Who made the better grade? WOT or ROP

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

But who is a proven fantasy screen writer? Who has done it really well ever? I can’t really think of a really strong fantasy series, GOT is the closest but that feels more and more that the highs where sheer dumb luck lol. 

It doesn't have to be a good fantasy writer.  But a good writer would be excellent.

[Gypsum]

Aaron Sorkin and The West Wing writing team? Depends on your definition of "fantasy." 🤪

 

Good writers of any genre would be a start.

[Scarloc99]

52 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

Which world? Forgotten Realms? Ebberon? Grey Hawk? What's cannon in D&D?

 

According to WoTC, the Drizzt and Elminster books are not cannon to D&D forgotten realms. 

 

In most of those cases, the movie/show fans out number the source material fans, and the whining about every little detail is drowned out by the Movie lovers admiring America's Ass. 

The movies are in forgotten realms I believe, Drizzit as a character is cannon, what wizards have done is an about turn on the lore, I imagine because they have there own new plans for drow in one DnD and don’t want to mix up anything they play test with what he is writing. Or they had a campaign book ready to go that will be similar to, but different from his drow to ensure we go out and buy it. 
 

WOT the non book fans outnumber the book fans easily. If you look at viewing numbers for WOT worldwide and compare to the probable numbers who have bought the books it looks like many many more non book lovers watched it, but, my argument is about lovers of the source material. In most forums they love the boys while pointing out the big differences. 

[Scarloc99]

1 minute ago, Gypsum said:

Aaron Sorkin and The West Wing writing team? Depends on your definition of "fantasy." 🤪

 

Good writers of any genre would be a start.

Ok I hated this but then, a series of walk and talk scenes through Tar Valon, the waste, or any city. 
 

“Sammael I assure you Rand was just here talking to Morraine and Lan, 

 

They where talking, I mean they could be miles away by now” 

 

or a tv show focused on the politics of tear and tar Valon with the last battle going on off screen :). 

This is now a show I could get into lol. 

[Scarloc99]

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

It doesn't have to be a good fantasy writer.  But a good writer would be excellent.

Problem with tv shows nowadays is that it is a writing room. The days of a single voice, even the show runner, having an overall say is gone. Thinking about it BSG might have been the last show that did that, show runner also lead writer, not sure how it is done on westworld though. 

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Problem with tv shows nowadays is that it is a writing room. The days of a single voice, even the show runner, having an overall say is gone. Thinking about it BSG might have been the last show that did that, show runner also lead writer, not sure how it is done on westworld though. 

You're probably right.  They may get back to needing good writer/s when the best shows are the most watched.  I've seen many comments on these forums about 'It's all we've got' or 'At least it's something'.  Which gives me the feeling that they are settling.  If they genuinely like a show - cool.  If they don't - why waste your time?  If people would walk away from sub-par, poorly written shows - eventually they will turn it around.

 

But if people keep watching it because it is fantasy, or rationalize that this is the best they will ever get - they are correct...

[SinisterDeath]

20 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The movies are in forgotten realms I believe, Drizzit as a character is cannon, what wizards have done is an about turn on the lore, I imagine because they have there own new plans for drow in one DnD and don’t want to mix up anything they play test with what he is writing. Or they had a campaign book ready to go that will be similar to, but different from his drow to ensure we go out and buy it. 
 

WOT the non book fans outnumber the book fans easily. If you look at viewing numbers for WOT worldwide and compare to the probable numbers who have bought the books it looks like many many more non book lovers watched it, but, my argument is about lovers of the source material. In most forums they love the boys while pointing out the big differences. 

Drizzt, and company "exist" in D&D more as an "Easter egg" to the fantasy novels then any real lore. 

 

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/08/dd-wotc-declares-that-novels-arent-canon-for-5th-edition-and-vice-versa.html

 

Tldr: What happened in the Drizzt books, are only Cannon in Drizzt books. What's cannon in 5e, is Cannon in 5e.

 

So when WoTC was defending the published 5e books describing all Drow as Evil, they shot themselves in the nuts by making the Drow in the Drizzt books non-cannon in 5e. (R.A Salvatore basically wrote the Drow as not inherently evil, but the majority live in an Evil society. E.g. Nurture vs Nature)

 

So the question is still, what's Cannon Forgotten Realms in D&D 5e for the movie? 

