Has Rings of Power proven that Fantasy Adaptations are really hard?

[Samt]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Not really. First: Elves did show up in places they shouldn’t have (Helm’s Deep?) and scenes were added for Hugo Weaving. (Deep conversations with Aragorn that are not explicitly in the books). 
 

The Ned Stark comparison is silly. Mo isn’t dead in tGH, she just doesn’t get many pages. There’s nothing at all wrong with bringing things that happen off page onto the screen to take advantage of your A-list actress and her capabilities. 

I'm not sure why people keep repeating the notion that these are just things that happened or even might have happened off page.  Mo doesn't get shielded or stilled or whatever happened to her off page.  Perrin didn't accidentally kill his wife and then pretend she never existed.  Egwene didn't bring Nynaeve back from the dead.  I think those things would have come up.  There is an obvious and meaningful distinction between adding something that might have happened but wasn't explicitly shown and adding something that clearly didn't and couldn't have happened.  

Edited January 19, 2023 by Samt

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Perhaps people need to stop attributing the worst motivations in others, when they dislike the product they put out?

Not sure if you're referring to me or the forum in general, but I never attributed motivation to Rafe or others.

 

And the opposite is true as well.  Liking the product put out shouldn't automatically attribute best motivations...

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

I'm not sure why people keep repeating the notion that these are just things that happened or even might have happened off page.  Mo doesn't get shielded or stilled or whatever happened to her off page.  Perrin didn't accidentally kill his wife and then pretend she never existed.  Egwene didn't bring Nynaeve back from the dead.  I think those things would have come up.  There is an obvious and meaningful distinction between adding something that might have happened but wasn't explicitly shown and adding something that clearly didn't and couldn't have happened.  

 

Perrin didn't pretend his wife never existed.  He grieved all season over it and it will be the motivating factor for his character growth for the next couple of seasons I presume. Killing his wife was a way to show, not tell, why he be becomes afraid of his own strength and why he will resist the call of the wolves.  It will also be used to, I presume, to explain why he becomes obsessed with protecting Faile.  We can only wait and see on this front.

 

Egwene healing a still alive Nynaeve was certainly done poorly and has been admitted as such by Rafe.  The method of the healing was a day of shooting change due to new covid restrictions from what we have heard.  As to how they can address this going forward could be as simple as giving Egwene a block when it comes to healing leaving her unable to heal more than a scratch as it was in the books.

 

As for Moiraine being still/shielded it gives the writers more to leeway to expanded her story for next season.  We don't know exactly what they are planning to do with her aside from eventually meeting up with Rand in what seems to be Cairhien.  Parts of it may echo her story in the books, researching more on the Forsaken and the Dragon.  Perhaps it will address her family.  If she is shielded it may draw in Suian as she is shown to be adept at undoing knots and perhaps that will be a piece in her being deposed.  Perhaps they discover that it is infact a tied off shield and they need to track down a male channeler to help undo it.  I wonder where they can find one of those.

 

While these all are changes to the source material none of them alone or together derail the story from the books.  They are all opportunities to expand the story in areas or to show rather than tell things to the audience.  Remember we do not have access to Perrins lengthy internal monologues.

[Samt]

16 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

Perrin didn't pretend his wife never existed.  He grieved all season over it and it will be the motivating factor for his character growth for the next couple of seasons I presume. Killing his wife was a way to show, not tell, why he be becomes afraid of his own strength and why he will resist the call of the wolves.  It will also be used to, I presume, to explain why he becomes obsessed with protecting Faile.  We can only wait and see on this front.

 

Egwene healing a still alive Nynaeve was certainly done poorly and has been admitted as such by Rafe.  The method of the healing was a day of shooting change due to new covid restrictions from what we have heard.  As to how they can address this going forward could be as simple as giving Egwene a block when it comes to healing leaving her unable to heal more than a scratch as it was in the books.

