Moiraine, Siuan, and the Oath

[DorrinVerrakai1]

Is anyone else interested in how the oath that Moiraine swore directly to Siuan is going to effect things down the line? I can't shake the feeling that this is going to be significant for the Tower of Ghenjei storyline and that Siuan will be joining the rescue.

 

They did say they're adapting the full series not book to book so it's possible this little seedling is as important as I think it is for Moiraine's internment in another dimension and eventual rescue....

[Ryrin]

22 hours ago, DorrinVerrakai1 said:

Is anyone else interested in how the oath that Moiraine swore directly to Siuan is going to effect things down the line? I can't shake the feeling that this is going to be significant for the Tower of Ghenjei storyline and that Siuan will be joining the rescue.

 

They did say they're adapting the full series not book to book so it's possible this little seedling is as important as I think it is for Moiraine's internment in another dimension and eventual rescue....

I was really confused about that scene with the oath rod. I’m sure it will come into play somewhere down the road. 

[Lethira the second]

It was definitely odd, felt to me as they were going for a wedding vow vibe.

[DojoToad]

I still feel it steals thunder from the scene after the battle at Dumai's Wells when Rand forces the Aes Sedai to kneel.  But Rafe couldn't have that kind of masculine dominance in his show.  Not a big deal though if the scene is cut.

 

Plus it plays with canon further with abuse of the oath rod.  Changes on top of changes...

[Lethira the second]

To be clear, I didn't like it as a change.  Messes with too much but, it felt like wedding vows to me.

[Andra]

It was definitely unnecessary and introduced a wrinkle that it didn't have to, which will need to be ironed out in the future (if those future events actually happen).  Besides - why require an oath of obedience and exile her at the same time?

 

The books tell us more than once that Aes Sedai don't swear fealty to an individual Amyrlin.  Which is what makes both Dumai's Wells and Elaida's BS so shocking to other sisters later when they hear about them.  And makes the use of the Rod by Pevara's little group something dangerous to them if found out.

 

It's also kind of strange that no one else seemed to notice Moiraine changing the words before she swore, since paying attention to specific wording is something every Aes Sedai learns.

 

When told to swear, the wording is to obey "the Amyrlin Seat."  When she repeats the oath, she says "Siuan Sanche."  And nobody even blinks.

[DaddyFinn]

14 minutes ago, Andra said:

The books tell us more than once that Aes Sedai don't swear fealty to an individual Amyrlin.  Which is what makes both Dumai's Wells and Elaida's BS so shocking to other sisters later when they hear about them.  And makes the use of the Rod by Pevara's little group something dangerous to them if found out.

Moiraine's oath to Siuan was quite different than what Elaida demanded from others

[VooDooNut]

On 1/15/2022 at 11:53 PM, DorrinVerrakai1 said:

Is anyone else interested in how the oath that Moiraine swore directly to Siuan is going to effect things down the line? I can't shake the feeling that this is going to be significant for the Tower of Ghenjei storyline and that Siuan will be joining the rescue.

 

They did say they're adapting the full series not book to book so it's possible this little seedling is as important as I think it is for Moiraine's internment in another dimension and eventual rescue....

Yes, it would make a lot of sense to swap Thom with Siuan for the Tower of Ghenjei rescue. Also, I never took to the Thom/Moiraine stuff in  the books Just another odd occurrence of a huge age gaps that felt unbelievable to me. (yes, yes, they are "effectively" the same age because Moiraine remains youthful blah blah blah. Still odd.)

 

It's also possible that Siuan is used by dark friends at some point and is forced to order Moiraine back to the White Tower or into some kind of trap. I doubt they would have lingered on this moment so much if it doesn't have a payoff down the line.

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I still feel it steals thunder from the scene after the battle at Dumai's Wells when Rand forces the Aes Sedai to kneel.  But Rafe couldn't have that kind of masculine dominance in his show.  Not a big deal though if the scene is cut.

 

Plus it plays with canon further with abuse of the oath rod.  Changes on top of changes...

To me, the most interesting part of the Dumai's Wells oaths of fealty, is that they don't use the oath rod to secure these oaths, but rely on the past oaths of the Aes Sedai to make the oaths to Rand binding. Also, the Aes Sedai that are Black Ajah are not beholden at all to this fealty, and the other sisters can interpret this new oath however they want, but Rand feels (mistakenly) safer hearing them swear fealty to him. Also, this is a dark scene. I love it. I think it will still be awesome when it is shown on screen.

8 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

To be clear, I didn't like it as a change.  Messes with too much but, it felt like wedding vows to me.

