S1E8: The Eye of the World v2

[DaddyFinn]

6 hours ago, EmreY said:

How does one comment on chunks and not the whole text?

Either select the specific bits of a post

 

 

Or quote the whole thing and add a few new lines inside the quote below the part you want to comment on and it should separate that and leave the rest of the quote below it

 

2 hours ago, EasingTheBadger said:

I view this as a fantasy show and if anyone can accept Shiaine's blood snow acrobatics during labor as plausible,

Like this

 

2 hours ago, EasingTheBadger said:

Surely being in two places at once is not out of the realm of what could be taken for possible.

 

Sorry, @EasingTheBadger I used your post as an example

Edited January 2, 2022 by DaddyFinn

[EmreY]

@DaddyFinn Thank you!

[Weird_Old_Lady]

5 hours ago, Testeria said:

 

I'm no warder but when I was guarding over my child there was no chance that any woman, not even my wife - would distract me from my duty. I mean - when my son got sick in some place in Brasil we didn't even think about sex because there was something more important going on and it is hard to relax when Your mind is just not fully in it.

 

And they are heading for the final battle that could decide the fate of humanity and he is like ok, lets bang the girl because who cares?

 

I mean - just watch the Hidden Fortress - there is this soldier who tries to protect a girl and he fails again and again but from every scene it is obvious that her safety is all that matters to him - Is it even comparable to what Rafe shows us in WoT?

 

We know how to show dedication and duty in the movie, it is not some rocket science. And Daniel Henney is good enough actor that he could portrait this if that was the intention of the showrunner. But instead he wanted to show us that for this man having sex with the girl is more important then his duty, his cause and the fate of the world. Maybe "winning" and then dumping the girl made Lan more interesting character but it surely made him worse warder.

 

 

 

I get what you mean. But I just don't see it the same way. I see Lan assuming he is going to die the next day, and also Nynaeve (not "the girl". Goodness that sounds demeaning. She's a woman and not a child ).... Moiraine tells him he should say his goodbyes and that she likes the Wisdom, much the same way he told Moiraine to give Siuan his love when she was off to play. 

[Weird_Old_Lady]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

I have to question this.

 

You are saying Moiraine got rid of Lan. But this was before Rand came to her and told her that he was the Dragon Reborn, that makes no sense at all.

I think if none of them had come to here she would have snuck off with one or more of the 3 that were there and the right age.

 

I don't really know obviously, it just seems to like up for me. I think the 2scenes are mirroring each other and in both of them Moiraine is getting what she wants. She knows how to play people . Even Lan.

[Mailman]

3 hours ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

I think if none of them had come to here she would have snuck off with one or more of the 3 that were there and the right age.

 

I don't really know obviously, it just seems to like up for me. I think the 2scenes are mirroring each other and in both of them Moiraine is getting what she wants. She knows how to play people . Even Lan.

so you think shes going to risk the world that its not Nynaeve (despite the fact that she has been the most powerful of the group) just to save Lan

[Guest Testeria]

5 hours ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

I get what you mean. But I just don't see it the same way. I see Lan assuming he is going to die the next day, and also Nynaeve (not "the girl". Goodness that sounds demeaning.

 

On purpose. He is like 20 years older to her and a worldly character, while she is in her early 20s and lived in small village in the end of the world. He sleeps with her and dumps the silly girl next morning with some eloquent mambo jumbo. I know they have some epic romance in the books but from the perspective of someone who didn't read the books this is it: he used her and dumped her - and all this when he really should prepare for the final battle. I mean - even sports people do not have sex several days before competition, he should know better.

 

And really even his speech sound silly in the show because:

 - we were told many times that Wisdoms never marry,

 - we were told that he believes that they are going to die.

So he sounds like typical american guy comforting village girl he just used for his pleasure.

 

I know that You people know the books in and out so I'm trying to show You how it looks for someone who don't.

 

Really if they wanted to show him like he is in the books, he should give his speech BEFORE they slept and then sit outside Morraine's room and start sharpening his sword. Chemistry between actors was good enough for us to understand that they WANT to have sex. In my opinion it would be much better for integrity of characters if they didn't.

 

EDIT: just watched this review on "Books and Bianca" of the show where a woman sees his behavior just the same.

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Testeria
added link to review

[Gothic Flame]

Lan allowing Moiraine to risk getting killed which in turn sends him to that special Hell where warders go for letting their Aes Sedai die before them..until he gets put out of his misery usually by a sympathetic trolloc or fade....?