 

Are they licensing content from Salvatore and Greenwood as cannon lore?

 

Or are they only licensing content from the Players Guide, DMs Guide, Monster Manual, and some Of the Adventure Modules? 

 

From an adaptation point of view, we either disregard all the fantasy novels, and only the published 5e books, or vice versa.

 

 

As for the Boys.

I dunno, I've read a 50/50 split among the comic readers.

 

Then you have the slightly trollish nature of hyping up an episode for shock value, like we all did for the Red Wedding. That's something RoP and WoT are going to miss out on.. Unless they include Tylin. 

 

[Elder_Haman]

On 12/31/2022 at 7:29 PM, DojoToad said:

Accidentally killing anyone would have accomplished the same. 

I don't think this is true. But I still think it was a miss by the writers. Instead of making up a wife for him to kill, they could have had Perrin kill Master Luhan on accident, which would have been an even better set up for Perrin's internal conflict. The writers missed quite a few opportunities like this in S1. (Another obvious one would have been to have Lan know that Nyn was sneaking up on him which would have subtracted nothing from Nyn, but would have added tremendously to Lan's badassery).

 

That being said, writers can and do improve from one season to the next. In fact, some of Rafe's other shows made big leaps in S2 quality. Both "Chuck" and "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D" were noticeably better in S2. I get some of the angst about S1, but it's nowhere near the complete disaster some people seem to think it was.

 

[DojoToad]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't think this is true. But I still think it was a miss by the writers. Instead of making up a wife for him to kill, they could have had Perrin kill Master Luhan on accident, which would have been an even better set up for Perrin's internal conflict. The writers missed quite a few opportunities like this in S1. (Another obvious one would have been to have Lan know that Nyn was sneaking up on him which would have subtracted nothing from Nyn, but would have added tremendously to Lan's badassery).

Yes! 👍

 

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

That being said, writers can and do improve from one season to the next. In fact, some of Rafe's other shows made big leaps in S2 quality. Both "Chuck" and "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D" were noticeably better in S2. I get some of the angst about S1, but it's nowhere near the complete disaster some people seem to think it was.

 

Glad to hear his previous teams improved - hopefully he can keep that trend going.

 

There are degrees of disaster.  It was not a complete one for me - but near enough.  There were aspects of the show I liked.  But the overall grade was a fail for me.  I know some folks can't understand my dislike; likewise, I can't understand why others liked it so much.  So subjective...

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

I know some folks can't understand my dislike; likewise, I can't understand why others liked it so much.  So subjective...

Indeed. I guess my enjoyment of a thing does not depend on others (especially people I don't know) enjoying that thing.

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Indeed. I guess my enjoyment of a thing does not depend on others (especially people I don't know) enjoying that thing.

For sure, I do enjoy discussing it though to see the other perspectives.

[Elder_Haman]

47 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

For sure, I do enjoy discussing it though to see the other perspectives.

Likewise.

[expat]

10 hours ago, DojoToad said:

For sure, I do enjoy discussing it though to see the other perspectives.

That is my criteria. I don't care if someone liked or disliked the show.  The important point is if their posts lead to interesting discussions.  

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't think this is true. But I still think it was a miss by the writers. Instead of making up a wife for him to kill, they could have had Perrin kill Master Luhan on accident, which would have been an even better set up for Perrin's internal conflict. The writers missed quite a few opportunities like this in S1. (Another obvious one would have been to have Lan know that Nyn was sneaking up on him which would have subtracted nothing from Nyn, but would have added tremendously to Lan's badassery).

 

That being said, writers can and do improve from one season to the next. In fact, some of Rafe's other shows made big leaps in S2 quality. Both "Chuck" and "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D" were noticeably better in S2. I get some of the angst about S1, but it's nowhere near the complete disaster some people seem to think it was.

 

In EOTW Nyn sneaks up on Lan, it is one of the first moments where she gets his respect. It is a slightly different scene but it is there. It is a one line moment that many (including me until I re read it) seem to forget. 