 

As for Moiraine being still/shielded it gives the writers more to leeway to expanded her story for next season.  We don't know exactly what they are planning to do with her aside from eventually meeting up with Rand in what seems to be Cairhien.  Parts of it may echo her story in the books, researching more on the Forsaken and the Dragon.  Perhaps it will address her family.  If she is shielded it may draw in Suian as she is shown to be adept at undoing knots and perhaps that will be a piece in her being deposed.  Perhaps they discover that it is infact a tied off shield and they need to track down a male channeler to help undo it.  I wonder where they can find one of those.

 

While these all are changes to the source material none of them alone or together derail the story from the books.  They are all opportunities to expand the story in areas or to show rather than tell things to the audience.  Remember we do not have access to Perrins lengthy internal monologues.

So you're admitting this stuff didn't happen off page in the books?  

 

A lot of the things that you lay out in your post are exactly the problem with making these changes.  These changes have ripple effects.  The fact that they now have to come up with a reason that Egwene isn't a good healer is a bug, not a feature.  Moiraine now being forced to take a different path and do other things isn't the upside of making changes.  The fact that these changes start to add up and erode the story into something that is hardly recognizable is precisely the point.  

[swollymammoth]

I actually don't believe that Fantasy books are less suited for TV.  What I do think is that fantasy books often go against the preconceptions held by most people working in TV about what "works for TV." 

 

Mainly, there's this perceived need for manufactured drama in TV. Perrin killing is wife, Mat's parents, etc. 

 

Not to say that there aren't changes to be made when adapting from book to TV, but I think the people in charge of these adaptations are generally risk averse, so they have a much more narrow view of what "works" than exists in reality. I wouldn't be surprised if, in 10 years, our view of what's possible in TV has expanded to the point that we look back on Wheel of Prime and realize that most of the concessions the showrunners made in the name of "adapting" the story to TV were based on perceptions about the medium that turned out to be pure superstition. 

 

Kind of like how we look back on Seinfeld, and it seems crazy to think that there was a time when people actually thought it was a hard and fast rule that sitcoms had to follow a strict formulas and the characters had to learn and grow. 

 

This I foretell.  

[DigificWriter]

43 minutes ago, Samt said:

The fact that these changes start to add up and erode the story into something that is hardly recognizable is precisely the point.  

 

Stating that something is a fact doesn't actually make it a fact.

 

Many people do not share your opinion that the choices that Rafe and his team are making are bad, and treating that opinion as if it is a universally recognized and accepted truth does you no favors.

[Skipp]

19 hours ago, Samt said:

So you're admitting this stuff didn't happen off page in the books?  

 

A lot of the things that you lay out in your post are exactly the problem with making these changes.  These changes have ripple effects.  The fact that they now have to come up with a reason that Egwene isn't a good healer is a bug, not a feature.  Moiraine now being forced to take a different path and do other things isn't the upside of making changes.  The fact that these changes start to add up and erode the story into something that is hardly recognizable is precisely the point.  

 

I have never said that the writers haven't added events that were not in the book.  I am saying that there is a reason they added these events.  Most adaptations do this, my 2nd favourite book series(The Expanse) added and chopped book events quite often for its show.

 

As I said in my previous post the Egwene event was a day of shooting rewrite due to covid restrictions.  The team has admitted that they did not execute that rewrite well.  So yeah, taking the best of a bad situation is not a terrible stance.

 

Giving your most famous actress more to do in a season where they would disappear is not a horrible idea either.  We don't know what exactly they are going to give Moiraine to do but from what I saw in the first season I imagine it is going to double or triple duty of expanding the world or foreshadowing future events.

 

But what events are you afraid that these changes are going to erode?  At least for me I can see the reason for said changes and show they map into the existing story.  Now I expect more changes are coming and even how I expect the writers to tie these changes in the story will be wrong.  But I am fairly certain they are planning for this.  Rafe has said that he has an outline for how to fit the story in "x" amount of seasons so I imagine he has a general idea of why these changes are being made and how they will pay off later in the show.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Skipp
Changed "Writers have added" to "Writers haven't added"

[DojoToad]

15 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Stating that something is a fact doesn't actually make it a fact.

