What was Moiraine's plan if the dragon was a woman?

[WhiteVeils]

The heronmark prophecy has not been mentioned in the series, and is technically difficult to achieve...any marks on the palms on the hands tend not to work well in terms of tattoos or makeup, and is not necessary once 'battle in the sky' is seen. I expect they'll ditch it.
As far as battles go, the three major battles rand are in are Turok, Ishy at Falme, and Ishyl at Tear. Turok is not necessary for a direct line to show everyone the Dragon is reborn, and Ishy at Tear and Ishy at Falme will probably be combined into one big Ishy fight. That fight does not necessarily require master swordsmanship to, again, get the concept out to the world that Rand is the Dragon and showcase Rand's acceptance of that, which is what that fight needs to do.

Things will be changed and combined.  A fight where Rand ends up chasing Ishy from Falme to Tear within the same fight works?  I have some ideas for how they will accomplish it. We'll see how it goes.

[Cauthonfan4]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:40 AM, WhiteVeils said:

Yes, the decision to show or not show something is based on audience interest and storytelling, minutes of screentime available, sets, locations, training, and special effects costs, many other things.

but they had two entire episodes to waste on stepin. maybe they should have used their time actually showing our characters develop and learn instead. i know. hard concept.

On 3/22/2022 at 2:23 PM, Andra said:

Unfortunately, Rafe doesn't seem to think character development matters.

exactly. as a matter of a fact, some of our characters took a step back from their book counterparts.

On 3/22/2022 at 4:13 PM, VooDooNut said:

I wouldn't be surprised if we see them training early in season 2. I don't mind that we haven't seen Rand train with the sword yet, as it was never relevant in season 1 anyway and its absence leaves room for him to grow in later seasons.

as opposed to the growth we got in season 1. oh wait. nope. great decision there, not developing your main cast, look how many people making complaints about how boring the characters are and how shocked people were that rand was the dragon reborn.

furthermore that training scene actually set up a bit of a connection between rand and lan, with the flame and the void.

21 hours ago, Andra said:

How can any of that happen if he doesn't know one end of the sword from the other until after the battles are already over?  How could he fight Ishy?

blame the writers for this one. they were the ones who decided our characters don't need any development and threw out the source material. I can't wait until plot holes build upon plot holes or they do the lazy way out with "good job training over the last month, you're much better". thanks for that quality character development time writers. course at this point i don't expect anything from them.

[Andra]

9 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

The heronmark prophecy has not been mentioned in the series, and is technically difficult to achieve...any marks on the palms on the hands tend not to work well in terms of tattoos or makeup, and is not necessary once 'battle in the sky' is seen. I expect they'll ditch it.
As far as battles go, the three major battles rand are in are Turok, Ishy at Falme, and Ishyl at Tear. Turok is not necessary for a direct line to show everyone the Dragon is reborn, and Ishy at Tear and Ishy at Falme will probably be combined into one big Ishy fight. That fight does not necessarily require master swordsmanship to, again, get the concept out to the world that Rand is the Dragon and showcase Rand's acceptance of that, which is what that fight needs to do.

Things will be changed and combined.  A fight where Rand ends up chasing Ishy from Falme to Tear within the same fight works?  I have some ideas for how they will accomplish it. We'll see how it goes.

That particular prophecy isn't mentioned until book 2.  So there's no reason for the show to have done so in season 1.  And they don't have to show it to the viewers every minute for it to be known.  Remember, in the books he usually covered both the Herons and the Dragons.

 

I expect the number of things they'll "ditch" is nearly uncountable.  Given everything they've already ditched.

 

As far as Rand's "battles" there are a few more than that.  He had a number of skirmishes in the halls of Fal Dara.  The fight that got him the name "Shadowkiller" from the wolves.  The fight against an apparent entire merchant train of darkfriends (including his first Gray Man).  The fight against Be'lal in the Heart of the Stone, BEFORE he fights Ishamael.

 

All of these require the audience to accept that he is at least moderately capable with the sword in order to be believable.  Some require them to accept that he is exceptional with it.

