Would a Stedding undo existing weaves?

[Scarloc99]

A Stedding cuts someone from the one power, effectively working as a null field for them. However does this effect include any weaves that have already been set on a person, for instance Compulsion? Would someone under the effect of that power then become immune to it in a Stedding, either temporarily while inside it, or maybe even permanently? 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[DojoToad]

Never thought about that.  Probably not though - there is no active channeling going on to maintain a compulsion, right?

 

Whereas a shield being actively maintained would melt away.  But a tied-off shield might continue...

 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by DojoToad

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

In EOTW where Loial tells Moiraine about the traveler who mentioned the Eye of the World and had something wrong with him he states that after entering the Stedding the traveler got better.   Ba'alzamon later claims he sent that traveler (implying compulsion was used) - so it appears a Stedding would cancel existing weaves.  However if so why did Azmodian not know this and go to Stedding Tsofu to remove his shield when they were near Cairhein?  Possibly Ba'alzamon used the True Power and this interacts differently with Stedding than the one power (shadowspawn /shadoweyes do avoid even vacant stedding).

[Jsbrads2]

The Stedding’s ability to cancel out access to the source is not the same as cutting a weave wrapped around your body.

the guy who felt more at ease, he was suffering from mental discomfort due to a weave, the weave wasn’t removed obviously, but entering the Stedding was like getting opiates to help with chronic pain, with core problem not removed. 

[Stedding Tofu]

I tend to think of The One Power as like The Force or a fundamental force of physics, something that is present all around, part of the nature of reality and how the in story universe works.

 

A stedding works like an exclusion zone, a bubble that is partially outside the nature of reality so The One Power cannot even be sensed.  Interestingly, this does not seem to prevent someone bringing The One Power in, if stedding work as the Guardian in Far Madding does, because Cadsuane can use saidar stored in her well to channel.  She can't tap into the source but the effects of the power act as normal if she can bring in her own power source.

 

So I think an existing weave would be unravelled on entering a stedding, analogous to the weave being cut or unravelling when released.  But if the effect of a weave like Compulsion is to damage the mind, the effects would not be removed on entering a stedding any more than a physical harm caused by The Power would be healed.

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Interestingly, this does not seem to prevent someone bringing The One Power in, if stedding work as the Guardian in Far Madding does, because Cadsuane can use saidar stored in her well to channel.  She can't tap into the source but the effects of the power act as normal if she can bring in her own power source.

 

2 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

So I think an existing weave would be unravelled on entering a stedding, analogous to the weave being cut or unravelling when released.  But if the effect of a weave like Compulsion is to damage the mind, the effects would not be removed on entering a stedding any more than a physical harm caused by The Power would be healed.

 

Steddings/Far Madding, Is like a bubble that prevents channelers from sensing or accessing the source.

Cadsuane's well, is a pool of Saidar, a mini eye of the world.

Weaves that are tied off, are no longer being "fueled" by the source, via the conduit that is the channeler.

It stands to reason, that tied off weaves, would not unravel.. but weaves that are not tied off and "sitting" on a person (like a shield), would unravel as the wielders access to the source disappears, unless they have switch their access to a well like Cadsuane's.

Evidence: Those little "wards" they placed in Rand's wounds didn't disappear when he entered Far Madding.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Far Madding is stated to be different from a Stedding.  Rand stands outside the perimeter of Far Madding and threatens to destroy the Borderland armies with the power.  He could not do that if they were in a stedding.  

[SinisterDeath]

46 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Far Madding is stated to be different from a Stedding.  Rand stands outside the perimeter of Far Madding and threatens to destroy the Borderland armies with the power.  He could not do that if they were in a stedding.  

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Winter's_Heart/Chapter_22

https://dragonmount.com/books/winters_heart/chapter-recaps/

 

It's been a while since I've read, it, but it looks like this Chapter 22 of Winters Heart implies Rand was inside Far Madding.

As for steddings.
https://
www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=stedding



Brandon states a well would work within a Stedding.

We have RJ saying that an "tied off Illusion" would disappear when entering a Stedding. But someone who has a tied off shield can't just walk into a stedding to get rid of it.

