[TV Show] Prophecies of the Dragon

[WhiteVeils]

Yes, the Aiel are going to be in Falme.  Part of the whole 'combining' thing.

[Andra]

4 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Yes, the Aiel are going to be in Falme.  Part of the whole 'combining' thing.

Which, as I said above, is odd.

 

The People of the Dragon are part of the prophesied fall of the Stone of Tear.  Not Falme.

[WhiteVeils]

4 minutes ago, Andra said:

Which, as I said above, is odd.

 

The People of the Dragon are part of the prophesied fall of the Stone of Tear.  Not Falme.

The Prophecy might be different in the show than the book.  Or maybe the Aiel travel from Falme to Tear with Rand or in some other fashion.  It all depends on how they do it.  They aren't doing prophecy the same way in the show; we know that.  In the books everyone knew the prophecies, at least in general.  In the books, it looks like no one really knows them so far.  Which is OK.  Less exposition to dump on viewers.  We'll see if they keep a bunch of prophecy or let 'Sky Rand' do all the announcing they need.

[Andra]

18 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

The Prophecy might be different in the show than the book.  Or maybe the Aiel travel from Falme to Tear with Rand or in some other fashion.  It all depends on how they do it.  They aren't doing prophecy the same way in the show; we know that.  In the books everyone knew the prophecies, at least in general.  In the books, it looks like no one really knows them so far.  Which is OK.  Less exposition to dump on viewers.  We'll see if they keep a bunch of prophecy or let 'Sky Rand' do all the announcing they need.

Which is, again ... odd.

 

And do you really think the show is going to attempt the fight in the sky?  Given the complaints about the special effects budget?

 

Incidentally, it's also odd for the show to claim no one knows the Prophecies when a copy was on a shelf in an inn for Rand to pick up.  If the prophecies are as unknown as implied, how would a farmer from an isolated mountain village know enough about them to recognize the title of the book?

[WhiteVeils]

The book was the Karethon cycle.  What is in that book, if it is considered a prophecy of the Dragon or a fairy tale, or some combination of both, we don't know yet...all we know is the title.   I think the nature of what the prophecies are, and what they actually contain will be a big part of S2 and especially Moiraine's plot in S2, but there is no reason for them to be exactly the same as they are in the books.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

The book was the Karethon cycle.  What is in that book, if it is considered a prophecy of the Dragon or a fairy tale, or some combination of both, we don't know yet...all we know is the title.   I think the nature of what the prophecies are, and what they actually contain will be a big part of S2 and especially Moiraine's plot in S2, but there is no reason for them to be exactly the same as they are in the books.

And naming a book the Karaethon Cycle and having it be something other than the collected Prophecies of the Dragon would be - again ... odd.

 

If that's not what it is, why give it that title?  Call it something else.

[WhiteVeils]

10 hours ago, Andra said:

And naming a book the Karaethon Cycle and having it be something other than the collected Prophecies of the Dragon would be - again ... odd.

 

If that's not what it is, why give it that title?  Call it something else.

Because fans would recognize it and be excited to see it. It's called fan service. 

[SinisterDeath]

10 hours ago, Andra said:

And naming a book the Karaethon Cycle and having it be something other than the collected Prophecies of the Dragon would be - again ... odd.

How many prophecies did we get in the series? A couple dozen? 
Then we see a massive book in the show, and even in the books we don't even know how many "pages" the Karaethon Cycle would be... 

If its 600 pages of collected "prophecies of the dragon", then there's potentially a lot of junk prophecies for someone to decipher through... or to put it another way... there's a lot of prophecies to cherry pick to match current events..

[Andra]

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

How many prophecies did we get in the series? A couple dozen? 
Then we see a massive book in the show, and even in the books we don't even know how many "pages" the Karaethon Cycle would be... 

If its 600 pages of collected "prophecies of the dragon", then there's potentially a lot of junk prophecies for someone to decipher through... or to put it another way... there's a lot of prophecies to cherry pick to match current events..

We don't know how many prophecies were actually collected, but it is implied from various things we DO see that many more are included than we ever hear, and that even the ones we hear about are longer than the excerpts mentioned.  Several of the prophecies were apparently written as fairly long poems (think Nostradamus and his quatrains) of which we only ever hear a few lines. 