The fact that the last few of those involve a blade made of something besides steel is essentially irrelevant.  Because he still fights with it as if it is.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Rafe combines Falme and Tear into a single event.  It would be nonsensical, but right down his alley.

But that doesn't change the fact that the audience has no reason to believe Rand would survive any kind of sword battle, since as far as they've seen he has no idea how to use it.

 

Showing him finally training to use it after the fact would be pointless.

 

 

 

You have mentioned "storytelling" as a reason to leave things out.

But there's a problem with that as it relates to character development and training:

In a story where a character has a skill that most other characters don't, and in which that skill is important to the story, their acquisition of that skill is generally portrayed in one of three ways -

 

1) You meet them already possessing the skill, with the understanding that they acquired it sometime before the story started.  The skill is demonstrated fairly early in the story, in order not to cause confusion later.  This happened with both Moiraine and Lan, and set the stage for all the other Aes Sedai and Warders we meet later also being skilled. 

Usually (but not always) an explanation for how they acquired the skill is provided as well.  Jordan does this in EotW to explain how all three of the boys got their skill with the bow, when Lan is surprised by it.  It's also part of Tam's mystery, since no one understood how he got the sword and the skill to use it until quite a bit later.

 

2) They discover they have the skill at some point, and are surprised by it.  This typically happens when the character is some kind of "chosen one."  Think Harry Potter finding out he's a wizard by talking to a snake and making a pane of glass vanish then reappear.

 

3) They acquire the skill - during the story - through training.

 

I know of no examples, in fiction or non-fiction, where one of those three didn't happen.  As a result, rational audiences actually expect to see it.

Cutting out their training (not just Rand's) would be bad storytelling, and there's no real excuse for it.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

Option 4:  The skill you think is necessary is not necessary...they have made changes to the story that circumvent his need for that particular skill, so he doesn't need to acquire it. Example: Rand is trained by Thom in playing the flute.  If they choose to never include him playing the flute in the series, then he doesn't need to ever learn that skill from Thom.   Same for swordfighting.  If he resolves all his conflicts using the one power in the series, then he never needs to learn swordfighting. Note: I think he will learn swordfighting. But he may not learn it this season, or he will learn it from a different teacher than Lan.

Option 5:   They acquire the skill through training, but the training occurs during a timeskip that is not played out on screen, except, possibly, with one scene or lesson or mention that it occurred.  I suspect that this will happen between S2 and S3 once Rand is in the Stone of Tear.

The show is not going to have every fight from the books.  It's going to cut large swaths of them. It's going to go to core themes for characters, and, yes, even come up with new stories that try to carry that theme forward in a different way than Jordan did. I love the Mat/Rand on the way to Camelyn journey. It was cut down to Dana the darkfriend and the Grinwell farm, which still had a lot of themes of what went on in that journey.  That's just what it is going to be.

[Andra]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Option 4:  The skill you think is necessary is not necessary...they have made changes to the story that circumvent his need for that particular skill, so he doesn't need to acquire it. Example: Rand is trained by Thom in playing the flute.  If they choose to never include him playing the flute in the series, then he doesn't need to ever learn that skill from Thom.   Same for swordfighting.  If he resolves all his conflicts using the one power in the series, then he never needs to learn swordfighting. Note: I think he will learn swordfighting. But he may not learn it this season, or he will learn it from a different teacher than Lan.

Option 5:   They acquire the skill through training, but the training occurs during a timeskip that is not played out on screen, except, possibly, with one scene or lesson or mention that it occurred.  I suspect that this will happen between S2 and S3 once Rand is in the Stone of Tear.

The show is not going to have every fight from the books.  It's going to cut large swaths of them. It's going to go to core themes for characters, and, yes, even come up with new stories that try to carry that theme forward in a different way than Jordan did. I love the Mat/Rand on the way to Camelyn journey. It was cut down to Dana the darkfriend and the Grinwell farm, which still had a lot of themes of what went on in that journey.  That's just what it is going to be.

4) You missed where I stated that the skill IS important.  Your option 4 has nothing to do with the point.

