The Cultures of WoT in S1 and going forward

[7th age]

Besides characters, plot and lore the thing that stood out to me most in RJs work was the depth of the cultures he crafted.

While I am kind of ok with what they did in S1 concerning the first 3 things I cant say Im very satisfied concerning the last part.

Of the 3 major places we get to see at least 2 have been significantly changed.

The Two Rivers go from being prudish and cut off from the world to a much more modern feel ( I get why they did it and it doesnt bother me that much, but it IS a rather significant change).

The Tower seems fine to me so far.

And then we get to the Borderlands, that in my opinion really got the short draw. Yes there are manbuns and reddots, but thats about the extent of it.

From being rude to AS, to not being shown as at least somewhat militarily competent, to the whole letting women and children??? fight in what is portraied as a hopeless fight?

This isnt the BL I read about.

 

This makes me curious as to what changes, good or bad, might be in store for us in the coming seasons.

Specifically Im wondering on what we will get on AS laws and customs, especially regarding the novices and accepted, somehow I doubt we are going to see THAT much spanking etc. , what changes might they have regarding power rankings / status amongst envoys / the power of the amyrlin vs the hall/ the interplay between the Ajahs etc.

Really interested how they will choose to go about the weirder man/woman dynamics. Thinking Altara and Saldea here.

What will we get about the Aiel, what might be dropped? (anyone think of them when M. said about the corpse sometimes young BL try to challenge the blight)

Will they keep the Sea Folk as is?

...

 

 

 

 

ps. I looked for 7 pages and didnt find an appropriate thread, if there is one feel free to kick this over there.

[fra85uk]

I think that borderlands was huge failure in terms of world building (and they were quite easy to do).

I think that the next test will be in handling the Seanchan which are far more difficult to depict because they are quite complex and I fear that, as the authors lack any subtlety, they will go for "generic evil empire" and the first scenes strongly suggest that ( skull Helms replacing insectoid and child-killing tsunami)

[Gothic Flame]

All I can muster at the moment is Ebou Dar and marriage knives...and omg.

[EmreY]

TBH, I always found the "cultures" somewhat forced and superficial, other than maybe the Seanchan.

[fra85uk]

Just now, EmreY said:

TBH, I always found the "cultures" somewhat forced and superficial, other than maybe the Seanchan.

 Seanchan (and Aiel for me) definetely the ones with larger personality.

[MummyDust]

I honestly don't understand all the negative backlash toward the series. Yes, it is insanely off course with the books. No, it does not nearly come close to capturing the slightest bit of the depth of the world RJ created. That being said, it is entertaining... if you're able to remind yourself that not even a Hollywood series, let alone small screen show, could ever truly do this series proper justice. What Peter Jackson did for LOTR was phenomenal, yet still pales in comparison to the books ... and that was only a trilogy. With WOT, we're talking about 14 books, not including the New Spring prequel. 

 

My only real complaint about the series is the last episode of season one. No fight between Rand and Balzamon... just a quiet conversation? Extremely anticlimactic and poorly at that. And Moiraine being stilled just blows my mind because even with how far a series will stray from the books, and how can it not when the depth and scope of this series to me is unrivaled by any other, Moraine and her character arc is necessary no matter which direction the showrunnners want to take it. If they have Nynaeve healing stilling/gentling by season 2, I don't know how they can think to extend the series for years, as they hope to. 

 

Anyway, my point was a TV show could never do a series this deeply defined and woven any real justice, so you just have to not compare it to the books, and just try to be entertained by the screenplay. 

[7th age]

13 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 Seanchan (and Aiel for me) definetely the ones with larger personality.

True, but I would add the AS, their whole internal customs and history as well as their influence of the WEstlands as a whole is pretty fleshed out.

As for the other (southern and central)countries,  they are in many way similar but there are differences shown when they are relevant to the plot. I mean even the "sister nations" of Andor and Cairhien are portraied rather differently in terms of good governance, how they treat commoners and as a result how they view their Queens/Kings. I dont think Id be a fan of merging those two for example.