 

Many people do not share your opinion that the choices that Rafe and his team are making are bad, and treating that opinion as if it is a universally recognized and accepted truth does you no favors.

Whether the changes are bad or good is largely irrelevant.  I believe the point @Samt is making is that these changes will force Rafe and team to make further changes to stay consistent with S1 which will likely take the story even further from the source book material.  They made a lot of changes (good or bad) and these changes dictate what they can do going forward.  Choices have consequences.

[Samt]

11 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

I have never said that the writers have added events that were not in the book. 

Now I'm confused.  So you're saying that the writers haven't added anything?  Or just that you never said they have and you're not committing one way or the other?  

 

23 minutes ago, Skipp said:

As I said in my previous post the Egwene event was a day of shooting rewrite due to covid restrictions.  The team has admitted that they did not execute that rewrite well.  So yeah, taking the best of a bad situation is not a terrible stance.

 

So the whole idea of Nynaeve getting revived was something they did spur of the moment, or just that they changed what it looked like?  This isn't the sort of thing that lends credence to the claim that Rafe has a master plan and is carefully crafting things.  

 

26 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Giving your most famous actress more to do in a season where they would disappear is not a horrible idea either.  We don't know what exactly they are going to give Moiraine to do but from what I saw in the first season I imagine it is going to double or triple duty of expanding the world or foreshadowing future events.

 

Yeah, this is my objection.  Rosamund Pike is famous so we're going to change the story.  That doesn't make me feel like Rafe has a vision of how this fits together.  

 

28 minutes ago, Skipp said:

But what events are you afraid that these changes are going to erode?  At least for me I can see the reason for said changes and show they map into the existing story.  Now I expect more changes are coming and even how I expect the writers to tie these changes in the story will be wrong.  But I am fairly certain they are planning for this.  Rafe has said that he has an outline for how to fit the story in "x" amount of seasons so I imagine he has a general idea of why these changes are being made and how they will pay off later in the show.

What can we guarantee they aren't going to erode?  The Tower of Ghenjei, for instance, appears that it already can't happen in its original form.  Rahvin and Morgase probably no longer works out.  Is the tower even going to split?  Does Faile even  exist in this universe?  Are we going to Tear?  If not, does Callandor exist?  If not, how does the encounter at Shayol Gul even work?  Why is Agelmar dead?  If we don't go to Tear, does anyone go through a door to ask questions?  If not, why does Matt marry Tuon or really do anything and why does anyone go to Rhuidean?  

Of course, it's probably possible to work it out so the series gets back to a story that is much closer than the books.  But if that was intended, there was no reason to get so far off track to begin with.  I suspect that the writers lack both the motivation and the skill to correct these deviations.  

 

56 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I actually don't believe that Fantasy books are less suited for TV.  What I do think is that fantasy books often go against the preconceptions held by most people working in TV about what "works for TV." 

 

Mainly, there's this perceived need for manufactured drama in TV. Perrin killing is wife, Mat's parents, etc. 

 

Not to say that there aren't changes to be made when adapting from book to TV, but I think the people in charge of these adaptations are generally risk averse, so they have a much more narrow view of what "works" than exists in reality. I wouldn't be surprised if, in 10 years, our view of what's possible in TV has expanded to the point that we look back on Wheel of Prime and realize that most of the concessions the showrunners made in the name of "adapting" the story to TV were based on perceptions about the medium that turned out to be pure superstition. 

 

Kind of like how we look back on Seinfeld, and it seems crazy to think that there was a time when people actually thought it was a hard and fast rule that sitcoms had to follow a strict formulas and the characters had to learn and grow. 

 

This I foretell.  

I think this is an accurate assessment.  WoT should have not been ever really framed as episodic TV.  If you have business reasons for dropping the story in installments, that's not a problem.  But the paradigm of breaking it into 45-60 minutes chunks that need to stand as individual bits is flawed when it comes to fantasy adaptations.  Just make an 8 hour movie and the break it as needed.  