"Warder Bonds" are also some kind of permanent change brought upon by a "weave", and are exempt.

Perhaps only weaves tied off with "Spirit" stay when entering a Stedding?

[Asthereal]

23 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Evidence: Those little "wards" they placed in Rand's wounds didn't disappear when he entered Far Madding.

 

Good point. The wards that protect Rand from the wound have to have remained in place, otherwise Rand would not be able to function. This strongly supports the idea that weaves that are tied in place remain so in a bubble like Steddings or Far Madding.

 

Quote

Perhaps only weaves tied off with "Spirit" stay when entering a Stedding?

 

This is an interesting idea, and might be correct.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Asthereal

[Mailman]

20 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Far Madding is stated to be different from a Stedding.  Rand stands outside the perimeter of Far Madding and threatens to destroy the Borderland armies with the power.  He could not do that if they were in a stedding.  

Rand could have just thrown stuff into Far Madding till it was destroyed. A rock hurled with the power will still travel even if the source is removed.

[Stedding Tofu]

22 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Weaves that are tied off, are no longer being "fueled" by the source, via the conduit that is the channeler.

It stands to reason, that tied off weaves, would not unravel.. but weaves that are not tied off and "sitting" on a person (like a shield), would unravel as the wielders access to the source disappears, unless they have switch their access to a well like Cadsuane's.

Evidence: Those little "wards" they placed in Rand's wounds didn't disappear when he entered Far Madding.

 

This does appear to be the answer we're given but I find it confusing (as did BS in your post above).

 

How a tied off weave works is never really explained logically.  We know that channelling drains the user so however limitless the True Source is a wielder can only draw on a certain amount of it before  becoming exhausted. How Lanfear and Moghedien tie off shields on Asmodean and Liandrin that last seemingly indefinitely without any further input is unclear.  It suggests a permanent conduit to the source for the weave without any person present or any drain on the original weaver.  Why don't they do this all the time for a vast number of applications?  Or do they - with wards and keepings that occasionally need renewal or the wounds in Rand's side?  Is this what the standing flows from the AoL were: permanently tied-off weaves like a power grid that allowed their technology to operate reliably?

 

I'll take a punt that this free use of power for ever more is somehow possible because of the presence of The Source all around.  I don't really follow how a tied-off weave would still remain functional in a stedding as there is no wielder or source for it to tap into.

 

I think the problem is RJ decided to make tying off weaves a thing but never explained how they can work.  You can plug into the mains or us a battery but in this case you switch the power off and the light stays on.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

This does appear to be the answer we're given but I find it confusing (as did BS in your post above).

 

How a tied off weave works is never really explained logically.  We know that channelling drains the user so however limitless the True Source is a wielder can only draw on a certain amount of it before  becoming exhausted. How Lanfear and Moghedien tie off shields on Asmodean and Liandrin that last seemingly indefinitely without any further input is unclear.  It suggests a permanent conduit to the source for the weave without any person present or any drain on the original weaver.  Why don't they do this all the time for a vast number of applications?  Or do they - with wards and keepings that occasionally need renewal or the wounds in Rand's side?  Is this what the standing flows from the AoL were: permanently tied-off weaves like a power grid that allowed their technology to operate reliably?

 

I'll take a punt that this free use of power for ever more is somehow possible because of the presence of The Source all around.  I don't really follow how a tied-off weave would still remain functional in a stedding as there is no wielder or source for it to tap into.

 

I think the problem is RJ decided to make tying off weaves a thing but never explained how they can work.  You can plug into the mains or us a battery but in this case you switch the power off and the light stays on.

When I think of weaves that are tied off, I imagine that they are no longer connected to the source at all. (Like knitting, when you "tie it off".)

If some weaves, like a mask of mirrors requires it to be "refueled" from time to time when it's tied, else disapear, then that might confirm that weaves that use spirit, use the "Humans" spirit as a "power source" to keep it active.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I want to say there's evidence in the books that imply channelers can move nearby "Elements" into their weaves. Like moving the energy from nearby flames to make a bigger flame somewhere else.

