How different is too different?

[WhiteVeils]

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

Yeah like the clarity of if magic is split or not.

 

Oh wait

Like Clarity: Not introducing separate weird words for magic when you don't need them.

[WhiteVeils]

1 minute ago, Tamal said:

I took a listen to a couple of the episodes, and I found the podcast to be absolutely ridiculous. It is completely devoid of criticism, and sounds like hours of commercials. You're right. They defend every change, and it makes the whole "discussion" useless. 

So, you are saying because that if a discussion does not condemn the series, you dismiss it?

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, WhiteVeils said:

Like Clarity: Not introducing separate weird words for magic when you don't need them.

So it's okay to dumb down magic in the world. Got it. Keep defending changes that didn't need to happen.

 

[WhiteVeils]

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

So it's okay to dumb down magic in the world. Got it. Keep defending changes that didn't need to happen.

 

A change for clarity would be dumbing down the magic system (Note: I don't think they really did).  If they did it, it's not for no reason...It's to make it easier for an audience to understand.

You may not think that editing things for making the audience easier to understand is not a valid reason, but it's not no reason.

[Tamal]

Just now, WhiteVeils said:

So, you are saying because that if a discussion does not condemn the series, you dismiss it?

I am saying that concluding that changes are good from a podcast that functions as a commercial is not sensible. I do not find one-sided podcasts like this credible.

[WhiteVeils]

3 minutes ago, Tamal said:

I am saying that concluding that changes are good from a podcast that functions as a commercial is not sensible. I do not find one-sided podcasts like this credible.

It's not a commercial at all...these are professional script writers and playwrights who were podcasting a WOT readthrough long before the series began. You just are dismissing them because of opinion they offer.

Edited January 16, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

If they did it, it's not for no reason...It's to make it easier for an audience to understand.

You may not think that editing things for making the audience easier to understand is not a valid reason, but it's not no reason

They literally cause even more confusion. 

If men go crazy by using magic, and women use the same source how do women not go crazy?

If the sources are seperate what was the point of liandrin saying the power is for women and men sully the source by using it?

 

There is zero clarity there and I think your podcast is just an attempt to sweep crap under the rug.

[Cauthonfan4]

12 minutes ago, Tamal said:

. It is completely devoid of criticism, and sounds like hours of commercials. You're right. They defend every change, and it makes the whole "discussion" useless

Just what I thought. After all if every change is done for clarity, the change to magic literally conflicts with liandrins comments and causes confusion and reducing clarity. Figures they would be just a bunch of people defending everything. 

11 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

So, you are saying because that if a discussion does not condemn the series, you dismiss it

Considering that there is very easily criticism to be had, such as even lighting or how bad the aes sedai politics were? The fact that they have zero criticism to give is laughable at best.

5 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

It's not a commercial at all

When all you can do is praise everything you are a commercial. Even game of thrones had criticism to be had. And that show was loads better then wheel of time.

[EmreY]

TBH, I wonder how saidin/saidar/the True Power/ta'verenness can all be represented without the screen exploding in rainbows and ribbons.  (And whose point of view will be used to show the weaves?) 

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

44 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Just what I thought. After all if every change is done for clarity, the change to magic literally conflicts with liandrins comments and causes confusion and reducing clarity. Figures they would be just a bunch of people defending everything. 

Considering that there is very easily criticism to be had, such as even lighting or how bad the aes sedai politics were? The fact that they have zero criticism to give is laughable at best.

When all you can do is praise everything you are a commercial. Even game of thrones had criticism to be had. And that show was loads better then wheel of time.

 

You can't say whether it reduces or increases clarity or if those questions of magic are relevant if you are a book reader...you already know what the magic is and you have data from outside the show. Whether it is clearer or less clear is a question that can only be determined by completely non-book-readers, so you must poll a significant number of non-book-readers and get the answer to that.  Lacking that, you must look to those industry professionals who assess such things for a living and determine their take.

Unless you are a professional in TV/film lighting, you can complain about how you find the lighting, but you can't objectively say the lighting is bad or not.  It's not objective criticism, it is your own opinion, and other people's opinions, including mine, are equally valid.

If you don't like the politics the Aes Sedai show, that also is just an opinion, based on your interpretation of the show, and also 'flavored' with whatever baggage you have going in from reading the books.  I would look towards non-readers, especially non-readers with interest in political drama, to find out whether the politics of the Aes Sedai are good or not.