 

Sounds legit.

[Gothic Flame]

3 hours ago, Testeria said:

 

On purpose. He is like 20 years older to her and a worldly character, while she is in her early 20s and lived in small village in the end of the world. He sleeps with her and dumps the silly girl next morning with some eloquent mambo jumbo. I know they have some epic romance in the books but from the perspective of someone who didn't read the books this is it: he used her and dumped her - and all this when he really should prepare for the final battle. I mean - even sports people do not have sex several days before competition, he should know better.

 

And really even his speech sound silly in the show because:

 - we were told many times that Wisdoms never marry,

 - we were told that he believes that they are going to die.

So he sounds like typical american guy comforting village girl he just used for his pleasure.

 

I know that You people know the books in and out so I'm trying to show You how it looks for someone who don't.

 

Really if they wanted to show him like he is in the books, he should give his speech BEFORE they slept and then sit outside Morraine's room and start sharpening his sword. Chemistry between actors was good enough for us to understand that they WANT to have sex. In my opinion it would be much better for integrity of characters if they didn't.

 

EDIT: just watched this review on "Books and Bianca" of the show where a woman sees his behavior just the same.

 

Wow...she pretty much deconstructs and destroys the whole season.

 

[Guest Testeria]

21 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Wow...she pretty much deconstructs and destroys the whole season.

 

Also I recommend her take on other episodes, she has very sharp mind and she points out all inconsistencies mercilessly.

 

[flinn]

2 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Wow...she pretty much deconstructs and destroys the whole season.

 

 Personally, I feel like anyone who is truly being honest knows this show is easy to deconstruct and destroy. Too easy with all the bs flung against the wall.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

26 minutes ago, flinn said:

 Personally, I feel like anyone who is truly being honest knows this show is easy to deconstruct and destroy. Too easy with all the bs flung against the wall.

This is true. Think about how many people believe in the Bible but all in slightly different ways. The Bible is incredibly easy to deconstruct. It's just a book, after all. You can read it or not and take it as seriously as you'd like. Same with WoT. 

 

I remember being as upset with Bible's inconsistency the same way some of these folks are upset about WoT. Only the individual can decide if the anger is worth it. 

 

You could just relax and take it as it is, take the bits you like and hold them close, let the other bits drift away ... Build your own reasons to watch ... Or not watch. It's all peace to me.

 

It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how .

 

Anyone want to join::

The Cult of The Wisdom, Nynaeve, Great Protector of us all. May her Love and Ferocity keep us Safe forever.

[Ralph]

And anyone who wants can do the same to the books

[Guest Testeria]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

And anyone who wants can do the same to the books

 

So basically no matter the quality because there is no gradation at all?

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

So basically no matter the quality because there is no gradation at all?

No. The specific point that anyone who wants to ask questions without bothering to think about the answers will not be happy applies to anything in life

[Guest Testeria]

10 minutes ago, Ralph said:

No. The specific point that anyone who wants to ask questions without bothering to think about the answers will not be happy applies to anything in life

Not sure if I understand what You mean. For example similar problems were raised against "The Witcher": "woke casting", changes to the story, changes to characters. Still I liked the show better because of Cavil's Witcher, which was still true to the original.

Here I'm not even sure who is the main protagonist of the show? Rand is not because he is not central to the story, had no development whatsoever and we don't even know what really drives him (even in the final scene he only expresses what Egwene wants, not what he wants; do he want to have this child? we don't know). Egwene? Not so much. Nyn or Morraine, probably - but the absolutely horrible final for Morraine and Nyn that was used as battery without any agency whatsoever questions even that.

 

So really - I can only enjoy the show if I DO NOT THINK about the answers at all. But maybe I misunderstood You completely because English is not my first language. Sorry if I did.

[bombadillio]

Spoiler

On 1/1/2022 at 12:34 PM, Testeria said:

Spoiler

ORIGINAL QUESTION

In the show they go to great length to show him as inept bodyguard - during first season he failed at least 6 times:

 - in ep. 1 when Morraine got hit by enormous blade to her chest (a wound that would easily kill normal human)

 - when Nyn puts a blade to his throat,

 - when he fails to protect Morraine when she was shielding Logain,

 - when he fails to spot the whole (Logain) army comming,

 - when he fails to defend his friend from himself,

 - when he allows Morraine to enter ways unprotected,

 - when he fails to protect the team in the ways,

 - when he allows Morraine to leave to the eye because he was busy with the girl.