We are also told that recitation of the entire cycle by a gleeman can take several days.

 

And yes, this can lead to quite a lot of "post-diction" to match prophecies to current events.

 

Or as the books say, to have Rand fulfill prophecies no one even knows about.

[Andra]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Because fans would recognize it and be excited to see it. It's called fan service. 

Making fans excited to see something than giving them something completely unrelated isn't exactly "service."

It's more like "fan abuse."

 

So what else is new?

[SinisterDeath]

6 hours ago, Andra said:

Making fans excited to see something than giving them something completely unrelated isn't exactly "service."

It's more like "fan abuse."

 

So what else is new?

Unfamiliar with what fan service is?

 

Something as benign as a character wearing a costume that a protagonist wore in a different show, at a Halloween party... is fan service.

 

We saw a big ass book, was told what it was, but barely told anything about the contents. That's basically exactly what we got in the books...

[Andra]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Unfamiliar with what fan service is?

 

Something as benign as a character wearing a costume that a protagonist wore in a different show, at a Halloween party... is fan service.

 

We saw a big ass book, was told what it was, but barely told anything about the contents. That's basically exactly what we got in the books...

Teasing the title of a book that fans are familiar with, but crapping on their expectation of what's in it isn't exactly "service."

 

I'm familiar with what the term means.  This ain't it.

 

Fan service implies valuing your fans' interests.  This would the opposite.  Which is unsurprising, considering that Rafe has said that he has intentionally alienated the only fans that would even know what this is.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Andra

[SinisterDeath]

10 hours ago, Andra said:

Teasing the title of a book that fans are familiar with, but crapping on their expectation of what's in it isn't exactly "service."

 

I'm familiar with what the term means.  This ain't it.

 

Fan service implies valuing your fans' interests.  This would the opposite.  Which is unsurprising, considering that Rafe has said that he has intentionally alienated the only fans that would even know what this is.

The scene from Episode 5 in question... They showed the book. Rand Named Dropped it. That's it. That's fan service.
 

It's not like they had Rand read passages of the book out loud, and that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to be a transman that gives birth to a demon squid dog to conquer the world with his calamari of justice.

 

I literally just watched the scene. The only reason I can find you or anyone else would find it "offensive" to fans, is because it was in the show ya'll hate so much.

[Guire]

16 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The scene from Episode 5 in question... They showed the book. Rand Named Dropped it. That's it. That's fan service.
 

It's not like they had Rand read passages of the book out loud, and that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to be a transman that gives birth to a demon squid dog to conquer the world with his calamari of justice.

 

I literally just watched the scene. The only reason I can find you or anyone else would find it "offensive" to fans, is because it was in the show ya'll hate so much.

Calamari of justice is good with a slight squeeze of lemon and some cocktail sauce.  I actually dont hate the show.  I just find it excrutiatingly meh.  It also has pushed me over the line into full on "get off my lawn" old guy.  It has been a rough realization.

[DojoToad]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:16 PM, Andra said:

Which is, again ... odd.

 

And do you really think the show is going to attempt the fight in the sky?  Given the complaints about the special effects budget?

 

Incidentally, it's also odd for the show to claim no one knows the Prophecies when a copy was on a shelf in an inn for Rand to pick up.  If the prophecies are as unknown as implied, how would a farmer from an isolated mountain village know enough about them to recognize the title of the book?

Padan Fain made sure a copy was available for the isolated farmers to be educated in prophecy.

[WhiteVeils]

He didn't necessarily know it anyway...I mean, he read the cover, after all.

[VooDooNut]

On 5/9/2022 at 1:16 AM, Andra said:

If the prophecies are as unknown as implied, how would a farmer from an isolated mountain village know enough about them to recognize the title of the book?

 

24 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

He didn't necessarily know it anyway...I mean, he read the cover, after all.

Exactly. I just re-watched the scene and it doesn't come across as Rand understanding the contents of the book or recognizing the title. He might have just seen something in a book he finds (such as the image of the dragon) and in that moment been like, "Oh, this is talking about a dragon, and the title says it's called the Karaethon Cycle. (And I secretly suspect I'm the dragon even though I haven't told anyone.) Interesting..."