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

Giving your most famous actress more to do in a season where they would disappear is not a horrible idea either.

lol imagine if GoT had said, "Well, Sean Bean is our most famous actor. He's carrying the first season and plenty of people have come to the show just for him. Let's not kill him at the end." 

 

If the WoT showrunners had any cajones at all, they would have no trouble trusting the rest of the cast to carry the series while Moiraine is offscreen. The difference is that GoT is actually a good show and people connected to the other actors and characters, and the writers put in tons of effort to making sure that would be the case so that when Eddard Stark died they could hand off the show to the other characters and know that the audience would still stick around. 

 

Instead, WoT is clinging to Rosamund Pike for dear life, to the point that she's getting her own, show-original arc in the second season which is only going to force the writers to further mangle the story. 

[SinisterDeath]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Not sure if you're referring to me or the forum in general, but I never attributed motivation to Rafe or others.

 

And the opposite is true as well.  Liking the product put out shouldn't automatically attribute best motivations...

The negative attributions are based on the over exaggeration of his actions.
The positive attributions are at least backed up by his own words.

To put it bluntly, those that say he's "Shitting on RJ's grave", are taking their dislike of the tv series as proof he hates what was written and isn't a true fan.

Those that are saying he's trying his best to be faithful, often have read/listened to the guy talk about the book series

Now, can we drop this stupid back and forth?

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Samt said:

So you're admitting this stuff didn't happen off page in the books?  

 

A lot of the things that you lay out in your post are exactly the problem with making these changes.  These changes have ripple effects.  The fact that they now have to come up with a reason that Egwene isn't a good healer is a bug, not a feature.  Moiraine now being forced to take a different path and do other things isn't the upside of making changes.  The fact that these changes start to add up and erode the story into something that is hardly recognizable is precisely the point.  

What did Moiraine do in TGH?
She visited some old Aes Sedai to discuss the Dragon Reborn. We're probably getting exactly that. We're probably getting an exposition dump on the prophecy of the dragon.

Egwene healing - People bring this up, yet ignore that the Yellow Ajah actively pursued her to join the Yellow Ajah. She could heal. She wasn't bad at it. She just didn't have anywhere near Nyneave's talent.

 

[DigificWriter]

34 minutes ago, Samt said:

Yeah, this is my objection

 

Cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

 

4 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

If the WoT showrunners had any cajones at all, they would have no trouble trusting the rest of the cast to carry the series while Moiraine is offscreen

 

Moiraine is the primary narrator of Rafe and Co.'s approach to adapting WoT. They're therefore going to make decisions that allow her to continue in that role and also that highlight her.

 

Contrary to what some people are trying to claim, the decision to make Moiraine the primary narrator of a story that is not expressly or exclusively hers is not in and of itself some crime against humanity.

 

You can disagree with the decision without defaming the character and integrity of the people who made it.

[SinisterDeath]

36 minutes ago, Samt said:

So the whole idea of Nynaeve getting revived was something they did spur of the moment, or just that they changed what it looked like?  This isn't the sort of thing that lends credence to the claim that Rafe has a master plan and is carefully crafting things.  

 

They intended to have Egwene perform CPR on Nynaeve. CPR doesn't work on someone who is dead-dead. They couldn't do CPR because of COVID, so they basically had her do magic healing. Nynaeve wasn't dead. You can't heal death.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Samt said:

Yeah, this is my objection.  Rosamund Pike is famous so we're going to change the story.  That doesn't make me feel like Rafe has a vision of how this fits together.  

See previous post.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Samt said:

What can we guarantee they aren't going to erode?  The Tower of Ghenjei, for instance, appears that it already can't happen in its original form.  Rahvin and Morgase probably no longer works out.  Is the tower even going to split?  Does Faile even  exist in this universe?  Are we going to Tear?  If not, does Callandor exist?  If not, how does the encounter at Shayol Gul even work?  Why is Agelmar dead?  If we don't go to Tear, does anyone go through a door to ask questions?  If not, why does Matt marry Tuon or really do anything and why does anyone go to Rhuidean?  

