The metaphysics and internal consistency of the Wheel of Time - The Battle Above Falme

[SilentRoamer]

I have finished reading the Great Hunt a few days ago. Thoroughly enjoying my first re-read of the series. 

One thing I always loved about WoT were the Magic System and the metaphysics of the world. I loved the rules and the consistency of the One Power system, it always felt fully formed and fully fleshed out to me. 

 

On my re-read I am noticing some of the earlier differences before the One Power and metaphysical nature of WoT was more clearly defined. So far I have found the following, that while not necessarily inconsistent, stand slightly separate from the rigidity of the One Power and its internal mechanism and consistency:

 

• The Black Cords at the Eye of the World. 
• Using Tar Valon coins as tracking devices.
• The connection between Healer and Healed. 
• The time loop in the Great Hunt

 

Which brings me to the prophesized Battle above Falme - Rand vs. Ba'alzamon - are there any in world explanations for this? Or anyone have any ideas? My initial thoughts were Mask of Mirrors but from the Rand PoV it seems he is actually in the Sky or in a weird sort of holding place for physical reality. 

 

Any thoughts?

 

[Gypsum]

I reckoned it was some sort of alternate plane of reality, like tel'aran'rhiod (where people/wolves can float around in the sky) but not completely, but I also try to not think about the physics/metaphysics too hard. They are all pretty trippy!

 

I think in the first books, Jordan was making it up as he went, to some extent, and things like the tracker coins were needed as plot devices. As the series went on, he developed the system and gave it a bit more internal consistency.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Gypsum said:

I reckoned it was some sort of alternate plane of reality, like tel'aran'rhiod (where people/wolves can float around in the sky) but not completely, but I also try to not think about the physics/metaphysics too hard. They are all pretty trippy!

 

I think in the first books, Jordan was making it up as he went, to some extent, and things like the tracker coins were needed as plot devices. As the series went on, he developed the system and gave it a bit more internal consistency.

In the next book, Rand's fight in the Wall has similar mind/physics bending fights.
 
The later-explanation in "cannon" is that he was being led from one Dream Shard to the next, which allowed the creator of said dream shard the ability to create whatever physics they wanted in that shard.

Ishamael was very fond of his dreamshards.

I dunno if what happened in the sky above Falme was actually happening in a Dreamshard, nor if it's possible to "broadcast" what happens in a dreamshard in the sky.

Given Rand's ability over everything, it's possible that if they were fighting in a dreamshard, and he believed he was fighting in the sky, he simply manifested that fight above the city for all to see.

 

 

4 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

One thing I always loved about WoT were the Magic System and the metaphysics of the world. I loved the rules and the consistency of the One Power system, it always felt fully formed and fully fleshed out to me. 

What I love about WoT is that on the surface level it appears to have well defined rules. Almost like it's down to a science, with mathematical formulas for how things should work.

Yet when you really start digging, you begin to uncover that the rules might just be self imposed by "society"(inworld)  and they really don't know what the rules of the game are, but they've made their own and believe those are concrete.

We can explain away some of the inconsistency by stating that the Author (RJ) hadn't really fleshed out the system.

Or you can approach it from the angle of everything was planned and internally consistent from the Authors perspective, and most of the inconsistency we read is ambiguity from an unreliable narrator(s) who are trying to figure out how the world works.
 

[SilentRoamer]

@SinisterDeath That's a great point. 

 

I feel like this read I will understand the Dream Spikes a little better. The great thing is we are looking through the eyes of people with much less knowledge than the AoL and many of the things were not even fully understood then

The whole idea of the Ta'veren gives Jordan the ability to play fast and loose when he needed to. Ta'veren is plot legitimised authorial plot armour 🤣

I am really enjoying this second read because whilst I understand much of the metaphysics there is so much I have forgotten or didn't even consider before. Jordans writing is also really good - his characterisation and prose are impressing me. Show don't tell is a very apt description. 

 

[VooDooNut]

16 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

• Using Tar Valon coins as tracking devices.

 

I was under the impression the tracking coins were a one-off as well, but I just read this paragraph from Knife of Dreams, and it reminded me of the technique Moiraine used in EOTW.

Spoiler

Excerpt from Knife of Dreams: Chapter 16 The New Follower

 

"The weave she laid on Hark's belt buckle, his boots, his coat and breeches, was somewhat akin to that for the Warder bond, though much less complex. It would fade from clothing and boots in a few weeks, or months at best, but metal would hold a Finder forever. 'I've laid a weave on you, Master Hark. Now you can be found wherever you are.'"