Master Luhan has 2 issues, first he is a huge man, I always pictured him as just immense and strong, he is not going to be "accidentally" killed by Perrin so easily, second he has his own important thread later on when Perrin rescues the Luhans from the whitecloaks. That whole scene becomes very different if it is combined with Perrin telling Luhans wife that it was him that killed master Luhan. We drag up that whole thing all over again and it impacts how she treats him, or we just change that scene again. Everything has ripple effects. 

I agree Rafe can improve, as a positive pete I like to always try and hope for the best, although I would say that both Chuck and Agents of shield had started in a much stronger place and then just got better largely because budgets etc increased. Also Rafe was not as heavily involved in the major decision making on either show, he was just one in a room of writers. A very similar but very very different comparison can be made for anyone who knows or remembers pro wrestling int eh 90's. Vince Russo was a writer in WWE with people above him editing his ideas, who then went off to become the effective Show Runner in WcW, at which point you realised that he needed someone above him to act as a filter and actually find those diamonds in the all the rubbish he came up with because when left on his own, he was rubbish. 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[DojoToad]

16 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In EOTW Nyn sneaks up on Lan, it is one of the first moments where she gets his respect. It is a slightly different scene but it is there. It is a one line moment that many (including me until I re read it) seem to forget. 

 

The scene in EotW has Nynaeve tracking Lan and Moiraine - which is what impressed Lan.  She was still on the outskirts of camp when Moiraine noticed her.  Still impressive (and worthy of respect), but a far cry from sneaking up on Lan and putting a blade to his throat.

 

16 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Master Luhan has 2 issues, first he is a huge man, I always pictured him as just immense and strong, he is not going to be "accidentally" killed by Perrin so easily, second he has his own important thread later on when Perrin rescues the Luhans from the whitecloaks. That whole scene becomes very different if it is combined with Perrin telling Luhans wife that it was him that killed master Luhan. We drag up that whole thing all over again and it impacts how she treats him, or we just change that scene again. Everything has ripple effects. 

Perrin is immense and strong as well.  A swing from Perrin in desperate defense of his life (adrenalin pumping) would bite deep.  And what makes you think that Master Luhan's thread survives?  IIRC he is never introduced as a character in the show.  Even if Haral had been introduced, they already changed the first 'captured by whitecloaks' scenario to change the rescue focus from Nynaeve and Lan sneaking in to Egwene taking care of business.  Everything has ripple effects.

 

16 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I agree Rafe can improve, as a positive pete I like to always try and hope for the best, although I would say that both Chuck and Agents of shield had started in a much stronger place and then just got better largely because budgets etc increased. Also Rafe was not as heavily involved in the major decision making on either show, he was just one in a room of writers.

 

Being a positive Pete is no more or less realistic than being a negative Nellie - different sides of the same coin in my opinion.  I didn't realize that Rafe was taking such a large step up when taking the helm of WoT.

 

16 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

A very similar but very very different comparison can be made for anyone who knows or remembers pro wrestling int eh 90's. Vince Russo was a writer in WWE with people above him editing his ideas, who then went off to become the effective Show Runner in WcW, at which point you realised that he needed someone above him to act as a filter and actually find those diamonds in the all the rubbish he came up with because when left on his own, he was rubbish. 

 

Explains why he seems to be in so far over his head.  I understand giving the guy a chance, but Rafe is drowning.  Showrunner duties are beyond him - including dealing with COVID and Barney leaving.

[expat]

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

The scene in EotW has Nynaeve tracking Lan and Moiraine - which is what impressed Lan.  She was still on the outskirts of camp when Moiraine noticed her.  Still impressive (and worthy of respect), but a far cry from sneaking up on Lan and putting a blade to his throat.

In the book he was casually talking to Moriaine when Nynaeve snuck up close to them.  In the show he was in (reflective) pain from Moiraine's wound and frantic about finding a way to save her (and himself).  Myself, I didn't perform my job as well when in great pain or frantic about something.  Maybe you expect Lan to be superhuman so his extreme circumstances wouldn't affect him, but I'm willing to give him and the show a little latitude here.  Is the fact that the small departure from the book humanizes Lan the problem?    

