How would YOU handle the Taim - Black Tower Problem

[wvlr]

If you were Rand or Logain, since we are pretty sure Logain will do it. Logain already has an advantage since his group has bonded the 51 AS. But will that be enough? What other "tools/mechanisms" could he use, that RJ has provided in the books.

[Guest Barmacral]

I think that Logain will be pushed into a confrontation with Taim, and won't do anything to "Deal" with the issue further, as Rand has said not to.

 

In that respect I'm not sure that I'd do anything to deal with the Taim situation beyond maybe 'slipping something into his drink' because there would be too much backlash and damage from the students that Taim personally trains.

[BrainFireBob]

Personally? Something in the wine.

 

In story? Taim attacks whomever, and Logain's men begin to assassinate them using commando tactics. They can't go head to head with Taim's men- unlike Taim's men, head-to-head is not the only way they know how to fight. Much like Rand, if shielded by someone who's gloating in their face, they'd sock'em in the nose while reaching for the Source. Can't channel if you can't see!

[Luckers]

Well, personally, if it were me, i would go for a raid at Taim's palace. You know, four in the morning, moving with inverted shields pre-woven, and wrapped in inverted light. Taim's largest weakness is that he sits in the open, with all of his followers around him.

 

The problem with that is two-fold. One, it would likely be too successful, and RJ needs all the darkfriend channelers he can find and two, it doesn't really provide as amusing a show for the reader. Also Logain's not so terribly talented with the 'subtle'.

 

Brainfire Bob's suggestion also seems plausible, depending on access to the stores, and so forth.

[wvlr]

So far, I see two possible ways to handle Taim. These will most likely NOT be used by RJ but they are things that I would do if I was Rand/Logain.

 

1. Tamper with the cooks and feed Taim's men Forkroot at a meal just before an attack with Logain's circle aided Asha'men.

 

2. Send a couple "well" aided AS or Asha'men to FM to "borrow" the ter'angele there that cuts off the Power. Then take it near the BT and put it back into use there. Then send his Ariel in to round them all up.

 

Of course both these plans would require some more in depth planning and coordination. The second would be the best "if" the ter'angele is moveable.

[Guest Barmacral]

2. Send a couple "well" aided AS or Asha'men to FM to "borrow" the ter'angele there that cuts off the Power. Then take it near the BT and put it back into use there. Then send his Ariel in to round them all up.

 

They are NOT movable, and considering that you would not be able to channel in them, it would take months if they were movable to get them to the Black Tower. Not to mention that you'd have to get them away from Far Madding's Counsil first. I hefty feat for somebody who can only use swords and needs to get it over a bridge.

[Kison]

Theory on what will happen : Rand will "die", switch bodies with Moridin. People think he's dead. Logain thinks he's in charge. He gets rid of Taim.

 

What I would do : Get rid of him? I think it's odd that Rand is just about the only one who doesn't consider there being a problem with Taim. The thing is that Taim has caused huge issues in the Black Tower, because a huge amount of the Asha'man are his followers.

[BrainFireBob]

Rand knows there's a problem with Taim, there are three reasons he hasn't dealt with it:

 

1) Taim has done an excellent/satisfactory job

 

2) There's no time to deal with Taim with Tarmon Gai'don looming

 

3) Taim's not important enough in the grand scheme of things to Rand's mind.

[StudentJoe]

What would I do, I create a full circle. they have enough AS to do it, and isntantly burn the BT to the ground, and a few feet below it.

 

Then I would rebuild somewhere else perhaps along a river route. A Circle that big could wip out the tower before they new what was happening, ever fallower of taims would die as well as the man himself most likely.

[Razor]

I like the forkroot idea.

Then have each of the Ashmen swear on the oath rod to eliminate the possibility of an Ashman being black.

[wvlr]

They are NOT movable' date=' and considering that you would not be able to channel in them, it would take months if they were movable to get them to the Black Tower. Not to mention that you'd have to get them away from Far Madding's Counsil first. I hefty feat for somebody who can only use swords and needs to get it over a bridge.[/quote']

 

1. In the building of the BT I think that the Asha'men move stuff that is much larger.

2. In the WH we find that it IS possible to channel in them, if you have a "well", which is what I said. If they have enough "well" to create a "Gateway", I think that they could move them very quickly, without permission.

 

What would I do' date=' I create a full circle. they have enough AS to do it, and isntantly burn the BT to the ground, and a few feet below it.

quote']

 

Not a bad Idea - except that there are a lot of Asha'men there that are not part of Taim's Inner Group. Like the ones posted at the gate that the Red Adja sees when they go to request permission to Bond Asha'men at the end of aKoD. I think that Taim only has about 50 to 100 in his Special group, but don't quote me on that.

[Guest Barmacral]

First: You have to find a well that is strong enough to make a gateway large enough for the Ter'angreal long enough to get it through, something which I don't believe Nyneave or Cadsuane has.