The Wheel Takes podcast is about scriptwriting...about the writing for the show.  They have expertise to back up their opinion.  I would have less respect for their opinion on lighting, which they didn't voice, but if there was a lighting designer who said WOT had great lighting, or terrible lighting, I'd consider their opinion more qualifying than mine or any other non-lighting designers.
But if the scriptwriting experts love every change, and explains specifically why, I'll figure, based on their professional  credentials, that that is more valid than a random other person, book reader or no.

[fra85uk]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

I guess if we believe the changes were done for a reason, the question then becomes: What is a valid reason for a change?  Is time a good reason? Money?  Clarity?  Logistics? Amazon management appeal? (with the corresponding money) Audience engagement? International audience? US audience (and which "Part" of the US Audience?  Women? Men? Older? Younger? Liberal? Conservative? Highly educated?  Poorly educated?)  
If what you want is for the whole book series to come to the screen, you have to want it to be made into at least 8 seasons.  Which means audience engagement, which means mass appeal to international and domestic audiences.

 

Unfortunately, an audience too small to be worth pursuing on its own is book fans.  So, changes.

 

Honestly, I am not so interested in the reason of the changes (I have my idea that a lot are just ideology-driven but it has been discussed to nausea). But for example, some changes are just plain stupid and show that this people is not very smart.

Example: 

 

book: the Gates are opened with the leaf and then, when the party is fleeing from the black wind, Moiraine reaches for the gate and....no leaf! So, desperately she channels and opens them.

Message received: The Gates can be opened by everyone who knows the leaf-trick BUT the OP can also be used (with all the risks connected to using the OP in the Ways)

 

Show: OP is used to open the gates both times, no mention of the leaf but then Padan Fain also opens them.

Message received: the gates open only with the OP---> Padan Fain probably OP user---> oh no wait, we have to put an extra to show what happened

 

It doesn't seem to me the definition of streamlining and clarity.

[Jaysen Gore]

14 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

Honestly, I am not so interested in the reason of the changes (I have my idea that a lot are just ideology-driven but it has been discussed to nausea). But for example, some changes are just plain stupid and show that this people is not very smart.

Example: 

 

book: the Gates are opened with the leaf and then, when the party is fleeing from the black wind, Moiraine reaches for the gate and....no leaf! So, desperately she channels and opens them.

Message received: The Gates can be opened by everyone who knows the leaf-trick BUT the OP can also be used (with all the risks connected to using the OP in the Ways)

 

Show: OP is used to open the gates both times, no mention of the leaf but then Padan Fain also opens them.

Message received: the gates open only with the OP---> Padan Fain probably OP user---> oh no wait, we have to put an extra to show what happened

 

It doesn't seem to me the definition of streamlining and clarity.

See, this is the kind of change I don't like - those where a 5 second shot would both improve clarity, move the lore closer to the book, and add some value to characters.  Just have Loial tell Moirane that the trefoil key is missing, before she starts to channel it open, and it adds a use to Loial, sets up that there is a way to open it besides the power, reduces the speculation that Fain can channel, and still lets Moiraine show off.

[WhiteVeils]

Alternative point of view...and note, I do not know specifically the reasons for the choices, but here they are:
 

Original view:  Gates are open with a leaf that is on the waygates:

Audience understanding: Anyone who knows the leaf trick can open the ways. There's no reason they wouldn't communicate that between each other.  Why doesn't everyone know the leaf trick? Why don't people take the leaves with them?  Why would the Aes Sedai leave an easy way to get to them?   Why doesn't everyone know that anyone could use the ways and therefore take the leaves to make them safe.  Why don't the Aes Sedai destroy the Black Wind and use this as transportation all over?  Why didn't moiraine just take the WayGates to go to Tar Valon in the first place?  Why could Moiraine not know that the Trollocs were coming through the Ways and therefore close it up so Two Rivers could be safe instead of fleeing with the EF5?

 

Change 1:  Moiraine channels to open the ways, then in a separate scene, Padan Fain uses a leaf that he was carrying with him to open the ways.

Audience Understanding now:  Only people who have the one power who know the special pattern she used can open the ways, except for people who have a special leaf that can open them as well.  And most people, including Moiraine, don't know about the special leaf (we don't know if Loial knows or not in the show).

<< This answers all the questions from the original view.