 

5) Not showing it on screen is not the same as not knowing it happened.  If it isn't explicitly shown, it is explicitly referred to as having happened.  And some part of is usually shown on screen.  As I said previously, in the book we are told that training - both for Egwene and channeling, and for the boys and weapons - continued every night after the first instance.  That has strangely been cut from the show.  Your option 5 is exactly what we're talking about.  And it doesn't happen.

 

There's a reason why the "Training Montage" is a trope.  Because it is effective.  And because audiences expect it.  We don't have to see every minute of it.  We just need to see that it happened.

 

And we don't.

Not even with Egwene, who we are told could have been the Dragon.

 

Which is still the point of this discussion thread.

[WhiteVeils]

Training montages are cheesy and overdone. We had the mention of the training already in the gem sequence. That's all we need in a show.

 

And Rand's swordfighting has NOT been important in the show version of the story so far.  It may or not be in the show version of the story next season.   You have no idea what is going to be cut and what is not going to be cut. We will know when we see it if there is a plot hole or not. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Andra]

13 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Training montages are cheesy and overdone. We had the mention of the training already in the gem sequence. That's all we need in a show.

 

And Rand's swordfighting has NOT been important in the show version of the story so far.  It may or not be in the show version of the story next season.   You have no idea what is going to be cut and what is not going to be cut. We will know when we see it if there is a plot hole or not. 

Training is part of character development.

Montages CAN be cheesy, but they don't have to be.  And audiences expect them.  Jordan included training early in the first book.  Rafe removed it.

 

Incidentally, what Moiraine does with Egwene and her kesiera is not technically training, it's simply testing.  Every candidate for admission to the White Tower who is not known to have already channeled goes through something equivalent.  They don't begin to receive actual training unless and until the testing shows they can be trained.

 

Not only do we get no indication in the show that any more actual training happened, we are given a number of reasons to think it didn't. 

1: Moiraine wouldn't have taken the chance of being seen doing so by any Whitecloaks that might have lingered in the area after their meeting. 

2: Then her condition from the "Trolloc poison" deteriorates, so Lan tells everyone not to bother her because she needs to rest.  So when they make camp, she gets off her horse and immediately goes to sleep. 

3: After that, she is barely conscious. 

None of that leads to any expectation that training happened offscreen and is just never talked about.  And expecting viewers to believe something they never heard about actually happened offscreen with zero onscreen mention is objectively bad storytelling.

 

And I didn't say Rand's use of his sword has been important so far.  I said that his skill with it BECOMES important in the books during the part of the story we are told season 2 will cover.  The same is true for Perrin and Mat, as well. 

 

Sure, Rafe could change the story so none of that happens.  You apparently don't think that would be a bad thing.  I do. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Andra

[DavyDrones]

On 1/19/2022 at 6:32 PM, king of nowhere said:

Ok, rand is revealed as the dragon, moiraine brings him to the eye, rand asks what he's supposed to do, moiraine hands him a male sa'angreal. basically says, with this you'll be super strong, point it to the DO and shoot

 

but what if the dragon had turned out to be egwene? moiraine certainly does not have a female sa'angreal, or she would have used it in battle. so she would have told... take your puny untrained power, point it to the DO and shoot? what would moiraine have done with a female dragon?

I really find the question stupid and I will explain why. If that happened and the dragon was a woman the whole lory can be thrown into the trash bin. Everything written by Jorden will be made redundant. WoT right now is all over the place, and misses the CORE story. And you are asking if more can be changed???? I have no words.

Edited March 29, 2022 by DavyDrones

[DavyDrones]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:04 AM, Chivalry said:

Good question. They need to tighten up the writing for Season 2.

 

They need to assign a person to just think through how any changes might affect the logic of the story going forward. That job probably means more than just consulting as the resident book expert, although this person will have to be very familiar with the books.

I don't know to laugh or not but I agree it is a "good" question. And the rest is exactly as you said. Basically the story will not be WOT anymore but a total fabrication.A mockery to Jordan's work

Edited March 29, 2022 by DavyDrones

[DojoToad]

On 3/24/2022 at 9:42 AM, WhiteVeils said:

Training montages are cheesy and overdone. We had the mention of the training already in the gem sequence. That's all we need in a show.