 

[DojoToad]

58 minutes ago, expat said:

In the book he was casually talking to Moriaine when Nynaeve snuck up close to them.  In the show he was in (reflective) pain from Moiraine's wound and frantic about finding a way to save her (and himself).  Myself, I didn't perform my job as well when in great pain or frantic about something.  Maybe you expect Lan to be superhuman so his extreme circumstances wouldn't affect him, but I'm willing to give him and the show a little latitude here.  Is the fact that the small departure from the book humanizes Lan the problem?    

 

His bond makes him superhuman to an extent - at least in the books.  Warders can keep doing their jobs when ordinary men give up due to pain, emotion (being frantic), exhaustion, injury, or whatever.  So yes, Lan being humanized is the problem.  There are plenty of other characters that can be human - warders don't need to be.  I would call that a large departure from the book but understand if you don't agree.

Edited January 4, 2023 by DojoToad

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, expat said:

Maybe you expect Lan to be superhuman so his extreme circumstances wouldn't affect him, but I'm willing to give him and the show a little latitude here.  Is the fact that the small departure from the book humanizes Lan the problem?

No. That's not my problem at all. This scene didn't humanize Lan in any relatable way. Sure he was upset about what happened to Moiraine. But never having established Lan's preternatural awareness as a strength, it isn't as if the audience could conclude that his pain was causing him to react slowly or abnormally.

 

What bothers me is that it was a missed opportunity to build Lan's character as the best of the Warders. We have yet to see Lan do anything impressive. Apart from the Bond, we haven't seen Warders do anything impressive apart from being better than average fighters. Here they had the chance to show that - even at far from 100% - Lan is still able to detect a hostile approaching from yards away. And they could have done it in a way that called back to the source material without exactly duplicating it. But they left it on the table for no real purpose.

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

They have shown that Lan rides twice as far and sleeps half as much as regular people, in the same way the books does. They show he feels their Aes Sedai's pain or other emotions and can track them using the bond. They show that they have the ability to sense shadowspawn. And be really good fighters, yes.

Maybe in the show turning of the pattern, that is the limit of Warder powers. It's more than regular humans can do.  Doing more than that isn't part of Lan's character, it's part of a powerset.  Powers aren't character.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Maybe in the show turning of the pattern, that is the limit of Warder powers.

Why make this change? What is gained? And what is lost by changing this sequence to more closely match the source material?

[WhiteVeils]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

Why make this change? What is gained? And what is lost by changing this sequence to more closely match the source material?

 

I can't say for sure this is the case, but it is possible.
As to why...because the more 'superpowers' a character has, the more those powers require an explanation. And also, the more chance either that the powers get used as a 'get out of jail free' card, circumventing a tense situation, or, alternatively do /not/ get used to circumvent that type of situation leaving the audience questioning why the warder does not use their powers to circumvent the situation.   Finally, giving Lan all the superpowers at the start means that the other characters (specifically, the EF5 around which the show is meant to be built) can't show off their growth and development, because Lan will do it first.

 

In the book, you can have, basically, infinitely many trollocs with infinitely many kinds of powers.  And character abilities fade in and fade out as needed.  Lan can detect a Fade from far off in one scene, and then in another be completely blindsided by it, and, because it is the book, we don't question it.  It is not a  consistent power.  But in the show, this variation leads to inconsistencies, that, because the season is shorter, and the viewers are not book fans, are more likely to be picked up on and pointed out.

 

To exaggerate to prove a point.  Let's say Lan has the ability to quickly kill any 5 trollocs instantly. Suddenly, any time Lan is present, they have to put more than 5 trollocs up there to give anyone else stuff to do.

 

A better question, I think, is what is gained by keeping the extra powers? How does it serve the entire series to have Lan have the superpowers he already has AND additional ones? If it does not, then there is no reason to keep them and use precious time (and dramatic tension) to develop and explain them.

 

That's the whole thing about doing the series at all.  You can't think of it as 'what do we cut out?', and the default is keep.  To do this thing at all, the writers all have to be thinking 'what do we need to keep to get to the conclusion we want', and cut the rest. That was the Peter Jackson approach that he used with Lord of the Rings, and that's been the benchmark for all adaptations since.  Find what is essential, and then find or create what you need to glue those essential pieces together to make a cohesive and logical story with no holes.