.....

Also - about the last thing - it really feels cheap for him to trick a girl to sleep with him and then the very next morning just dump her with his "sorry babe, it was fun and all but I need to go to work, You know how it is". 

Seems we have a lot of debate going on with what happened in the books to the show, character misrepresentations. @Testeria I hear your pain and suffering, but @KakitaOCU is giving you a really good response and it took me a long time to say, the show is not the books.

 

 

On 1/1/2022 at 5:02 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Spoiler

You're arguing Lan should magically defy the laws of physics and reality.  If he's not on the wrong side then the trollocs on said "wrong" side stab Moraine.  You cannot be in two places at once.  You're literally complaining that something completely reasonable in a fight against multiple opponents happened and further that Lan couldn't break reality to still avoid it.

 

He tried to, rushing forward to try and get to the front.  Again, you're complaint seems to be Lan is not Superhuman.  Bankai Ichigo from Bleach would block all the shrapnel.  A normal human, no matter how good, would not.  
 

He's not part of the army, he's not in charge of scouting, the scouts in question are other Warders whom he trusts.  Now your complaint is he's not parranoid and dismissive of people with similar training and backgrounds to him.  Lovely.

 

Who says he doesn't?  But your argument now is that it's unreasonable that someone he trusts implicitly who is trained to a very similar level as him could potentially slip something in a drink.  Your complaint is not realistic.

It's not like Moraine is completely safe in the fortress.  It's not like Moraine has and frequently uses a power that makes him unaware of her presence and so he factually could not know about it until morning when he went to check on her.  

Spoiler

Lan Changes and the response for others to follow

23 hours ago, Testeria said:

 

No. I'm arguing that if Rafe is CHANGING something from the books it is because he want to tell us something very important about our heroes. And the message about Lan is VERY different from the one in the books.

.....

If that was some kind of documentary I would all be with You. But this is not. Rafe CONSTRUCTED the whole scene to show us how Lan fails. Again and again. He could easily show him as top swordsman and dedicated to his duty - but instead he showed him as soft, playful mediocre guy from like me or You who just happen to travel with this blue lady. If You want an example how to show someone is a great dedicated swordmaster and still fails - just watch Kurosawa. Here we have completely different message.

.........

Of course she is not completely safe in the fortress. Why should she be? She is not safe even in White Tower, why here?

........

I was told on this forum that she masked their bond for him to bang the girl in privacy. So he left his duty for the girl and only then she masked her presence and he didn't care because girl was obviously more important.

......

So again - what message Rafe is sending to us when constructing this whole scene? Do he want to show us Lan as super dedicated Warder, sworn to his duty like in the books? Or is he showing us something else?

 

I know that You are very active defending the show and that You can always find some interpretation that can be at least a little compatible with the books and I admire You for that. But in my understanding it is not important for someone who is not a book lover. I take the show for what is shown to me, not if there is some strange interpretation that would make it compatible with the original.

 

In TV show every scene has a meaning, it sends us a message - and this message is very different to what is in the book. I agree with You that it is possible to always find some interpretation that would make it compatible with original material but this is not my point. I judge it on its own merit and what I've seen is very different from what I read right now. I'm not even saying it is worse because it obviously depends on what You like. It is just different.

 

No bad feelings here, I will not continue this argument because I understand that many people are very personal about the series and I'm not. Meant no harm.

 

 

Not that I want to open your can of worms, but:

1. Issue brought up: Lan not being the badass master warrior of every form of warfare as shown in the books:

    I agree, the only message that goes around his ability to not track Moraine correctly...The show making it that he has always tracked her by the bond & now she is in the blight. If even a glimmer of the books holds, the blight shifts & with the bond gone, he never paid attention to her any other way....

"Tell" Far Fetched but only conclusion I could draw from the book changes

 

2. Fails to protect Morraine when she was shielding Logain,

     Not sure really how he would guard her from Shrapnel as it happened instantaneously. 

3. When he fails to spot the whole (Logain) army coming,

    I agree with @KakitaOCU, Lan was in a camp with an army of warders and Aes Sedai, he was not the one on Guard duty. What the question should really be asking is, WTF happened that a whole army of Warders was not scouting while guarding Logain. That is the real question.

 

4. When he allows Morraine to enter ways unprotected,

    Change from Books, in the books, Lan is always the first one to enter, but remember in the books you did not need the power to open the ways. Not defending Lan, but the show has changed all aspects of almost every character we know and it is a completely different story with hopefully the same ending. 