Of course, it's probably possible to work it out so the series gets back to a story that is much closer than the books.  But if that was intended, there was no reason to get so far off track to begin with.  I suspect that the writers lack both the motivation and the skill to correct these deviations.  

Why can't the Tower of Ghenjei happen? Mat barely remembered the place.

Rahvin/Morgrase - What indicates that won't happen? We're getting Elayne next season. We already know the Forsaken are getting released, so why wouldn't this happen?

Tower Split - We literally have a plot line about power politics in the tower with the Reds eyeing the Chair. How did you ever get the idea the splits not happening? 

Why wouldn't Callandor exist? 

Agelmar - The Actor quit the show. His role in the overall series is low.

Tldr: Nothing you've stated is confirmed to happen or not happen in the tv series. These are just "whataboutisms".
 

 

42 minutes ago, Samt said:

I think this is an accurate assessment.  WoT should have not been ever really framed as episodic TV.  If you have business reasons for dropping the story in installments, that's not a problem.  But the paradigm of breaking it into 45-60 minutes chunks that need to stand as individual bits is flawed when it comes to fantasy adaptations.  Just make an 8 hour movie and the break it as needed.  

You can't just make an "8 hour movie" and break it into pieces. What you're thinking of is a "Mini-series" approach. 
Amazon's going with the weekly approach (same as GoT), not the Netflix approach of binging an entire series in one day. That change in approach does change how a show is made... But even then, Netflix isn't just shooting an 8 hour movie.
 

[swollymammoth]

21 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Contrary to what some people are trying to claim, the decision to make Moiraine the primary narrator of a story that is not expressly or exclusively hers is not in and of itself some crime against humanity.

No one's saying this. It's just a decision that has ripple effects, and some of us are actually acknowledging those. 

 

It's simple math. The books are long, and adapting them is tough. Season 2 is going to be a hybrid of TGH and TDR. That's a LOT of material. There are a LOT of great moments in those books, and some of them were always going to end up on the cutting room floor. The thing is that now, even MORE of those will be left out because the writers have to spend time on an arc for Moiraine that's only in there so that they can shoehorn a marketable actress into the story. This is a point tons of people have made before, so I won't beat it to death. 

 

It actually would have been easier for Moiraine to just be in episode 1 and the last 2. His Dark Materials did this with James McAvoy. The scheduling is easier and it's cheaper because you don't have to pay them as much, and you only have to use them as much as you need them. 

 

The only reason she's there is because someone up top made the decision that the show would sink without her. 

[DojoToad]

44 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

You can disagree with the decision without defaming the character and integrity of the people who made it.

Yes.

[DigificWriter]

30 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

No one's saying this

 

@Samt is.

[DigificWriter]

45 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

His Dark Materials did this with James McAvoy

 

Asriel Belacqua was not the primary narrator of HDM's story as adapted to television.

 

With regards to this notion that Rafe and his team only changed Moiraine's role as the primary narrator of the WoT story because of Rosamund Pike's casting, it's a load of horse dung.

 

The decision to make Moiraine the primary narrator of this version of the WoT story was made long before Rosamund Pike was cast.

Edited January 19, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Samt]

32 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

@Samt is.

A crime against humanity?  No.  A poor decision that reflects poorly on the judgment of anyone involved in making it?  Absolutely.  

 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

They intended to have Egwene perform CPR on Nynaeve. CPR doesn't work on someone who is dead-dead. They couldn't do CPR because of COVID, so they basically had her do magic healing. Nynaeve wasn't dead. You can't heal death.

 

 

See previous post.

 

 

Why can't the Tower of Ghenjei happen? Mat barely remembered the place.

Rahvin/Morgrase - What indicates that won't happen? We're getting Elayne next season. We already know the Forsaken are getting released, so why wouldn't this happen?