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

 

Exactly. I just re-watched the scene and it doesn't come across as Rand understanding the contents of the book or recognizing the title. He might have just seen something in a book he finds (such as the image of the dragon) and in that moment been like, "Oh, this is talking about a dragon, and the title says it's called the Karaethon Cycle. (And I secretly suspect I'm the dragon even though I haven't told anyone.) Interesting..."

I guess with the aging up of the EF5, he doesn't have time to read prophecies or The Travels of Jain Farstrider - there are more interesting pursuits...

[Nik]

I'm confused, what's the issue here? The prophecies clearly exist in the show, we just haven't heard one verbatim yet. 

 

To go back to the OP, I'm not convinced the prophecy about the people of the dragon is being changed to be about Falme rather than Tear. They've already teased the Stone in season 1 so I expect it to pay off at some point. But we've also heard multiple times that there are Aiel where they shouldn't be, so we could meet them elsewhere (such as Falme) and then also have them at Tear, either in the same season or later.

[Andra]

12 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

The scene from Episode 5 in question... They showed the book. Rand Named Dropped it. That's it. That's fan service.
 

It's not like they had Rand read passages of the book out loud, and that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to be a transman that gives birth to a demon squid dog to conquer the world with his calamari of justice.

 

I literally just watched the scene. The only reason I can find you or anyone else would find it "offensive" to fans, is because it was in the show ya'll hate so much.

I think you misunderstood my point.

I didn't say the scene was "offensive" in any way.

 

I was referring to what would happen if, after teasing fans with the title, Rafe made it have nothing to do with the Prophecies of the Dragon.

 

"Fan Service" refers to things fans will recognize, and which will either have no real significance to the story, or will tease something of that will become significant later.  Teasing the title, then making it refer to something completely unrelated, would be neither of those things. 

The Prophecies of the Dragon have pretty much the opposite of "no real significance to the story."  And turning it into something different isn't making it significant later.

 

If this is what happens, wouldn't be "fan service."  It wouldn't even be a reach-around.

[Andra]

9 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

 

Exactly. I just re-watched the scene and it doesn't come across as Rand understanding the contents of the book or recognizing the title. He might have just seen something in a book he finds (such as the image of the dragon) and in that moment been like, "Oh, this is talking about a dragon, and the title says it's called the Karaethon Cycle. (And I secretly suspect I'm the dragon even though I haven't told anyone.) Interesting..."

That wasn't my point there.

 

It's not that Rand was familiar with the Prophecies, just that he recognized the title.

And that it was familiar enough to the population in general that it showed up in the reading room of an inn.

 

You don't get copies of a book in an inn that no one has ever heard of.

[VooDooNut]

16 hours ago, Andra said:

That wasn't my point there.

 

It's not that Rand was familiar with the Prophecies, just that he recognized the title.

And that it was familiar enough to the population in general that it showed up in the reading room of an inn.

 

You don't get copies of a book in an inn that no one has ever heard of.

Yeah, but, again, based on that one scene, I didn't get the impression Rand even recognized the title. It appeared to me as if he just read the title aloud (for himself and the audience) without being familiar with the book or its contents.

 

I don't have a good explanation for the book showing up in an inn, but that aspect/plot hole doesn't bother me.

[WhiteVeils]

An Aes Sedai stayed there and left the book in their room. That's how hotels get all their books. ?

 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

Yeah, but, again, based on that one scene, I didn't get the impression Rand even recognized the title. It appeared to me as if he just read the title aloud (for himself and the audience) without being familiar with the book or its contents.

 

I don't have a good explanation for the book showing up in an inn, but that aspect/plot hole doesn't bother me.

Plot holes/errors are like Easter eggs to me.  They don't bother me if they are rare and/or have minimal impact on the story.  I actually like finding them.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

An Aes Sedai stayed there and left the book in their room. That's how hotels get all their books. ?

 

So you're saying that Aes Sedai actually ARE familiar with the prophecies.  ?