 

5. When he fails to protect the team in the ways,

    I may be wrong but the Trolloc came from down below. Which also should be impossible as you cant climb anything it is a dead drop down.... So not sure how he would have caught something from below and since they can't use the power they cant shield. I also agree the ways were a WTF moment.

 

6. - when he allows Morraine to leave to the eye because he was busy with the girl.

I think Moraine is the one who left him intentionally & Lan did nothing wrong. Moraine is going to do whatever the "F" she wants to do and always has in the books. To me this was quite in character, but I was more surprised he just did not ride off into the Blight immediately. For we know they are going into the Eye and the Eye unlike the books is a stationary place so TECHNICALLY it should be quite easy to find by this new logic system of the show.

 

I think a lot of book readers (like me) are more complaining that so many liberties were taken when the show was presented a very different way. To me this is a bait and switch. If they had given any spoiler like this prior, Amazon for sure would know many book readers would not watch and shut down the show before it began. 

 

But I would think that Robert Jordan's wife, TOR and all people who have handled the intellectual property are VERY aware of what was done with the show. The fact that there is silence from them, says clearly RAFO (AKA WAFO - Watch and Find OUT) 

 

Bit odd the silence but what else could we gleam as they are quite vocal when someone crosses the boundary.

Edited January 2, 2022 by bombadillio
Spoler placement

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, bombadillio said:

3. When he fails to spot the whole (Logain) army coming,

    I agree with @KakitaOCU, Lan was in a camp with an army of warders and Aes Sedai, he was not the one on Guard duty. What the question should really be asking is, WTF happened that a whole army of Warders was not scouting while guarding Logain. That is the real question.

Actually, I thought about this.  They would have had to know the army didn't break up and were on the move.  Why not leave "Gaps" to draw them in for an attack so they can be dealt with instead of letting them roam all over the place doing who knows what.

Examples: L. E. Modesitt Jr: The White Order: a character finds a smuggling tunnel in the sewers and finds out it is never boarded up.  Because then the next tunnel would be... who knows.
Example 2: Infinity War.  The enemy starts circling the shields on Wakanda trying to get in anywhere.  Which means they'd be impossible to defend against entirely.  So they deliberately open one place so the enemy stays focused where they can try and manage it.
 

1 hour ago, bombadillio said:

Bit odd the silence but what else could we gleam as they are quite vocal when someone crosses the boundary.

 

We also know that Sanderson specifically is allowed to be critical and has been on some moments.

[Guest Testeria]

48 minutes ago, bombadillio said:

2. Fails to protect Morraine when she was shielding Logain,

     Not sure really how he would guard her from Shrapnel as it happened instantaneously.

 

Just this because I think I'm misunderstood here.

The whole "shrapnel" thing didn't happen instantaneously. They MADE IT UP - so it happened precisely as fast as they wanted it to be.

If they wanted to show Lan as good bodyguard, he would be there and shrapnel would be slow enough that Lan could shield Morraine just in time. But they wanted to show something else.

 

Please do not treat scenes in the movie as something that happened. Nothing in the show happened, every scene was invented to show us something. Here they wanted to show us that Lan is unable to be there and protect Morraine and how Stepin's anger endangered the lives of many Aes Sedai and how Nyn saved Lan (and her supposed feelings for him). ?

 

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Testeria said:

Just this because I think I'm misunderstood here.

The whole "shrapnel" thing didn't happen instantaneously. They MADE IT UP - so it happened precisely as fast as they wanted it to be.

If they wanted to show Lan as good bodyguard, he would be there and shrapnel would be slow enough that Lan could shield Morraine just in time. But they wanted to show something else.

...  If they wanted to show Lan as a good bodyguard they would have altered the laws of physics to shrapnel flies slower...

You know, they did decide the scene, but you're putting WAY too much thought into tertiary things.  The scene was likely decided "Alright, so Steppin swings his axes, Logain disintegrates them and flings the shards of metal everywhere."  

I seriously doubt "Does this make Lan a bad bodyguard?"  Came up as a question.

[Guest Testeria]

10 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The scene was likely decided "Alright, so Steppin swings his axes, Logain disintegrates them and flings the shards of metal everywhere."  

I seriously doubt "Does this make Lan a bad bodyguard?"  Came up as a question.

 

Oh, I'm sure You are right about that. ? This show is a mess, is it.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Testeria said:

 

Oh, I'm sure You are right about that. ? This show is a mess, is it.