[Scarloc99]

I find myself feeling that we should not compare any of the characters to how they are in book 1. Book 1 is not Robert Jordan’s characters, it is a collection of fantasy tropes that RJ knew he needed to write in order to get published. The characters change some subtly and others drastically from books one and 2 and not for story reasons but because RJ writes them differently. 
 

Book 3 onwards Lan is far more emotional and far deeper, and that is the Lan we get in season 1. Now in terms of fighting prowes, we haven’t really seen any warders doing any really hard fighting. A ragtag bunch of soldiers does not a strong enemy make. I think I’m season 3 when we see Lan going toe to toe with the aiel in sparring sessions is when we will see how deadly he is. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

I can't say for sure this is the case, but it is possible.
As to why...because the more 'superpowers' a character has, the more those powers require an explanation. And also, the more chance either that the powers get used as a 'get out of jail free' card, circumventing a tense situation, or, alternatively do /not/ get used to circumvent that type of situation leaving the audience questioning why the warder does not use their powers to circumvent the situation.   Finally, giving Lan all the superpowers at the start means that the other characters (specifically, the EF5 around which the show is meant to be built) can't show off their growth and development, because Lan will do it first.

He should do it first.  He is fully grown into his powers and knows how to use them to maximum effect.  The EF5 are just beginning to discover what they can do and what their powers mean.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

A better question, I think, is what is gained by keeping the extra powers? How does it serve the entire series to have Lan have the superpowers he already has AND additional ones? If it does not, then there is no reason to keep them and use precious time (and dramatic tension) to develop and explain them.

Because if Lan keeps all his book powers, that were so amazing to the EF5 in the beginning, the growth of the 'kids' is accentuated that much more.  Eventually, they  outstrip him.  He is still an awesome superman, but they are more!

Edited January 4, 2023 by DojoToad

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

the more 'superpowers' a character has, the more those powers require an explanation.

Let's be clear what we are talking about here - an ability to be aware of one's surroundings and hear someone before they get behind you with a knife. That's barely a 'power' at all. It merely establishes that warders are disciplined and aware of their surroundings. No 'explanation' is required for something like this.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

what is gained by keeping the extra powers? 

A very quick, show-not-tell moment establishing that Lan (and by extension other warders) are elite warriors who aren't easily taken unaware.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

If it does not, then there is no reason to keep them and use precious time (and dramatic tension) to develop and explain them.

I acknowledge that adaptation requires some things be cut, and others changed. I'm not offended by writers putting their own spin on things. For example, the Siuan/Moiraine change didn't bother me one bit because those choices will pay off later. This isn't either. It's simply a missed opportunity. Lan acknowledging Nynaeve's presence before she is able to get a knife to his throat wouldn't 'use precious time' or undercut any dramatic tension.

 

54 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Book 3 onwards Lan is far more emotional and far deeper, and that is the Lan we get in season 1.

I agree with this and am not trying to say that every choice they made with Lan was wrong. I quite liked the scream, for example. But in this particular instance, they missed a layup.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[expat]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Let's be clear what we are talking about here - an ability to be aware of one's surroundings and hear someone before they get behind you with a knife. That's barely a 'power' at all. It merely establishes that warders are disciplined and aware of their surroundings. No 'explanation' is required for something like this.

I don't think this ability is a superpower, but it does require focus and some level of concentration.  Lan is not Cmd. Data with autonomous sensors that cause an interrupt to his higher brain functions when something out of the ordinary happens.  I maybe alone, but I'm happy that he isn't Data, but only a well-trained man with some advantages bestowed by the bond.  I would hate him being portrayed as a robot, always at the peak level of power, regardless of the circumstances.

 

In the scene, he was in pain and his concentration was soley focused on how to save Moiraine (and himself) from death in a few hours.  He simply didn't have the necessary concentration needed to detect a (book defined) quiet tracker.  Is the difference of a few feet (especially when Moiraine called her out, not him) when at his normal alert level to arm length when extremely distracted really the hill to die on?  The book never specified how close she could have gotten to him before he detected her.