 

Change 2: We need to cut 2 minutes out of this episode for time/budget/logistical/whatever reasons.  Well, all we gain from showing Padan Fain entering the Ways using a leaf is telling us that Fain uses a leaf to enter the ways.   That is something that can be explained in season 3 when we send Perrin to Two Rivers to stop the Trollocs at the Waygate, and we can live with the audience wondering if Fain is a channeler (with the potential of being a bit mad) for a while...that might even be good anticipation/mystery and add to Fain's danger.
Audience Understanding now:  Only people who have the one power who know the special pattern she used can open the ways, but we still don't know how Fain and the Trollocs got in. I wonder how?  Maybe he's a channeler too?

<< This is the audience understanding now.

Fain is supposed to be intriguing anyway, so that's all to the good.  We want the audience interested in the characters and plot we're showing, not wondering why the people in Randland aren't using the ways all the time or don't know about them.

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[WhiteVeils]

Imagine if, in The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien had the King of the Eagles at the Council of Elrond. 
(Bear with me).

The King of Eagles can be a great character, and could explain in a 5 minute monologue why it would be impossible for the Eagles to carry the ring to Mount Doom. And then, with a flourish of wings, he could fly off.

Jackson, adapting LOTR, then is left with a decision: 1) Spend the time and special effects and everything to put in a giant talking eagle at the council of Elrond just to have it do exposition as to why they can't fly the ring to Mordor and fly away, making the book fans happy. 2) Reduce the Eagle to a silent character so they remove the monologue, leaving the question open and maybe now asked more (because they can /see/ the eagle right there), but having the nod to the fans, or 3) Cut the eagle, leave the question unanswered, but also most likely not even asked because there is no eagle there to ask questions about, but disappointing fans who are certain that a giant eagle is supposed to be at the Council of Elrond.

BTW: Replace Eagle here with 'Tom Bombadil' and you'll be where I was in pre-LOTR movie runup fandom.

Yes, the eagle question is technically open...they could use giant eagles, and fans could point out the plot hole.  But it saves time, exposition, budget, special effects, and the risk of displaying talking animals that many audience members find goofy to just skip them.

Edited January 16, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

book: the Gates are opened with the leaf and then, when the party is fleeing from the black wind, Moiraine reaches for the gate and....no leaf! So, desperately she channels and opens them.

Message received: The Gates can be opened by everyone who knows the leaf-trick BUT the OP can also be used (with all the risks connected to using the OP in the Ways)

 

The reasoning behind this is, I think, that if they had opened the gate with a leaf, people would have wondered why they couldn't open them to get Mat.

 

To add to what @WhiteVeils says, to do exposition of why some can enter by channelling, why otherd need a leaf, would beg in my mind why eveveryone can't pick a leaf up at the nearest Waygate Ticket Station.

 

What would I have done?  Scrapped Waygates altogether and gone straight for Portal Stones.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by EmreY

[Lethira the second]

Or perhaps kept the way gates and have Loial open it because he knows what he's looking for.

[EmreY]

7 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Or perhaps kept the way gates and have Loial open it because he knows what he's looking for.

 

That wouldn't have worked with Harris not being able to join them.

[Lethira the second]

How so?

[EmreY]

Well, if Loial can open the gates, to enter and exit, the "Oh no, we can't open the gate to get Mat back without calling doom upon us" couldn't have been used as an excuse.

[Lethira the second]

What they should have done is left him back in TV, easy excuse.

 

Moiraine 'Can he ride?'

Lan 'No'

Moiraine 'Oh shit, we'll have to hide him somewhere because if he is the DR then we can't have him never the DO with all that darkness and stuff'

[EmreY]

7 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

What they should have done is left him back in TV, easy excuse.

 

Moiraine 'Can he ride?'

Lan 'No'

Moiraine 'Oh shit, we'll have to hide him somewhere because if he is the DR then we can't have him never the DO with all that darkness and stuff'

 

If the shooting for the Tar Valon part of the episode had not wrapped up before his departure, sure.

Edited January 16, 2022 by EmreY

[flinn]

10 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

If the shooting for the Tar Valon part of the episode had not wrapped up before his departure, sure.

 That would have been in the episode AT the gate. New shooting.. Mat not there..

 

 Moiraine: Where is Mat?

Lan: too sick to ride, still recovering. hid him at the local inn under a fake name and told him do not leave until we return.

 Moiraine: Looks like we must continue without him.

 

 

 It is really that simple.

[WhiteVeils]

21 minutes ago, flinn said:

 That would have been in the episode AT the gate. New shooting.. Mat not there..