Tower Split - We literally have a plot line about power politics in the tower with the Reds eyeing the Chair. How did you ever get the idea the splits not happening? 

Why wouldn't Callandor exist? 

Agelmar - The Actor quit the show. His role in the overall series is low.

Tldr: Nothing you've stated is confirmed to happen or not happen in the tv series. These are just "whataboutisms".
 

 

You can't just make an "8 hour movie" and break it into pieces. What you're thinking of is a "Mini-series" approach. 
Amazon's going with the weekly approach (same as GoT), not the Netflix approach of binging an entire series in one day. That change in approach does change how a show is made... But even then, Netflix isn't just shooting an 8 hour movie.
 

In regards to the Tower of Ghenjei, Matt goes there because of a letter that Moiraine writes because of her romantic connection to Thom Merrilin, whom she hasn't met in the series.  

 

For Rahvin, speculation is that Rahvin doesn't exist in the series.  Also, Matt probably isn't going to Caemlyn, which makes the storyline need a rework.  

 

For tower split, I'm just speculating, obviously.  But Elaida hasn't been introduced and doesn't appear to be cast.  Which makes the tower split require a rework, obviously.  

 

For Callandor, season 2 is a combination of tGH and tDR and appears to be climaxing in Falme.  Not going to Tear raises a lot of questions.  

 

Yes, all of this is speculation.  And I'd be happy to see any part of it be wrong.  My overall point is that the story is complicated and changing practically anything has serious ripples that you either have to correct with more changes or just ride to their logical conclusion.  

 

In regards to an 8 hour movie, obviously it's more complicated.  My general point is that the more of the story you do at once, the better.  The more of the story that you dribble out, the more likely you back yourself into a corner without really understanding it until it's too late.  

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

The decision to make Moiraine the primary narrator of this version of the WoT story was made long before Rosamund Pike was cast.

Yeah, and it was always going to follow that they would then cast an extremely recognizable actress in the role. Then, for marketing purposes, the story was retooled in order to keep said actress at the forefront even during seasons where her character would have little or nothing to do. 

 

This was always going to happen because, even if these decisions weren't made specifically with Rosamund Pike in mind, they were made knowing that someone like her, someone with her name recognition and star power, would occupy that place. So yes, Moiraine's was made the primary narrrator for marketing reasons. She was always going to be played by a bankable, recognizable star, and the decision to make her the narrator was made with that in mind.

 

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Asriel Belacqua was not the primary narrator of HDM's story as adapted to television.

 

And this was a good decision. They could have done this. Heck, I think it's safe to say that Rafe wouldn't have done this. Of course that's unfair speculation, and I'll admit it. 

 

The point is that HBO actually showed some admirable restraint with their handling of Asriel. They sidelined the most marketable actor in the show because it was accurate to the books, better for the story, and allowed for the focus to be where it should be, on the main character. Rafe showed no such restraint. 

[swollymammoth]

49 minutes ago, Samt said:

For Callandor, season 2 is a combination of tGH and tDR and appears to be climaxing in Falme.  Not going to Tear raises a lot of questions.  

 

This is actually baffling to me. Like, I'm all for combining tGH and tDR. It makes total sense. You could start in Shienar, have the horn get stolen, set off on the quest, go through the portal stone, see the alternate lives etc, and then just have everyone end up in Tear instead of Falme. Rand can appear in the sky when he fights Ba'alzamon with Callandor and Mat can blow the Horn to repel a Seanchan attack outside the city. In this scenario, the Seanchan would be occupying Tear or leading an assault on Tear during the climax. 

 

Why on earth would you choose to have the climax in Falme instead? I swear. These people can't get even the smallest thing right. 

[DigificWriter]

5 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

it was always going to follow that they would then cast an extremely recognizable actress in the role

 

Not really.

 

Rosamund's casting happened because they thought she'd make an excellent Moiraine, not because they had chosen to make Moiraine the narrator, since the latter decision was going to happen regardless of who they cast in the role.