[AdamA]

Unique aspects of Seanchan, Aiel, and Sea Folk probably stay in, or at least I would definitely keep them. I hope they keep and expect them to keep the many unique approaches to leadership between Tarabon, Andor, Cairhien, Tear, and Illian, though I hope they don't have the 48 chapters of Elayne staffing the palace and going over the books with her accountant. But I think much of the more backwards to a contemporary audience stuff, i.e. spankings, Two Rivers prudishness, cat colony hierarchies in the Aes Sedai, Faile wanting Perrin to fight with her, everything that was cringy 30 years ago and has only gotten worse, probably hits the cutting room floor, so be ready for it. I really hope Tylin doesn't rape Mat, too. That was one of the worst parts of the books to me, almost enough to stop reading. And hopefully cultures are not defined largely by how much cleavage they show.

 

Look, I love Wheel of Time and think of Robert Jordan as possibly the all-time greatest worldbuilder of all authors out there that I'm aware of. But in a 4 million word series or whatever it ended up at, there's a lot that is not great and a stronger, more independent editor would have axed long ago.

 

Borderlanders, though, yeah, they got the Gondor treatment. Film and television just seems to want everyone to be militarily incompetent because it makes battles more dramatic. It's a terrible Hollywoodism that I wish screenwriters would stop with. Like Robert Jordan himself, I used to be a combat arms US Army officer, and military detail and general "correctness" about how battles play out and the planning involved, even just realities of living off the land in a camp, are so great and so much better than any other literature that isn't explicitly a war novel. It really shows that RJ1 knew what he was talking about. If RJ2 was smart, he'd leave all of that completely alone.

[RhienneAgain]

On 1/3/2022 at 2:19 PM, MummyDust said:

I honestly don't understand all the negative backlash toward the series. Yes, it is insanely off course with the books. No, it does not nearly come close to capturing the slightest bit of the depth of the world RJ created. That being said, it is entertaining... if you're able to remind yourself that not even a Hollywood series, let alone small screen show, could ever truly do this series proper justice. What Peter Jackson did for LOTR was phenomenal, yet still pales in comparison to the books ... and that was only a trilogy. With WOT, we're talking about 14 books, not including the New Spring prequel. 

 

My only real complaint about the series is the last episode of season one. No fight between Rand and Balzamon... just a quiet conversation? Extremely anticlimactic and poorly at that. And Moiraine being stilled just blows my mind because even with how far a series will stray from the books, and how can it not when the depth and scope of this series to me is unrivaled by any other, Moraine and her character arc is necessary no matter which direction the showrunnners want to take it. If they have Nynaeve healing stilling/gentling by season 2, I don't know how they can think to extend the series for years, as they hope to. 

 

Anyway, my point was a TV show could never do a series this deeply defined and woven any real justice, so you just have to not compare it to the books, and just try to be entertained by the screenplay. 

I think LotR succeeded (or largely succeeded) is because Peter Jackson was very adroit at recognising what the core or heart of the books was and leaving this untouched. Rafe Judkins seems less adept at this. For example I would suggest the extensive world with clearly defined cultures and nations is one of the characteristics that is at the heart of WoT and makes it stand out from other series.

[Ralph]

Just now, RhienneAgain said:

I think LotR succeeded (or largely succeeded) is because Peter Jackson was very adroit at recognising what the core or heart of the books was and leaving this untouched. Rafe Judkins seems less adept at this. For example I would suggest the extensive world with clearly defined cultures and nations is one of the characteristics that is at the heart of WoT and makes it stand out from other series.