I never thought of this moment  like that before, but I like it!

[fra85uk]

I feel it is quite bizzarre that they took something that in the book was done by an evil character and it is considered to be a true abomination for aes sedai and gave it to Siuan with noone raising an eyebrow.

Of course book Siuan would never ask for a 4th oath but again book/show characters are different people.

[Andra]

52 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Moiraine's oath to Siuan was quite different than what Elaida demanded from others

True, but it wasn't the specific wording of the oath that made Elaida's demands so shocking to other Aes Sedai.  It was the mere fact that she required an oath of obedience.

 

Given this scene, there isn't really anything shocking left in what Elaida does.  Offensive and insulting, maybe.  But in the books, it's a visceral shock.  Now, not so much.

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Andra said:

True, but it wasn't the specific wording of the oath that made Elaida's demands so shocking to other Aes Sedai.  It was the mere fact that she required an oath of obedience.

 

Given this scene, there isn't really anything shocking left in what Elaida does.  Offensive and insulting, maybe.  But in the books, it's a visceral shock.  Now, not so much.

I get that, but I still think it's very different to demand an oath of complete obedience versus an oath to never return unless the Amyrlin tells to. The latter gives much more freedom.

[Andra]

48 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

To me, the most interesting part of the Dumai's Wells oaths of fealty, is that they don't use the oath rod to secure these oaths, but rely on the past oaths of the Aes Sedai to make the oaths to Rand binding.

Which is one of the reasons the Oath Rod shouldn't be necessary for something like this.  If it's impossible for someone to lie, they can't speak an oath they don't mean.  Speaking the oath on the rod is simply gilding the lily.

[VooDooNut]

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

Which is one of the reasons the Oath Rod shouldn't be necessary for something like this.  If it's impossible for someone to lie, they can't speak an oath they don't mean.  Speaking the oath on the rod is simply gilding the lily.

Agreed. Not saying it was the best choice including it in the scene because it's such a sacred item in books, but all the more reason I suspect it will turn out to bite them both in the butts down the road. "The arrogance..."

 

All that aside,  I think Egewene and Siuan have a really interesting convo about the oaths in The Path Of Daggers, but I've already quoted that passage elsewhere. It just speaks to Siuan thinking the Aes Sedai find their identity in the oaths. To be without them is to not be Aes Sedai, according to Siuan. So, in some way, oaths are very much a trait of Aes Sedai. The more the better?

Edited January 19, 2022 by VooDooNut
typo

[Andra]

19 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I get that, but I still think it's very different to demand an oath of complete obedience versus an oath to never return unless the Amyrlin tells to. The latter gives much more freedom.

The oath Moiraine swore does substantially more than that.  And substantially less.

She swears "to honor and obey Siuan Sanche, daughter of the river etc. etc. etc. and never return until she calls me home."

It's effectively two different oaths.  The first is to honor and obey Siuan (not the Amyrlin Seat), and the second is to never return "home" (not to the White Tower) until she calls.

This means that while it is an oath of obedience to Siuan, it doesn't transfer to whoever might replace her as Amyrlin.  Nor does it end if Siuan is deposed. 

It also means that "home" is where she's exiled from - presumably meaning wherever Siuan is.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

On a different topic, but one I noticed for the first time watching the scene ...

What's with the gold plating on Moiraine's ear?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Andra

[fra85uk]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

The oath Moiraine swore does substantially more than that.  And substantially less.

She swears "to honor and obey Siuan Sanche, daughter of the river etc. etc. etc. and never return until she calls me home."

It's effectively two different oaths.  The first is to honor and obey Siuan (not the Amyrlin Seat), and the second is to never return "home" (not to the White Tower) until she calls.

This means that while it is an oath of obedience to Siuan, it doesn't transfer to whoever might replace her as Amyrlin.  Nor does it end if Siuan is deposed. 

It also means that "home" is where she's exiled from - presumably meaning wherever Siuan is.

 

I totally agree.

And that's what should have triggered all the Aes Sedai in the hall, who spent decades in crafting the proper way of speaking following the oaths and listening other AS doing that as well.  

[Lethira the second]

47 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

I totally agree.

And that's what should have triggered all the Aes Sedai in the hall, who spent decades in crafting the proper way of speaking following the oaths and listening other AS doing that as well.  

But how do we know that this is not the practice for this 'turning of the wheel'? 

 

Perhaps in this version, they have decided every time an Aes Sedai is sentenced for something she must swear to accept it.  It doesn't make a great deal of sense given the 3 oaths but it may be something the showrunners have gone with.  They've certainly changed a number of ways the tower operates already. 