Edited January 20, 2023 by DigificWriter

[WhiteVeils]

I don't know how clearly the show will follow the books during S2.  But, as a thought exercise, I wrote a set of stories that followed a hypothetical S2, combining Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn, starting from the starting place of where everyone is at the end of S1, and ending up with everyone in Tear like the beginning of Shadow Rising. I moved the Tower Coup early so it even had the Tower Coup as part of the story just fine.  Almost every major event from Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn worked fine in the story, with some reframing.  Moiraine's part was expanded with the block. The climax is in Falme, just as with the show, but Rand teleports into the heart of Tear at the peak of the final battle.  It all clicked into place.

It's here: A Version of Tomorrow - WhiteVeils - The Wheel of Time (TV), Wheel of Time - Robert Jordan [Archive of Our Own]

 

Before you say 'It can't be done' because of the changes....you're wrong.  It just takes more creativity and more looking at things in different ways.

I'm not saying this is perfect or anything. The show will have to, have to, change more than this.  But I tried to explain all my reasoning for the changes I made, and if the show makes some similar changes, you'll know why ahead of time.

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

I don't know how clearly the show will follow the books during S2.  But, as a thought exercise, I wrote a set of stories that followed a hypothetical S2, combining Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn, starting from the starting place of where everyone is at the end of S1, and ending up with everyone in Tear like the beginning of Shadow Rising. I moved the Tower Coup early so it even had the Tower Coup as part of the story just fine.  Almost every major event from Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn worked fine in the story, with some reframing.  Moiraine's part was expanded with the block. The climax is in Falme, just as with the show, but Rand teleports into the heart of Tear at the peak of the final battle.  It all clicked into place.

It's here: A Version of Tomorrow - WhiteVeils - The Wheel of Time (TV), Wheel of Time - Robert Jordan [Archive of Our Own]

 

Before you say 'It can't be done' because of the changes....you're wrong.  It just takes more creativity and more looking at things in different ways.

I'm not saying this is perfect or anything. The show will have to, have to, change more than this.  But I tried to explain all my reasoning for the changes I made, and if the show makes some similar changes, you'll know why ahead of time.

Exactly. Changes already made in S1 begets more changes in S2 and beyond. Time constraints for the show will require even more changes. Will be interesting to see how recognizable the end product is to the source material. 

[holger]

11 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Why on earth would you choose to have the climax in Falme instead? I swear. These people can't get even the smallest thing right. 

Because both locations will be in the show. There is no reason why Falme would have to be cut. Falme will be in S2, and Tear will be added in a later season, probably S5, after Dumai's Wells. This makes sense because Rand does not need Callandor until much later. Moving the Seanchan invasion to Tear would have had a much bigger ripple effect on future seasons, because it would have resulted in a totally different political situation on the west coast (no refugees in the Two Rivers, different activities for the Whitecloaks etc). Also, from an in-story point of view it makes much more sense for an enemy force scouting in preparation of an invasion to first visit a close, small port with easy access, not one that is far away and protected by a labyrinth of small islands and a massive fortress. So, yes, they did get it right.

 

Jumping to Tear at the last moment, after Falme, as some have suggested, would have "burned" that location in a single episode, for very little benefit, and not allowed a full invasion of the Stone in a later season, so I am glad that is apparently not happening. Delaying the Tear events likely was the lowest-impact change possible that allows them to combine both books in S2 while following the structure of a typical TV season, and while still preserving most of the story over the course of multiple seasons. They are just reordering some of the events in time, and cutting some of the repetitive pieces.

 

It was always clear that adapting books 1-3 would be rough. They had an 8-episode 1-hour mandate for the show, and were dealing with a rigid, linear travel-heavy structure in the books, that is difficult to adapt to the structure that TV shows require. Also, books 2 and 3 are structurally repetitive and thus had to be combined, yet the conflicting travel patterns (all across the continent, in opposite directions) made that quite difficult. Things will get easier starting with book 4, when character arcs start to separate more permanently, with fewer synchronization points between them. Rafe has already indicated that S3 will follow book 4 much more closely.