 

 Moiraine: Where is Mat?

Lan: too sick to ride, still recovering. hid him at the local inn under a fake name and told him do not leave until we return.

 Moiraine: Looks like we must continue without him.

 

 

 It is really that simple.

The waygate exterior scene was already struck AND the Tar Valon set was already struck by the time it came to begin filming Episode 7. What was done with the end of Episode 6 was not filmed outside the Waygate, but spliced with footage filmed from INSIDE the Ways during the filming of Episode 7.   Nothing outside the Waygate was filmed after Harris had left the show.  That's why he doesn't respond much to their shouting.

Not simple at all. 

 

They didn't just use Loial to open the ways not to explain why they couldn't get Mat, but to give a reason why the Trollocs could use the Ways that people can put together. If they only have Loial do it, then it doesn't make much sense that Moiraine could with the power /AND/ Fain/the trollocs can with a leaf /AND/ the Ogiers could too. They could simplify it to just Moiraine for getting in and getting out, and they did.

 

 

You can choose not to like that...that's fine.  But it was a reasonable choice to limit options, and it doesn't change anything.

Edited January 16, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[flinn]

5 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

The waygate exterior scene was already struck AND the Tar Valon set was already struck by the time it came to begin filming Episode 7. What was done with the end of Episode 6 was not filmed outside the Waygate, but spliced with footage filmed from INSIDE the Ways during the filming of Episode 7.   Nothing outside the Waygate was filmed after Harris had left the show.  That's why he doesn't respond much to their shouting.

Not simple at all. 

 

They didn't just use Loial to open the ways not to explain why they couldn't get Mat, but to give a reason why the Trollocs could use the Ways that people can put together. If they only have Loial do it, then it doesn't make much sense that Moiraine could with the power /AND/ Fain/the trollocs can with a leaf /AND/ the Ogiers could too. They could simplify it to just Moiraine for getting in and getting out, and they did.

 

 

You can choose not to like that...that's fine.  But it was a reasonable choice to limit options, and it doesn't change anything.

 It is very interesting how you manage to come up with so many ways to defend the show, but simple things to make it better is so elusive to you.

[WhiteVeils]

4 minutes ago, flinn said:

 It is very interesting how you manage to come up with so many ways to defend the show, but simple things to make it better is so elusive to you.

I find it quite interesting you seem to think 'Better' is a measurable state, rather than a matter of opinion.  

 

When you say 'The creators chose to do X, Y, and Z' where this is something easily observable in the show, this is an observable and uncontested fact. 

When you say: 'XYZ Change is different from the books', this is a contested verifiable fact claim.  We can compare to the book and show, find out who is right.  One of us may remember incorrectly or interpret the books in different ways and overstate the case, but we should be able to reach a resolution about the facts...if we were honest with each other.

When you say: This change was made for no reason:  This is a contested and unverifiable fact claim.  You cannot know what is in the showrunner's head to know if there was a reason for the change or not.   The writer has claimed and has plenty of sources to it up, that he has read and loves the books very much, so we have reason by authority to believe he has reasons, so the claim he has no reason counters the expertise we have.  Other people can also offer potential reasons why a change was made. If you continue to believe that the change was made for no reason in spite of expertise and possible reasons given, then you are clinging to a hypothesis that is opposed by stronger pieces of evidence to the contrary until you provide someone who can prove your idea.

When you say:  This change is bad: This is an opinion. It belongs to you alone, and everyone else's opinion is equally valid.
When you say: Doing this thing this way will be better: This is also an opinion.  And it is no more valid than Rafe's opinion or my opinion, or anyone else's opinion.  I can assume that Rafe picked the options that, in his opinion, made the best possible show that he could make under the circumstances.  I do not have the data that informed all his decisions.

So, when I defend the show, I am providing possible reasons and explanations that something was done the way it was, reasons that Rafe and others made the choices they made. 

 

You can honestly say, "I would not have made those choices," or "In my opinion, doing it this way would have been better".  But your opinion is not definitive fact.

If Rafe, his opinion, would have found your solution "simpler" and "better for the story long term", and "within the parameters/unknowns that he had to deal with in writing long term", and, of course, if he had be able to think of it (you may be a singular genius after all) at the moments when those decisions occurred, maybe he would have done what you chose to do.  However, he did not. You have different opinions than he, or I, on what the better option is.  Yours is not more valid.