean on time? Or was every move he made on the Stones' board against Thom written in stone?

 

There isn't anyway to separate chance from fated.

 

Admittedly, Min and Foretelling does mean it isn't completely random, but it doesn't answer the degree of freewill that anyone has - not least as those prophecies were fated to happen for those exact circumstances in the "no free will" scenario, but it says nothing for other circumstances. What happens if Min turns a different corner and sees someone else and has a different vision? Would visions she didn't have still come true?  

Free Will was Jordan's main theme.  Everything Mat does or doesn't do isn't carved in stone beforehand.  It would make him a puppet.  But being ta'vern he has less free will than others, the pattern will occasionally yank him back on path.  Rand could've said forget this and refused to leave Two Rivers.  It's also my understanding Min doesn't see like 10 years down the road.  Seems like everything she sees is more of a near future sort of thing.

[Tenobia si bashere kazadi]

I think there is free will. The pattern can nudge things in a certain direction but people can still choose. Mat could have chosen not to help the Tairens and Cairhienin but his sense of duty meant he did.

[driftnet]

Would the Creator allow the Pattern to be destroyed? That is your answer.