 

And Rand's swordfighting has NOT been important in the show version of the story so far.  It may or not be in the show version of the story next season.   You have no idea what is going to be cut and what is not going to be cut. We will know when we see it if there is a plot hole or not. 

What about Lan and Steppin training together?  Not exactly a montage (and terribly done) but it was training. And that’s all we would have needed to show that Rand was learning how to use a sword. Could even have been done in the background while Moiraine and Egwene were training. 

[WhiteVeils]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

What about Lan and Steppin training together?  Not exactly a montage (and terribly done) but it was training. And that’s all we would have needed to show that Rand was learning how to use a sword. Could even have been done in the background while Moiraine and Egwene were training. 

What would you have cut from Episode 2 to show it?  It's a tradeoff. 

Moiraine used her magic on Egwene to wake/refresh her in the middle of the night so she could train her.    She'd have to do it on everyone if they were 'training in the background', which takes more time to set up, and removes the whole 'what did she say to you' fight. 

There is a point where there's limited time and the director is allowed to make some decisions about what to keep or cut that is important for the show they want to tell. It's not about showing logistically every single thing. It's what is necessary for what they want to do. Maybe another person would choose differently, but it doesn't make that director's choices bad.

[DojoToad]

34 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

What would you have cut from Episode 2 to show it?  It's a tradeoff. 

 

Easy - cut Lan and Steppin training together.

 

A Lan training with Rand  scene can take 30 seconds or less would have been plenty to get the idea across.

Edited March 29, 2022 by DojoToad

[Andra]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

What would you have cut from Episode 2 to show it?  It's a tradeoff. 

Did you seriously just ask this question?

 

Look back through literally any of the discussion threads about the show to find entire lists of things people think not only could have but SHOULD have been cut.  Any of the things that were added, but have nothing to do with the book, would be a candidate for cutting.

And those lists wouldn't remotely need to be limited to Episode 2 in order to show it.  But even if there were some reason the cuts couldn't have come later, I can personally think of easily half a dozen things through the first two episodes that shouldn't be there, and which would have left plenty of time for this.

1: Egwene's initiation.  A sequence so irrelevant that Rafe himself cut part of what was filmed from what appeared in the show (though for some reason left it in the trailers).

2: Mat losing at dice, then needing to "acquire" a bracelet to fence with Fain to buy lanterns that anyone else could make by hand.

3: Moiraine and Lan in the bathtub.

4: The character assassination of Mat's parents.

5: The lanterns.  Entirely.

6: Hightower trying to get back across the river quite literally into the teeth of a mass of Shadowspawn STANDING ON HIS DOCK.

7: The Whitecloaks.

8: Lengthy overhead shots of the party riding horses across the landscape.

 

Any of those could have been reduced in length or even cut entirely to make room.  None would have made the show worse, and most would have actually made it better.

 

 

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Moiraine used her magic on Egwene to wake/refresh her in the middle of the night so she could train her.    She'd have to do it on everyone if they were 'training in the background', which takes more time to set up, and removes the whole 'what did she say to you' fight. 

Why would she have needed to do it with everyone?  She wouldn't have been training anyone else - Lan would.  Which could have been shown in less time than they took to add any number of irrelevant things.

 

 

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

There is a point where there's limited time and the director is allowed to make some decisions about what to keep or cut that is important for the show they want to tell. It's not about showing logistically every single thing. It's what is necessary for what they want to do. Maybe another person would choose differently, but it doesn't make that director's choices bad.

It's not about what to keep or cut, it's about what to keep and what to never add in the first place.

 

 

 

And once again - NO ONE has ever suggested "showing logistically every single thing."  It's profoundly disingenuous to dismiss legitimate criticism of the storytelling by pretending anyone has.

 

As I stated earlier, I can't think of a single example of any story - fiction or not - that ignores how uncommon but necessary skills are acquired.  I doubt you can either.  Because it's an integral part of good narrative.

 

Which actually does make the choices "bad."