Second: The Ter'Angreal requires a large amount of strength to lift, with or without the power, as it is a very large item. So now you either need a few extremely strong people with the power, or a large amount of strong people without the power, or a very large amount of weak power users with wells.

 

None of these situations are feasible. Sure technically they may be able to do so, but realistically, the ter'angreal cannot be moved, and nobody in Randland has the capability to make it movable.

 

As it is, I suspect that that ter'angreal was made at the exact spot where it sits, and has never moved at any point in time.

[Mat is the Boss]

Callandor can only be used safely in a circle consisting of one man, and two woman. Since Logain has bonded two Aes Sedai, and Rand will be using the remaining Choedan Kal, I`ve always assumed that Logain will use Callandor during Tarmon Gaidon. And I doubt that Taim will be dealt with before Tarmon Gaidon begins

[DragonSpawn]

If I were Rand I would not waste someone as experienced and powerful as Taim and just kill him on a flimsy suspicion he might be a darkfriend. If I started killing anyone I suspected of being a darkfriend half the loyal Aes Sedai and god knows how many others fall in that category after a while.

 

I would merely keep him busy. Always command and send him to do the dirty work at the forefront of the battlefields. So that he never has the time to sit back in the BT and plot but is always busy. Best way to utilize someone as valuable as Taim. And if he happens to die in a rendevous with the enemy by a stray arrow, well also one problem less.

 

One has to be incredibly shortsighted to throw away a knife as sharp as Taim when one can still use it.

[Luckers]

Your right that the suspicion shouldn't be counted cause. But the issue is that the suspicion SHOULD have been looked into. Or at least addressed. Rand dismissed it out of hand, and tactically thats unwise.

[DragonSpawn]

Your right that the suspicion shouldn't be counted cause. But the issue is that the suspicion SHOULD have been looked into. Or at least addressed. Rand dismissed it out of hand' date=' and tactically thats unwise.[/quote']

 

Yes. However people would delude themselves if they believe Logain is more powerful then Taim. From what we have seen so far Taim is almost as strong as Rand himself, and shows a very extensive knowledge in weaves and tricks with the power (including stuff Rand did not know, such as how to test a man for the ability to channel). Also Rand respected Taim enough that he always gripped his angreal tightly whenever in Taim's presence, showing that clearly Rand was intimidated by Taim to a certain degree powerwise. Honestly the only chance Logain would have against him is if he absorbs as much as he can from Rand while he is close to him and use those weaves to the surprise of Taim.

 

My point is that especially now. Where Rand needs everyone he can get the last thing he should do is get rid of Taim. Taim has proven himself adept at all tasks thrown at him, the same can't be said of Logain.

 

Taim managed to build a powerful functioning organization up from scratch which is almost rivalling the White Tower in less then a year. Also Taim showed more success in everything he and Logain both showed similarities in. They both got captured by Aes Sedai, however Logain got captured and gentled meekly whereas Taim overthrew his Aes Sedai guards and killed them. (I presume something similar to Rand happened, some of his loyal dragonsworn surprised the convoy and he used the distraction to break the knots ala Rand at Dumai). Also Taim was undefeated in the battle field, he only fell through the wheel of time pushing aside all other false Dragons and him being struck by lightning and falling to the ground in the middle of a battle he was winning.

 

 

Yet I recognise that Taim is anything but trustworthy. Preferably in times of peace you would keep a man like him out of any position of power. However in the times now he is made for them. So Rand should at least misuse or abuse Taim by sending him to deal with one problem after the next. Send Taim to raid the Shaido, attack the rebels. Do observations in Seanchan with detailed notes on the goings of the nation. Send him as an emmisiary with some Aes Sedai to Shara, etc.. Rand is making the mistake of leaving someone like Taim without work. He should keep him busy to the last.

[Luckers]

I disagree, at this late stage in the situation the last thing Rand can do is dismiss any indication that Taim might be a darkfriend. I'm not saying that he should have run off an executed Taim, but that he should have listened to Logain at the very least, and likely he should have set someone to look into Logain's claims.

 

His failure to do so is almost criminal negligence in a leader.

 

Rand is making the mistake of leaving someone like Taim without work. He should keep him busy to the last.

 

Taim is a darkfriend... Rand cannot use him, the risk of what Taim might do in the meantime is too high.

 

And i disagree with your summary of Taim's ability. Taim is blunt and shortsighted. Every action he has made has been hamfisted. The attack on Demira? The attack on the palace? The attack on the manor. The first resulted in Rand having 9 Aes Sedai swear to him, the second resulted in the cleansing of the Taint and the third resulted in the loss of a hundred thousand trollocs in an endevour that only served the purpose of reminding Rand of the threat of the Shadow. You claim he built up an organisation to rival the White Tower... Taim has had nothing to do with recruitment or training since the very beginning.

 

He's not a complete failure, its true. But he isn't this brilliant mastermind you make out.