 

It was pretty clear in NS that it was not acceptable to interfere with another Aes Sedai's business or outright ask her what she was doing.  I don't believe in the book White Tower Liandrin would have been allowed to behave the way she did in front of the Amyrlin. 

 

 

[Cauthonfan4]

10 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

But how do we know that this is not the practice for this 'turning of the wheel'? 

Yeah well it's because of stuff like this that many fans are getting frustrated and dropping the show.

 

[Lethira the second]

@Cauthonfan4 no disagreement from me there.  It doesn't make sense and for me, needlessly complicates stuff.

[fra85uk]

54 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

But how do we know that this is not the practice for this 'turning of the wheel'? 

 

Perhaps in this version, they have decided every time an Aes Sedai is sentenced for something she must swear to accept it.  It doesn't make a great deal of sense given the 3 oaths but it may be something the showrunners have gone with.  They've certainly changed a number of ways the tower operates already. 

 

It was pretty clear in NS that it was not acceptable to interfere with another Aes Sedai's business or outright ask her what she was doing.  I don't believe in the book White Tower Liandrin would have been allowed to behave the way she did in front of the Amyrlin. 

 

 

Wait, even assuming that swearing multiple extra oaths is common in Rafe of Time, we have also seen in Rafe of time that there is kind of politics...now we have at least to assume that in RoT (it sound good, rot, very appropriate) AS are smart enough to have crafted their way of talking and listening within the limit given by oaths.

 

Therefore, when seeing such blatant loopholes in the wording of the new oaths, AS, particularly those against Blue Ajah, should be immediately triggered.

 

But wait we have already seen Moiraine uncapable of answering within the oaths to the simple question "what have you done in these months". So I retire my previous evaluation, show-AS are not smart enough to circumvent the oaths.

[ilovezam]

14 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

To be clear, I didn't like it as a change.  Messes with too much but, it felt like wedding vows to me.

Without even going into whether it's a good change or not, it was executed laughably poorly. They were openly weeping in full sight of the Hall while Moiraine was given a "punishment" that allowed her to continue doing her stuff outside of the Tower, which was what Liandrin used to get her into trouble in the first place. Anyone with half a brain would have immediately called out on it, especially given the Aes Sedai's propensity to bicker.

 

There were also so many easy ways to get out of the "pressure" put up by Liandrin. It was framed as though there was some political masterclass going on there with the characters, but it was in fact written more like an episode of Mean Girls than anything else. 

 

Liandrin: Her purpose - the purpose of all Blues, is to gather secrets and discover danger before it strikes at the heart of us, before it strikes at you, Mother. But Trollocs invaded from the west, and Logain's army swelled from the south without even a warning from Moiraine. Why?

 

Moiraine: Yo. I was following rumours of ta'veren (may as well make that one-liner relevant again) and brought back the most powerful channeller in a thousand years, without whom all of us, you included, would have been dead. I suspected that she might have potential but she had no training and could not channel as far as I knew then. She would be a great asset under the Tower, instead of a dangerous wilder. In the two years since I left, I travelled from Tear to the Two Rivers and many towns in between. Neither of which are in the same general direction as Ghaeldan or "the west". Also, Logain and his army sounds like Red Ajah business, where were the warnings from you lot?

 

FIN

 

 

 

 

[Lethira the second]

I got shouted down some time ago for suggesting the whole 'politicking' was poorly written and made no sense.  It wasn't an isolated attempt at manufacturing conflict for the sake of it.

[Cauthonfan4]

18 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I got shouted down some time ago for suggesting the whole 'politicking' was poorly written and made no sense.

Don't know why. I've seen better attempts st politics from kids 

[ilovezam]

1 hour ago, Lethira the second said:

I got shouted down some time ago for suggesting the whole 'politicking' was poorly written and made no sense.  It wasn't an isolated attempt at manufacturing conflict for the sake of it.

It's unfortunate - people will go very far to defend a show they like. I was accused of ageism and discriminating against rural people for suggesting that the Women's Circle shouldn't have been shown to do well against a Trolloc if Tam al'Thor gets destroyed by one. It's insane.

 

I think many people who enjoy the show but are more reasonable didn't think that the Aes Sedai politics were particularly well written, based off the comments that I've read.

Edited January 19, 2022 by ilovezam

[Deviations]

2 hours ago, ilovezam said:

But Trollocs invaded from the west, and Logain's army swelled from the south without even a warning from Moiraine

This intimated that Moraine is the only blue out in the field so to speak.  Ridiculous.