 

[Andra]

3 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

I was under the impression the tracking coins were a one-off as well, but I just read this paragraph from Knife of Dreams, and it reminded me of the technique Moiraine used in EOTW.

  Reveal hidden contents

Excerpt from Knife of Dreams: Chapter 16 The New Follower

 

"The weave she laid on Hark's belt buckle, his boots, his coat and breeches, was somewhat akin to that for the Warder bond, though much less complex. It would fade from clothing and boots in a few weeks, or months at best, but metal would hold a Finder forever. 'I've laid a weave on you, Master Hark. Now you can be found wherever you are.'"

 

Yeah, it appears to be one of those things that is entirely consistent in-universe, it just isn't mentioned frequently.

Given the size and complexity of the world, and how much each Aes Sedai fights to maintain her own independence, it's not really surprising that we wouldn't hear more about it.

[VooDooNut]

7 hours ago, Andra said:

Yeah, it appears to be one of those things that is entirely consistent in-universe, it just isn't mentioned frequently.

Given the size and complexity of the world, and how much each Aes Sedai fights to maintain her own independence, it's not really surprising that we wouldn't hear more about it.

Fair point. I was just happy to see it pop up again.

[Kalessin]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:49 AM, Gypsum said:

I reckoned it was some sort of alternate plane of reality, like tel'aran'rhiod (where people/wolves can float around in the sky) but not completely, but I also try to not think about the physics/metaphysics too hard. They are all pretty trippy!

 

I think in the first books, Jordan was making it up as he went, to some extent, and things like the tracker coins were needed as plot devices. As the series went on, he developed the system and gave it a bit more internal consistency.

Well, from where I am sitting, it struck me that it resembled the dreamworld where Baalzamon dragged the three boys in EOTW. It is Baalzamon's dreamworld, like that dream Rand has of him on the way to Falme, where his burn marks are still on the chair when Rand wakes up.

 

Then later, in TDR, it struck me that Baalzamon may have made that dreamworld, but because Rand is so  much stronger in the Power and is Ta'veren into the bargain, Rand is imposing whatever happens in that dreamworld, on everyone else in the vicinity. Combine that with the sudden intrusion of the Heroes of the Horn, and naturally everybody notices him, whether they want to or not.

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Kalessin said:

Well, from where I am sitting, it struck me that it resembled the dreamworld where Baalzamon dragged the three boys in EOTW. It is Baalzamon's dreamworld, like that dream Rand has of him on the way to Falme, where his burn marks are still on the chair when Rand wakes up.

 

Then later, in TDR, it struck me that Baalzamon may have made that dreamworld, but because Rand is so  much stronger in the Power and is Ta'veren into the bargain, Rand is imposing whatever happens in that dreamworld, on everyone else in the vicinity. Combine that with the sudden intrusion of the Heroes of the Horn, and naturally everybody notices him, whether they want to or not.

I suspect that Falme exhibited something specific about the nature of the Horn and what it does.

 

We know the Heroes all live in the World of Dreams awaiting rebirth or being called up.  It's also implied that the Heroes aren't touched by weapons or channeling when they appear, and can do things (like "riding down clouds") that don't happen in the waking world.  But they very much do affect things themselves.

 

It would make sense if the Horn projects a portion of Tel'aran'rhiod into the waking world, and that Ba'alzamon piggybacked onto that projection to fight Rand in the sky.  Note that he doesn't show up until after the Horn is sounded.

 

As far as Rand and Ba'alzamon's battle in Tear, it's just something of the nature of TAR - which we learn a lot more about later.  We know that Ishy is adept at manipulating the Dream.  Almost certainly more adept than any other male Forsaken.  We also know that Rand eventually becomes moderately adept at it (never as adept as Perrin becomes) mostly by sheer willpower.

 

All of the weirdness we see in their battle happens inside the Dream, not in the waking world.

[Sabio]

The fight appearing was the Pattern announcing the Dragon was back.  I think Taim mentioned seeing it right before he was thrown off his horse and captured.  And that was in Saldea.  So it could be in a place Ishy made but the pattern doing it's own thing to announce the Dragon.  I suspect as Andra said that it was a connection to the Horn being sounded and the heroes coming back that did it.  It must be a first time thing since the Rand and Falme fights are connected.  But you don't see this when the Horn is sounded for the second time at the Last Battle where just the heroes return.