That's not a sign of the show being a mess.  

What I mean is the goal was going to be looking at things like "Show Steppin's rage and lack of critical thought.  Show injuries severe enough for Nynaeve to heal and have it be significantly impressive.  Show Logain's power at smashing through 2 of the stronger Aes Sedai's shield."

 

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, Testeria said:

 

Oh, I'm sure You are right about that. ? This show is a mess, is it.

There is plenty of things in this show that could be considered a mess.  Lan not being able to stop shrapnel from hitting Moiraine isn't one of them.

[bombadillio]

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Actually, I thought about this.  They would have had to know the army didn't break up and were on the move.  Why not leave "Gaps" to draw them in for an attack so they can be dealt with instead of letting them roam all over the place doing who knows what.

Examples: L. E. Modesitt Jr: The White Order: a character finds a smuggling tunnel in the sewers and finds out it is never boarded up.  Because then the next tunnel would be... who knows.
Example 2: Infinity War.  The enemy starts circling the shields on Wakanda trying to get in anywhere.  Which means they'd be impossible to defend against entirely.  So they deliberately open one place so the enemy stays focused where they can try and manage it.
 

 

We also know that Sanderson specifically is allowed to be critical and has been on some moments.

I love that you compare L.E. Modesitt. He is my other go to writer, I dont think he gets enough respect. I just find the whole show odd if you read all the books as you understand the message and vibe. My friends who all watched the show and did not read enjoyed it ?, but they also are not analyzing the magic system, why Person A could not Stop B, etc. 

 

I think that we as readers who know the characters , what they represent, and understand them, are getting more upset as we have lived their lives for over 23+ years. Then after (if your like me LOTS of ? Re-re-reads), all this time you are like Why are you butchering my vision. Sadly it seems we all had the same vision so its annoying the Show couldn't keep it Real

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

There is plenty of things in this show that could be considered a mess.  Lan not being able to stop shrapnel from hitting Moiraine isn't one of them.

@Testeria for sure. @Skippagreed. Bottom line is Lan was the ultimate Warrior, Tam messed stuff up. Now both struggle to be one of the highest level warriors. We'll see what Season 2 brings.

 

EDIT: I did think though... IN the books Lan was ALWAYS   doubling back and covering everyones (Moiraine's) tracks over the years. So.... we have a serious lower level squad ?

Edited January 3, 2022 by bombadillio

[Ralph]

10 hours ago, Testeria said:

Not sure if I understand what You mean. For example similar problems were raised against "The Witcher": "woke casting", changes to the story, changes to characters. Still I liked the show better because of Cavil's Witcher, which was still true to the original.

Here I'm not even sure who is the main protagonist of the show? Rand is not because he is not central to the story, had no development whatsoever and we don't even know what really drives him (even in the final scene he only expresses what Egwene wants, not what he wants; do he want to have this child? we don't know). Egwene? Not so much. Nyn or Morraine, probably - but the absolutely horrible final for Morraine and Nyn that was used as battery without any agency whatsoever questions even that.

 

So really - I can only enjoy the show if I DO NOT THINK about the answers at all. But maybe I misunderstood You completely because English is not my first language. Sorry if I did.

I apologise if I wasn't clear. It is not because of your English which is excellent

 

I was responding specifically to the two com enters who said that it is so easy to ask questions on the show that cannot be answered

[Guest Testeria]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

There is plenty of things in this show that could be considered a mess.  Lan not being able to stop shrapnel from hitting Moiraine isn't one of them.

 

First those are not shrapnel. Those are magic and they can make it work however they want. Morraine has to dance for a minute to run the spell, Egwene just touches Nyn and heals her, Nyn explode with power. They do what they want with magic. And even with the "shrapnel" they could make him anticipate the thing and act before it happened. He was a warder for years, it would not be strange if he knows the thing.

 

Second I've clearly shown that they are consistent with showing Lan as unable to bodyguard Morraine. Scene after scene - he fails and this is not an accident. This is what they wanted to show us. They are CHANGING things from the books to show us that Lan is unable to bodyguard Morraine like they did in ep. 1.

 

Of course the show is a mess (just look at magic system) so it is possible as KakitaOCU suggests that they just really do not care about that, that he is a collateral damage. But considering how consistent they are with this - I suspect that this "clumsy Lan" is intentional.

 

Doesn't really matter considering other changes to the show.... sorry for the rant, I will try to not go back to this anymore ?