If that's true and I'm not just mixing up my fantasy, perhaps tied off weaves that only use the natural "elements", can't be fueled by their surroundings, because that would require a channeler to actively "direct the flow of energy" into it? *With the caveat of some very specialized weaves that could be made to run off some static source of energy?
Where as, weaves that use spirit can be "hooked" into a human's "soul". to keep it powered.

[Stedding Tofu]

22 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

When I think of weaves that are tied off, I imagine that they are no longer connected to the source at all. (Like knitting, when you "tie it off".)

 

This does seem to be it but a channeler could theoretically "tie a hundred knots" a day every day for hundreds of years.  Could one channeler shield 1,000 others by tying off shields on them one after the other, shields that last seemingly for ever?

 

I think the idea of tying off weaves was a mistake (unless they dissipate quickly) but it's probably something we should not look at too closely, magic being, well, magic 🙂

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

This does seem to be it but a channeler could theoretically "tie a hundred knots" a day every day for hundreds of years.  Could one channeler shield 1,000 others by tying off shields on them one after the other, shields that last seemingly for ever?

 

I think the idea of tying off weaves was a mistake (unless they dissipate quickly) but it's probably something we should not look at too closely, magic being, well, magic 🙂

Given what we know of shields, someone could definitely shield a thousand others, but my guess is some would eventually break out.

Though, maybe if someone used the Choedan Kal to shield someone... But at that point you'd be better off just slicing and dicing their connections to the power... 

[Aan-Alone]

Based on Rand slowly opening tied-off shields while contorted like a Bavarian pretzel, and how every use of the OP is described as a 'weave'...I envisioned tied-off weaves as hella-complicated knots where the threads in the knot somehow had the ability to slowly untie themselves. The more complex the knot, the longer this would take.

[wotfan4472]

When Rand threatened to call lightning down on Far Madding, he stated the Guardians blocked the One Power only.

 

That comment means, he was about to draw on the True Power to do that attack, and use the Choedan Kal with it. The Guardians would not detect its use, or stop it.

 

A stedding by comparison, would stop that True Power attack as well, since they affect Shadowspawn, and they were made by both the One Power and True Power.

 

I also think that a stedding would neutralise a tied off weave, and as a result, I disagree with Brandon when he said a well would work in a stedding. I suspect any weaves used inside by tapping a well would not work, it would just either drain the well on the spot, or not work at all. 

[Mailman]

On 2/23/2024 at 2:50 AM, wotfan4472 said:

When Rand threatened to call lightning down on Far Madding, he stated the Guardians blocked the One Power only.

 

That comment means, he was about to draw on the True Power to do that attack, and use the Choedan Kal with it. The Guardians would not detect its use, or stop it.

 

A stedding by comparison, would stop that True Power attack as well, since they affect Shadowspawn, and they were made by both the One Power and True Power.

 

I also think that a stedding would neutralise a tied off weave, and as a result, I disagree with Brandon when he said a well would work in a stedding. I suspect any weaves used inside by tapping a well would not work, it would just either drain the well on the spot, or not work at all. 

The only item that was able to act as an angreal for the True Power was Callandor. Remember Moridin's surprise when he picked it up in the cave. Also Rand used the lure of the Choedan Kal to resist the pull of the True Power which would not have been the case if it could have been used to draw that power through it.

 

The stedding to the best of my knowledge where not created with the True Power at all.

Edited February 26 by Mailman

[wotfan4472]

That is correct about Callandor. I just remember the access key glowing, and his comment on the Guardian only blocking the One Power.

 

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

That is correct about Callandor. I just remember the access key glowing, and his comment on the Guardian only blocking the One Power.

 

I just assumed he was going to start throwing stuff into Far Madding. With the key he could throw a mountain into the city. For me it's the same loophole as Mat's medallion.

[wotfan4472]

The loophole applies to saidar, remember? Far Madding's Guardian completely blocked saidin in any fashion.

 

Wells of saidin would not work like the saidar ones did. The True Power, however was unrestricted, because only a few people knew of it, and all of them were either using it, or had access to it in the Age Of Legends, and they all served the Dark One.

 

Callandor is the exception to that, but only because it was unexplained how it could interact with the True Power that way, or how anyone could make it to do what it did without the Pattern.

 

The only things a stedding could not block was anything done that the weaves started, like a storm, or an earthquake.