 

Very much so

 

But this hardly features in EotW, where we only meet Andor and Shienar. In fact, I would suggest that in some ways the show has shown far more of this than the books. We missed all the mixed bathing in Shienar and separate bath chambers in Andor, but there are clear cultural differences between TR, TV, Shienar. 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

Unique aspects of Seanchan, Aiel, and Sea Folk probably stay in, or at least I would definitely keep them. I hope they keep and expect them to keep the many unique approaches to leadership between Tarabon, Andor, Cairhien, Tear, and Illian, though I hope they don't have the 48 chapters of Elayne staffing the palace and going over the books with her accountant. But I think much of the more backwards to a contemporary audience stuff, i.e. spankings, Two Rivers prudishness, cat colony hierarchies in the Aes Sedai, Faile wanting Perrin to fight with her, everything that was cringy 30 years ago and has only gotten worse, probably hits the cutting room floor, so be ready for it. I really hope Tylin doesn't rape Mat, too. That was one of the worst parts of the books to me, almost enough to stop reading. And hopefully cultures are not defined largely by how much cleavage they show.

 

Look, I love Wheel of Time and think of Robert Jordan as possibly the all-time greatest worldbuilder of all authors out there that I'm aware of. But in a 4 million word series or whatever it ended up at, there's a lot that is not great and a stronger, more independent editor would have axed long ago.

 

Borderlanders, though, yeah, they got the Gondor treatment. Film and television just seems to want everyone to be militarily incompetent because it makes battles more dramatic. It's a terrible Hollywoodism that I wish screenwriters would stop with. Like Robert Jordan himself, I used to be a combat arms US Army officer, and military detail and general "correctness" about how battles play out and the planning involved, even just realities of living off the land in a camp, are so great and so much better than any other literature that isn't explicitly a war novel. It really shows that RJ1 knew what he was talking about. If RJ2 was smart, he'd leave all of that completely alone.

I agree that the World is one of the things that makes WoT special, and the detail, and cultures. But I expect we will lose 2 of the Western cities and cultures completely. Illian and Arad Doman get my vote. I also expect we lose a lot of Tear and almost all of Camelyn. And We lose the Sea Folk, cause boats are really expensive sets to fake.

 

I expect the Seanchan will be inhuman monsters in Season 2, with more humanity in Ebou Dar with Mat. (5? 6?)  I also think they'll tweak the Aiel from the books a bit, in order to move them farther from the Fremen. Not sure how that will happen, tho.

 

Your last paragraph is really good as well, but I kind of thought the whole point was to avoid anything resembling drama in combat situations. So that doesn't make for good dramas on screen. And while the correctness of the battles as written was great, I can't help but think the nuances you reference are both difficult to show in a TV setting, and would be missed by most of the audience

 

Oh, and for the record, if RJ2 were smart enough to leave even the small nuances completely alone, this board would be a very different place ? 

 

[RhienneAgain]

I think if Egeanin makes the cut she will be useful in humanising the Seanchan, I think.

[DojoToad]

On 1/3/2022 at 9:19 AM, MummyDust said:

I honestly don't understand all the negative backlash toward the series. Yes, it is insanely off course with the books. No, it does not nearly come close to capturing the slightest bit of the depth of the world RJ created. That being said, it is entertaining... if you're able to remind yourself that not even a Hollywood series, let alone small screen show, could ever truly do this series proper justice. What Peter Jackson did for LOTR was phenomenal, yet still pales in comparison to the books ... and that was only a trilogy. With WOT, we're talking about 14 books, not including the New Spring prequel. 

 

My only real complaint about the series is the last episode of season one. No fight between Rand and Balzamon... just a quiet conversation? Extremely anticlimactic and poorly at that. And Moiraine being stilled just blows my mind because even with how far a series will stray from the books, and how can it not when the depth and scope of this series to me is unrivaled by any other, Moraine and her character arc is necessary no matter which direction the showrunnners want to take it. If they have Nynaeve healing stilling/gentling by season 2, I don't know how they can think to extend the series for years, as they hope to. 