Edited March 29, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

None of the things that you suggest to be cut, either of you, are from episode 2 except Hightower.  Only things from episode 2 can be cut to show training.  Episode 2 begins with them right after they leave the two Rivers, and ends with them separated after Shadar Logoth.  The only time they are on the road together to train is in E2.  Hightower is there to communicate that Moiraine is ruthless and won't hesitate to kill anyone who gets in her way and to give the EF5  a reason to distrust her that the audience can see.  You can cut a mile from other episodes and they won't give you a training sequence.

 

And you haven't shown why training in swords is important for this season yet.  If training in swords is important in a future season, them we can worry about showing the training then.  

 

 

 

[Andra]

58 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

None of the things that you suggest to be cut, either of you, are from episode 2 except Hightower.  Only things from episode 2 can be cut to show training.  Episode 2 begins with them right after they leave the two Rivers, and ends with them separated after Shadar Logoth.  The only time they are on the road together to train is in E2.  Hightower is there to communicate that Moiraine is ruthless and won't hesitate to kill anyone who gets in her way and to give the EF5  a reason to distrust her that the audience can see.  You can cut a mile from other episodes and they won't give you a training sequence.

 

And you haven't shown why training in swords is important for this season yet.  If training in swords is important in a future season, them we can worry about showing the training then.  

 

 

 

Actually, the last three things on my list were from Episode 2.

 

Regardless, your claim that only material in Episode 2 is eligible for cutting is arbitrary and without meaningful basis.

Anything prior to the point where training would be shown could be cut without changing the timing.  Move the crossing at Taren Ferry to the end of the previous episode - and do nothing else - and it frees up plenty of time to show training at one of their campsites.  Move half of Shadar Logoth to the beginning of the next episode - and do nothing else - and you accomplish the same thing.  All that would be needed is a couple of minutes of screen time, then a line spoken later to indicate it continued.

 

Hightower might have been intended to show Moiraine's ruthlessness and create distrust.  But the way it was written, all it did was make him look insane, and make their distrust completely irrational.  Any rational person would have recognized that Hightower was nuts, and was a threat to all their lives.  Distrusting Moiraine for preventing that is stupid, at best.

 

And I'm sorry but if the problem with showing something early is that it doesn't leave time for what happens later, you can make time for it by CUTTING WHAT HAPPENS LATER.  Like Lan and Stepin practicing together.  Or any number of other things that Rafe added that have nothing to do with the books.

 

And I will repeat something I've said before, which you have refused to even acknowledge - in the books, the skill each of the three of them has with weapons becomes important long before the end of book three.  The point after which you have predicted they would finally get trained to use them.  If they survive to finish Season 2, training will have to appear at some point before that.  Training that could have appeared in the same place it did in the book, but was cut.

 

Training that could have included Egwene actually being taught, rather than just tested.  Which would have answered the question this thread asks, but which Rafe ignores entirely.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

I will acknowledge that, while not absolutely plot critical/required to accomplish the basic themes/beats of the story as shown, in the book sword training is important earlier than book 3.  It is very important in the books at the end of The Great Hunt.  It is not important in the show yet in S1, and may or may not prove to be in S2 or S3.  It depends on what choices the Show runner makes and how he chooses to arrange the events of the climax of the season. Training may happen on or off screen.  We don't yet know.  All we know is it wasn't important in the events of s1.

 

 In e08 Rand says that Moiraine trained Egwene so we know that happened off screen, but did happen. 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Andra]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

I will acknowledge that, while not absolutely plot critical/required to accomplish the basic themes/beats of the story as shown, in the book sword training is important earlier than book 3.  It is very important in the books at the end of The Great Hunt.  It is not important in the show yet in S1, and may or may not prove to be in S2 or S3.  It depends on what choices the Show runner makes and how he chooses to arrange the events of the climax of the season. Training may happen on or off screen.  We don't yet know.  All we know is it wasn't important in the events of s1.

 

 In e08 Rand says that Moiraine trained Egwene so we know that happened off screen, but did happen. 

 

Rand says he *thinks* Moiraine taught her to channel.

He also says that he thought Egwene was the Dragon.  Which we know he was wrong about.