Edited March 1 by wotfan4472

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

The loophole applies to saidar, remember? Far Madding's Guardian completely blocked saidin in any fashion.

 

Wells of saidin would not work like the saidar ones did. The True Power, however was unrestricted, because only a few people knew of it, and all of them were either using it, or had access to it in the Age Of Legends, and they all served the Dark One.

 

Callandor is the exception to that, but only because it was unexplained how it could interact with the True Power that way, or how anyone could make it to do what it did without the Pattern.

 

The only things a stedding could not block was anything done that the weaves started, like a storm, or an earthquake.

I am not sure that the guardian blocks Saidan in the manner you state, however it is not relevant to the statement I made if Rand throws a rock, boulder or mountain from outside the guardian that object maintains it's velocity independently of the power. Allowing Rand to easily obliterate Far Madding without ever needing to engage with the dampening effects of the guardians.

 

There is zero knowledge of how the guardian would have been impacted by the True Power, my belief is that it would not have affected it but that is pure conjecture. The fact that the access key lit up indicates to me that Rand intended to use Saidan.

[wotfan4472]

It is a total block on Saidin as the books present it. Far Madding is the one place where modern feminism as we know it is a thing. Which is a justified stance considering saidin for most of the city's existence is a source of madness whenever it is accessed.

 

It is not an anti One Power city. That would be Amador in Amadicia. It is an anti Saidin city, that also just so happens to mistrust Saidar as well. Which is why women can move around the city with monitoring, but men are totally restricted.

 

If it was that way, Nyneave would not be able to tap her well to fool the Council into thinking it was Damer doing the channeling.

 

It might fail with a Saidin well, we just do not have any indication on that, because no male channeler survived the Age Of Legends to pass on their knowledge, until Asmodean did with Rand, 3000 years later.

 

All we know, is that Cadsuaine knew of the flaw in the Guardians, and exploited it to save the Dragon Reborn from captivity under Elaida.

Edited March 3 by wotfan4472

[Mailman]

19 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

It is a total block on Saidin as the books present it. Far Madding is the one place where modern feminism as we know it is a thing. Which is a justified stance considering saidin for most of the city's existence is a source of madness whenever it is accessed.

 

It is not an anti One Power city. That would be Amador in Amadicia. It is an anti Saidin city, that also just so happens to mistrust Saidar as well. Which is why women can move around the city with monitoring, but men are totally restricted.

 

If it was that way, Nyneave would not be able to tap her well to fool the Council into thinking it was Damer doing the channeling.

 

It might fail with a Saidin well, we just do not have any indication on that, because no male channeler survived the Age Of Legends to pass on their knowledge, until Asmodean did with Rand, 3000 years later.

 

All we know, is that Cadsuaine knew of the flaw in the Guardians, and exploited it to save the Dragon Reborn from captivity under Elaida.

I can't really agree with you on almost anything above.

 

The books do not give an indication one way or the other about a well being able to use saidan as it is only the 2 ladies that have them, but it would be highly likely that the same vulnerability is likely to exist in both. There is also no mention to the best of my knowledge that the wells themselves are unable to hold one or both powers as they are both under the control of the ladies.

 

All of wot civilization is anti saidan since the breaking till after the cleansing. The majority of the rest are distrusting of saidar at best and openly hostile at worst. The only thing setting Madding apart is the guardian in that respect.

 

Cadsuane knew of the flaw because she owned the well.

 

Far madding is not what I would consider an example of modern feminism. Where in our modern world are females allowed to physically beat males?

 

Men are also not totally restricted the traitors moved freely about the city as did Fain and Toram all without female chaperones.

Edited March 4 by Mailman

[wotfan4472]

There are some cultures that allow that.

 

Samoan culture and Tongan culture are two of them. Both are reflected in Far Madding and the Wise Ones in their personalities and how they react to each other. 

Edited March 4 by wotfan4472

[Mailman]

13 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

There are some cultures that allow that.

 

Samoan culture and Tongan culture are two of them. Both are reflected in Far Madding and the Wise Ones in their personalities and how they react to each other. 

And Somoan and Tongan culture are examples of modern feminism.