 

Anyway, my point was a TV show could never do a series this deeply defined and woven any real justice, so you just have to not compare it to the books, and just try to be entertained by the screenplay. 

Divergences from the book aside, this show is not entertaining for me.  Poorly written, poorly shot and just bad overall feel - but that is my personal opinion, and enough to stop watching it (which I had after episode 4).

 

I hope it gets resurrected as TV or movie somewhere down the road with a different team.  Until then, at least they hit the sweet spot for some folks.

 

But more on topic with cultures - I think the show loses uniqueness between the various nations, but season 2 should show more.  I'll have to read about it here...

Edited January 5, 2022 by DojoToad

[Spiritweaver1]

Some good thoughts in this thread.  Based on Season 1 I believe the cultural differences will be the last thing on the writers to do list.  I agree something will have to be done with the Aiel to avoid Fremen comparisons.  If they have any nerve they will just lean into it.  Not sure about the sweat tents cause we aren't doing much nudity.   I am not sure but what they won't collapse Cairhien and Andor.  The same with Ebou Dar and Tanchico.  Anyway I don't see them spending precious time on all the nations and city states RJ invented.

 

I think there will be generic borderlander culture which hopefully will be improved over Season 1.  The individual nations disappear.

 

I am not sure about the Seanchan but tend to agree they will get painted as the big bad until Matt shows up if he actually does.   He could be one of the surprise deaths Rafe was talking about. 

 

I hope we get some DF/Forsaken culture.  Always helps to know your enemy. 

 

Anyway time to roll the dice!

[Humbugged2]

On 1/5/2022 at 12:00 AM, Ralph said:

 

Very much so

 

But this hardly features in EotW, where we only meet Andor and Shienar. In fact, I would suggest that in some ways the show has shown far more of this than the books. We missed all the mixed bathing in Shienar and separate bath chambers in Andor, but there are clear cultural differences between TR, TV, Shienar. 

The mixed bathing is at the start of Great Hunt

[Humbugged2]

On 1/5/2022 at 1:24 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

I agree that the World is one of the things that makes WoT special, and the detail, and cultures. But I expect we will lose 2 of the Western cities and cultures completely. Illian and Arad Doman get my vote. I also expect we lose a lot of Tear and almost all of Camelyn. And We lose the Sea Folk, cause boats are really expensive sets to fake.

 

I expect the Seanchan will be inhuman monsters in Season 2, with more humanity in Ebou Dar with Mat. (5? 6?)  I also think they'll tweak the Aiel from the books a bit, in order to move them farther from the Fremen. Not sure how that will happen, tho.

 

Your last paragraph is really good as well, but I kind of thought the whole point was to avoid anything resembling drama in combat situations. So that doesn't make for good dramas on screen. And while the correctness of the battles as written was great, I can't help but think the nuances you reference are both difficult to show in a TV setting, and would be missed by most of the audience

 

Oh, and for the record, if RJ2 were smart enough to leave even the small nuances completely alone, this board would be a very different place ? 

 

No we did not get Camelyn because they woul have to retention money for 4 actors . And boats are 'easy' to whip up as models as they did here with the Seanchan

[SingleMort]

On 1/5/2022 at 9:44 AM, RhienneAgain said:

I think if Egeanin makes the cut she will be useful in humanising the Seanchan, I think.

Think she needs Domon to help with that. I always felt he brought out the best in her.

[ArrylT]

Not really culture specific but wasnt sure which thread to share on - Moderators are welcome to move it. ?

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

On 1/1/2022 at 7:02 PM, 7th age said:

Besides characters, plot and lore the thing that stood out to me most in RJs work was the depth of the cultures he crafted.

While I am kind of ok with what they did in S1 concerning the first 3 things I cant say Im very satisfied concerning the last part.

Of the 3 major places we get to see at least 2 have been significantly changed.

The Two Rivers go from being prudish and cut off from the world to a much more modern feel ( I get why they did it and it doesnt bother me that much, but it IS a rather significant change).