 

Moiraine never confirms either statement, and none of it indicates that training occurred - which is to be expected, since Rand would have no way of knowing one thing from the other.  He may have mistaken the testing he witnessed for actual training in how to channel.

 

And as I said previously, viewers are given plenty of reason to believe that nothing else beyond what we saw took place.  To avoid the notice of Whitecloaks that might still be in the area.  To prevent Moiraine from exhausting herself and letting her sleep as soon as they made camp.  And eventually because Moiraine was barely conscious.

 

No one has said the boys' skill with weapons was important at this point in the show.  In the book, there is reason to believe at least some of it has been important by this point.  But it definitely becomes important (for all three, not just Rand) before there would be time for them to acquire their skill, if the story to come is remotely like Jordan wrote it.  And with Rand now having gone off on his own, there is no opportunity in the foreseeable future for him at least to get it.

Again, if the story is remotely like Jordan wrote it.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

The quote is "You taught Egwene to channel.  You presented her to the Amyrlin seat." Not "I think" you did. Moiraine nods slightly in affirmation.  

 

If it becomes important that Rand swordfight in the show he may get training.  If it isn't he won't.  Maybe the show will be utterly unlike to books to you because it won't be important.  Maybe for others how much swordfighting Rand can do and when he learns to do it is not nearly as important as other themes from the story the show runner is trying to convey.  In which case, those others will enjoy it more than you.  Him being able to swordfight is not a huge theme to me. And he can learn it in several places that I can think of through S2,S3, and s4.  We'll see what they choose.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

The quote is "You taught Egwene to channel.  You presented her to the Amyrlin seat." Not "I think" you did. Moiraine nods slightly in affirmation.  

 

Actually, the entire quote is "You thought it would be Egwene. Didn't you? You taught her to channel. You introduced her to your Amyrlin Seat. You thought it was her. ... So did I." 

 

 

He is talking about what he believed, not what he knows to be true.  A man who can't see what a woman is doing when she channels couldn't possibly tell the difference between eavesdropped testing and eavesdropped training.  Her "slight nod" means next to nothing.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

If it becomes important that Rand swordfight in the show he may get training.  If it isn't he won't.  Maybe the show will be utterly unlike to books to you because it won't be important.  Maybe for others how much swordfighting Rand can do and when he learns to do it is not nearly as important as other themes from the story the show runner is trying to convey.  In which case, those others will enjoy it more than you.  Him being able to swordfight is not a huge theme to me. And he can learn it in several places that I can think of through S2,S3, and s4.  We'll see what they choose.

You keep pretending the only issue is Rand and the sword.  It isn't.

All three of the boys become skilled in combat, and eventually military leaders.  Not remotely just Rand.  For each of them, a significant part of that development comes from Lan's teaching, and their experiences during the flight from the Two Rivers.

As far as what we've seen so far, there's no idea that's ever going to happen.

 

It's bizarre that you think learning some time in season 3 or 4 would answer a need without which Rand couldn't survive more than halfway through season 2.

 

And as I said in a previous post:

Quote

Sure, Rafe could change the story so none of that happens.  You apparently don't think that would be a bad thing.  I do. 

 

And no, I don't personally know anyone who cares about this story that would "enjoy it more" without that than with it.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

He said she thought Egwene was the Dragon. He /knew/ she taught her and presented her to the Amyrlin seat...it's in the very quote you posted. Yes, it is what he believed too, but he's not wrong about her presenting Egwene to the Amyrlin. And those two things are presented as things he knew.  You are quibbling.

 

As to how they get training...yes they are separate and can't all get training from Lan. In season 2 we are told Mat is following his book 3 arc, Perrin is following his book 2 arc, and Rand is following a combination of books 2&3.

 

Mat never learned to throw knives or fight with a quarterstaff or spear or his battle knowledge from Lan anyway.  He either knew that before he began, learned it from Thom, or gained it from his inherited memories. He can meet up with Thom in S2 or even S3 and learn then. Most of it can 'just appear' after his healing as his memory of Manethern grow.