The Tower seems fine to me so far.

And then we get to the Borderlands, that in my opinion really got the short draw. Yes there are manbuns and reddots, but thats about the extent of it.

From being rude to AS, to not being shown as at least somewhat militarily competent, to the whole letting women and children??? fight in what is portraied as a hopeless fight?

This isnt the BL I read about.

 

This makes me curious as to what changes, good or bad, might be in store for us in the coming seasons.

Specifically Im wondering on what we will get on AS laws and customs, especially regarding the novices and accepted, somehow I doubt we are going to see THAT much spanking etc. , what changes might they have regarding power rankings / status amongst envoys / the power of the amyrlin vs the hall/ the interplay between the Ajahs etc.

Really interested how they will choose to go about the weirder man/woman dynamics. Thinking Altara and Saldea here.

What will we get about the Aiel, what might be dropped? (anyone think of them when M. said about the corpse sometimes young BL try to challenge the blight)

Will they keep the Sea Folk as is?

...

 

 

 

 

ps. I looked for 7 pages and didnt find an appropriate thread, if there is one feel free to kick this over there.

I am not sure I saw anything in the way of culture in the show, it’s all a mishmash of different regions and cultures shoved together…Little in the way of different regional food, music, books, art, weapons, clothing, armour, accents, manners or anything else really..There are costumes like the Whitecloaks, Seanchan and Aiel,  but its all incredibly bland stuff…

 

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

On 1/5/2022 at 3:41 PM, DojoToad said:

Divergences from the book aside, this show is not entertaining for me.  Poorly written, poorly shot and just bad overall feel - but that is my personal opinion, and enough to stop watching it (which I had after episode 4).

 

I hope it gets resurrected as TV or movie somewhere down the road with a different team.  Until then, at least they hit the sweet spot for some folks.

 

But more on topic with cultures - I think the show loses uniqueness between the various nations, but season 2 should show more.  I'll have to read about it here...

It won’t…I don’t think this will even achieve a cult status enough to achieve a reboot a decade or three down the line…You might get a cartoon, but frankly I can’t see Amazon relinquishing the IP to an extent it would be financially viable.

 

It’s a huge shame what they have done, it will be the end of it within a few years followed by near permanent obscurity…Massive shame.

[fra85uk]

2 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

It won’t…I don’t think this will even achieve a cult status enough to achieve a reboot a decade or three down the line…You might get a cartoon, but frankly I can’t see Amazon relinquishing the IP to an extent it would be financially viable.

 

It’s a huge shame what they have done, it will be the end of it within a few years followed by near permanent obscurity…Massive shame.

 

Well, at least they screwed it from the beginning. GoT got me invested for seasons and then, in a very GOT-ish way, stabbed me in the back ruining the overall experience.

I have to thank Rafe for not doing that and going directly for the dumpster fire. Credit where is due.

 

Just imagine Lady Amalisa not winning Tarwin gap in S1 but tarmon gai'don in S8. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by fra85uk

[Raal Gurniss]

10 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

Well, at least they screwed it from the beginning. GoT got me invested for seasons and then, in a very GOT-ish way, stabbed me in the back ruining the overall experience.

I have to thank Rafe for not doing that and going directly for the dumpster fire. Credit where is due.

 

Just imagine Lady Amalisa not winning Tarwin gap in S1 but tarmon gai'don in S8. 

If WoT gets to S8 who is to say Lady Amalisa wouldn’t be the key to winning? I think the focus isn’t going be Rand or male even….That’s been made quite clear from the start….I suspect if the show does somehow get to the end Rand will falter and focus on one or more of the women turning the tide….Or they will go full Dragon Reborn as Female(most likely Nynaeve)with Rand being the distraction/subterfuge…Or perhaps “the power was within us all” route.

 

Personally I can’t see the series running to the full extent though.

 

 

But you are right that the good news is that at least the season saves people from watching any more.