 

Perrin starts S2 with a group of Fal Dara soldiers pursuing the Horn.  He can certainly be trained by them as they travel together, and/or by Elyas who is traveling with them. ( We know the role is cast and it looks like he will be combined with Hurin)

 

Rand we don't know where he is going for sure, since it is a combination. In the books he doesn't use his swordfighting for much until the climax of the Great Hunt, he uses his bow which he already knows how to use.  In book 3 he is off screen the whole book, except for one or two short scenes.  We know he is fighting a lot during that time, but it is all with the power and a sword made of the power...his heronmark is destroyed at  Falme.  The fighting he does from the book 3 part, however they show it, could be done with just the power rather than forming it into a sword.  

That said, he could be trained in the blade in S2 if it is relevant.  He could meet up with Lan at some point in S2 and be trained by him then, for one.  Or if he joins with Selene she could have him trained by someone  before he separates from her. 

 

Until there is the need for the skill, how they acquire the skill isn't really a question.  We will just have to wait and see.

Edited March 30, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[DojoToad]

On 3/29/2022 at 7:39 PM, WhiteVeils said:

None of the things that you suggest to be cut, either of you, are from episode 2 except Hightower.  Only things from episode 2 can be cut to show training.  Episode 2 begins with them right after they leave the two Rivers, and ends with them separated after Shadar Logoth.  The only time they are on the road together to train is in E2.  Hightower is there to communicate that Moiraine is ruthless and won't hesitate to kill anyone who gets in her way and to give the EF5  a reason to distrust her that the audience can see.  You can cut a mile from other episodes and they won't give you a training sequence.

 

And you haven't shown why training in swords is important for this season yet.  If training in swords is important in a future season, them we can worry about showing the training then.  

 

 

 

Regardless of when the Lan/Steppin training was, it wasn't needed - especially when that time could have been better used training the Two Rivers hayseeds.  We already know Warders can fight.

 

I believe the earlier they show the sword training the better, not wait until the 2nd season - otherwise it is an afterthought born of more bad writing/planning.  Oops, forgot Rand was a swordmaster, better get some training in now so that it is believable.  Even a small foundation is better than none and would have required very little investment in S1.

 

Of course given all the changes in the show, they may take the swordplay out of it - which would be wise on their part, because what I've seen of the fight scenes was laughable.  Best to move on and not embarrass themselves further.  I've seen too many well done medieval/Renaissance style fight scenes in both movies and on TV to appreciate what was done for WoT.

 

Sadly, this was probably something I should have anticipated in the transition from book to screen.  Swordplay is much easier to write than show - and there were many competent swordsmen in the books.  I could have accepted many fewer sword fights, but now believe they'll eliminate it entirely - at least on the mastery level.  They'll probably keep their silly 10 vs. 20 'battles' but anything that would show true weapons competence will be absent.

Edited March 31, 2022 by DojoToad
spelling

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Until there is the need for the skill, how they acquire the skill isn't really a question.  We will just have to wait and see.

A little forethought in S1 would have eliminated the question entirely.  By the time Rand needs the skill there is already a background to draw from - no matter how minor.  It is a hell of a lot more believable than a training montage half an episode before he actually needs to use a sword against an enemy.

 

But again, expectations for Rafe and company are not high.  He has a completed work to draw from and is still making mistakes as if he doesn't know where the story is going...

[VooDooNut]

...WAFO...?

[Andra]

21 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

He said she thought Egwene was the Dragon. He /knew/ she taught her and presented her to the Amyrlin seat...it's in the very quote you posted. Yes, it is what he believed too, but he's not wrong about her presenting Egwene to the Amyrlin. And those two things are presented as things he knew.  You are quibbling.

When you respond to someone, it would be helpful if you actually quoted what you are responding to.  In this case, if you had done so you would have noted this:

On 3/29/2022 at 11:04 PM, Andra said:

He is talking about what he believed, not what he knows to be true.  A man who can't see what a woman is doing when she channels couldn't possibly tell the difference between eavesdropped testing and eavesdropped training.  Her "slight nod" means next to nothing.

A sheepherder from a backwoods town who has never even seen an Aes Sedai would have no idea what "training to channel" would look like.  More importantly - as a male, he wouldn't have been able to tell what was happening even if he saw it.  And we know from the book that he never tried to spy on them again. 

 

He has literally no way of knowing if what he said was true or not.  Of all the things he mentions in that line, only one would he have been able to confirm (the introduction to the Amyrlin).  Every other thing is nothing more than what he believed.

 

In the book, he has reason to believe Moiraine taught Egwene, since he saw them go off by themselves every night after camp had been set up.  And because Egwene actually tells him that's what they're doing.  In the show, that is never seen.  The only time in the show after the testing scene that we see them make camp, Moiraine immediately goes to sleep.

 

This is not remotely "quibbling."  It's simply stating the facts.

21 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Mat never learned to throw knives or fight with a quarterstaff or spear or his battle knowledge from Lan anyway.  He either knew that before he began, learned it from Thom, or gained it from his inherited memories. He can meet up with Thom in S2 or even S3 and learn then. Most of it can 'just appear' after his healing as his memory of Manethern grow.

Yes, Mat learns to throw knives from Thom.  Something we are shown in the book.  And the rest of Mat's knowledge falls into one my options listed earlier.  Option one with the quarterstaff, option 3 with battle tactics (as well as dancing and the Old Tongue).  But his skill with the quarterstaff and the sling (like all three of their skill with the bow) was explained immediately as soon as Lan decided to train them.  And the explanation for how they already knew this - which surprised Lan when he found it out - meets that Option #1. 

This doesn't happen in the show.  In the book, readers discover that Two Rivers farm folk learn how to protect their flocks from predators.  In the show, only Rand lives on a farm, and can then be expected to know the bow (or the sling or the quarterstaff). 

In the book, readers also discover that many of the people in the Two Rivers have these skills, and that they hold competitions regularly, as part of their holiday celebrations.  In the show, no one ever hears this.  Because Lan never tries to teach them anything.

 

And none of it would explain Rand learning to use his father's sword, or Perrin to use the axe Master Luhhan made.  Both of them begin to learn from Lan (Rand more than Perrin, for obvious reasons).

 

21 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Rand we don't know where he is going for sure, since it is a combination. In the books he doesn't use his swordfighting for much until the climax of the Great Hunt, he uses his bow which he already knows how to use. 

Sorry, but that is simply false.

Rand uses his sword during the attack inside Fal Dara.  He is shown practicing the sword regularly both before (with Lan) and after they leave with Ingtar's team.  And he specifically uses the sword to earn the wolf-nickname "Shadowkiller."  The sword has become integral to his characterization from the very beginning of book 2.

 

So integral that when he uses the Power to fight in book 3, it is AS A SWORD.  Something he couldn't do if he hadn't learned how to use the damn thing.  And he uses it that way because by that time he knows what he's doing with the sword, but still doesn't have a clue about anything else with the Power.

 

Again, if he doesn't get training on the sword until after the events are all over with, he wouldn't survive to receive it.

 

Quote

Until there is the need for the skill, how they acquire the skill isn't really a question.  We will just have to wait and see.

And if you wait until someone needs a skill to show how they know it, you've failed as a writer.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Andra

[SilentRoamer]

So i'm re-reading EotW and there is a scene where they are travelling, they have been on the road for a few weeks after fleeing the TR. Mat says something like:

 

"See Rand, I can juggle 4 now, I told you I could do it before you". Tiny sentence that just gives so much information, it shows that both Rand and Matt are already training as Gleeman, it shows us they are developing a relationship with Thom as they learn new skills, it tells us Matt is slightly ahead of the game. 

This section made me think of the discussion above. There's even the scene with Steppin and Lan practicing forms - why not just add in Rand and Mat in the background practicing? Instead in a 58 minute episode we get 19 minutes of Steppin, a character that doesn't exist in the books and only exists to act as an exposition agent - something our existing characters could have done, developing their arcs at the same time as providing the needed exposition. 

That whole arc was a complete waste of time and honestly inventing new characters in Season 1 of a show where adapting the material in the timeframe means a lot of condensing seems just like some fanfic version of a show. Ughhhhhh.

 

Honestly my re-read of EotW is making me annoyed at how many great scenes there are and how these could have been adapted for the show.